The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

ToBeLoved

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1 Tim 1:19
holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.

John 15
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned...10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Like a branch. Like.
 
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Thursday

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Works in general.

Because there is not the law in the New Covenant and sacrifices.

He is not speaking of works in general, which is why he said this:

1 Cor 7:19
19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
 
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Steeno7

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He is not speaking of works in general, which is why he said this:

1 Cor 7:19
19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

He is speaking of works for salvation, and how that dog won't hunt. Otherwise you would have the right to boast.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Please provide any verse that says so. That's just a very common claim by those who have rejected the promise of God but cannot prove that claim.

How does one "throw away" their salvation?"
1 Tim 1:19
holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.
You're going to have to prove from Scripture that losing one's faith equates to losing one's salvation. As far as I've seen, that's just an assumption.

John 15
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned...10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
To remain in Christ's love, and to abide in Him is about fellowship, not relationship.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
The metaphor is an agricultural one. And the point of ch 11 is Israel, the chosen of God. They were chosen for service. But those who don't believe can't be of service to God. That's the point.

Further, between Rom 6:23 and 11:29, Paul never used the word "gift". So when he penned 11:29 about God's gifts being irrevocable, he was referring to what he had already described as a gift of God.

That would not only include eternal life as being irrevocable, but also justification, from 3:24 and 5:15,16,17.

So, justification AND eternal life are irrevocable gifts of God.

The verses you provided do NOT support your claim that one can throw away their salvation. Faith, yes. That's called apostasy. But no one can throw away their salvation.

You know why? Because we are held in God's hand. Not the other way around, as you seem to assume. John 10:28,29
 
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Rick Otto

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So, if you go out and kill someone you could blame that on God?
Blame and responsibility are two different things.
I am responsible for what my children are blamed or praised for.
I am to blame for what I do. God is responsible for everything that happens inside His creation.
 
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Rick Otto

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Actually, important enough to understand. Which the reformed don't. The "us" in 1:4 is the same "us" as found in 1:19. The reformed don't like that much.
Why not? This is news to me. Never heard about it in the 16yrs I've considered myself reformed.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Why not? This is news to me. Never heard about it in the 16yrs I've considered myself reformed.
What is news to you? That the "us" in Eph 1:4 is the same "us" as found in Eph 1:19?

The point is this: Eph 1:4 isn't about God choosing or electing anyone to salvation. In fact, God has chosen or elected BELIEVERS to be holy and blameless.

Election is about being chosen for privilege and service. Not about salvation.
 
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Rick Otto

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QUOTE="FreeGrace2, post: 69241022, member: 319176"]What is news to you? That the "us" in Eph 1:4 is the same "us" as found in Eph 1:19?

No, that is patently obvious. This is what is news to me:

"The reformed don't like that much."

Else my "why not?" Would then refer to your assertion about who "us" is.
The point is this: Eph 1:4 isn't about God choosing or electing anyone to salvation. In fact, God has chosen or elected BELIEVERS to be holy and blameless.

Election is about being chosen for privilege and service. Not about salvation.
I will give you one more chance to answer my question, and one chance to substantiate your assertion that:


"The point is this: Eph 1:4 isn't about God choosing or electing anyone to salvation.

I don't have the patience for such confusion mixed with casual disregard.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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That you are even be able to type those words is startling to me. . . It's not like you are missing the mark a little to the left or right. You miss the entire target! By your owns words, you are missing Christianity completely!

You mean, I am missing popular American Christianity. But Jesus said narrow is the way and few be there that finds it.
Also, my words, "Believers have to do what is right in order to be in God's good graces." is shocking to you because you do not understand the many dire warnings in Scripture given to us if we fail to be faithful to the Lord (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 7:21) (Matthew 7:26-27) (1 John 3:15) (Titus 1:16) (Revelation 21:8). But please know that it is not ME but is God working in me to do of His good will and pleasure (which is a result of my surrendering to Him).

Which church or denomination are you part of, Jason?

I am non-denominational (As it says in my profile). The thing is that a building where people gather under a certain name is not a church. God's people are the church. While it is not wrong per say to gather in a building like most people today (Where both believers and unbelievers would meet). Only believers (not unbelievers) in the New Covenant gathered in fellowship in homes over the Lord's supper (Which was a meal and not snack). In the New Covenant, witnessing was done usually by groups of two and they would go to houses of all nations to spread the gospel. So I prefer having fellowship with other like minded believers in their homes or other small gatherings. I do not get into the whole large popular church crowd that puts on theatrics or a show.


....
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Christians have a fundamental different relationship to the law than unbelievers do. We are not "under" it, but we once were. It would seem, by many posts here, that some would undo the work of Christ and place us back under the law.
 
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Works in general.

Because there is not the law in the New Covenant and sacrifices.

You believe there is no Law or Commands given to believers in the New Covenant?
Or are you saying there is no penalty to disobeying God's Commands in the New Testament?


....
 
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Christians have a fundamental different relationship to the law than unbelievers do. We are not "under" it, but we once were. It would seem, by many posts here, that some would undo the work of Christ and place us back under the law.

John says, "Sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

Paul says,

15 "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Paul also says,

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says, "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble" (James 4:6).

....
 
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Also, if folks are claiming they are not under NO law whatseover here, then that means you are not under the following Commandment or Law that is written here in the New Testament, too.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment" (1 John 3:23).


....
 
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jimmyjimmy

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John says, "Sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

Paul says,

15 "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Paul also says,

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says, "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble" (James 4:6).

....

What is your point?
 
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Also, the following Laws are not a part of the Old Covenant but they are a part of the New Covenant.

1. Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2).
2. Law of Liberty (James 1:25) (James 2:12).
3. Royal Law (James 2:8).
4. Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).​

This means that we cannot be under no law whatsoever.
There are still laws that are still binding to the believer today.
In fact, if believers disobey these laws, there are dire consequences in the after life for their soul.


....
 
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What is your point?

Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).
So when Paul says shall we continue in sin (i.e. Breaking of God's Laws) because we are not under the Law has got to raise a red flag for you.
Meaning, Paul is not contradicting himself here.
He cannot say that we can break God's Laws and also say that we not under no Law whatsoever.
So the only logical conclusion is Paul is talking about the Law of Moses. This makes sense because Paul was addressing the heresy of circumcision in both the book of Romans and Galatians (Do a key word search in the New Testament for the words "circumcised" and "circumcision."). For "circumcision" is a part of the Old Testament Law and not the New Testament Laws or Commands.

Also, Paul answers his question on if we can continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) with:....

"God forbid."​

Meaning, you cannot continue in sin.
He then says yield yourselves to whom servants you obey.
Whether it be sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.
In other words, Paul is mentioning two contrasting kingdoms here.

1. Sin is of the devil's kingdom (1 John 3:8) and it leads to death.
2. Obedience to righteousness is of God's Kingdom and it leads to life.​

Paul then also says to his brethren that they have become servants of righteousness.
Meaning, they are actually doing that which is righteous.

For John says, he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).

Paul also says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing.

James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
So if a beleiver is disobeying the words of Jesus Christ and says you do not have to obey His words to be saved, they are proud and they know nothing. Again, James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble; And logic dictates that a person cannot be saved without grace.


....
 
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Steeno7

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Also, the following Laws are not a part of the Old Covenant but they are a part of the New Covenant.

1. Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2).
2. Law of Liberty (James 1:25) (James 2:12).
3. Royal Law (James 2:8).
4. Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).​

This means that we cannot be under no law whatsoever.
There are still laws that are still binding to the believer today.

Do you know what an oxymoron is?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).
So when Paul says shall we continue in sin (i.e. Breaking of God's Laws) because we are not under the Law has got to raise a red flag for you.
Meaning, Paul is not contradicting himself here.
He cannot say that we can break God's Laws and also say that we not under no Law whatsoever.
So the only logical conclusion is Paul is talking about the Law of Moses. This makes sense because Paul was addressing the heresy of circumcision in both the book of Romans and Galatians (Do a key word search in the New Testament for the words "circumcised" and "circumcision."). For "circumcision" is a part of the Old Testament Law and not the New Testament Laws or Commands.

Also, Paul answers his question on if we can continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) with:....

"God forbid."​

Meaning, you cannot continue in sin.
He then says yield yourselves to whom servants you obey.
Whether it be sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.
In other words, Paul is mentioning two contrasting kingdoms here.

1. Sin is of the devil's kingdom (1 John 3:8) and it leads to death.
2. Obedience to righteousness is of God's Kingdom and it leads to life.​

Paul then also says to his brethren that they have become servants of righteousness.
Meaning, they are actually doing that which is righteous.

For John says, he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).

Paul also says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing.

James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
So if a beleiver is disobeying the words of Jesus Christ and says you do not have to obey His words to be saved, they are proud and they know nothing. Again, James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble; And logic dictates that a person cannot be saved without grace.


....

I've never, ever, ever said that I through out the moral law. I said that I am in a different relationship to it.
 
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Steeno7

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Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).
So when Paul says shall we continue in sin (i.e. Breaking of God's Laws) because we are not under the Law has got to raise a red flag for you.
Meaning, Paul is not contradicting himself here.
He cannot say that we can break God's Laws and also say that we not under no Law whatsoever.
So the only logical conclusion is Paul is talking about the Law of Moses. This makes sense because Paul was addressing the heresy of circumcision in both the book of Romans and Galatians (Do a key word search in the New Testament for the words "circumcised" and "circumcision."). For "circumcision" is a part of the Old Testament Law and not the New Testament Laws or Commands.

Also, Paul answers his question on if we can continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) with:....

"God forbid."​

Meaning, you cannot continue in sin.
He then says yield yourselves to whom servants you obey.
Whether it be sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.
In other words, Paul is mentioning two contrasting kingdoms here.

1. Sin is of the devil's kingdom (1 John 3:8) and it leads to death.
2. Obedience to righteousness is of God's Kingdom and it leads to life.​

Paul then also says to his brethren that they have become servants of righteousness.
Meaning, they are actually doing that which is righteous.

For John says, he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).

Paul also says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing.

James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
So if a beleiver is disobeying the words of Jesus Christ and says you do not have to obey His words to be saved, they are proud and they know nothing. Again, James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble; And logic dictates that a person cannot be saved without grace.

I thank God everyday for the obedience of Jesus Christ by which I am made righteous. Romans 5:19
 
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ToBeLoved

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You mean, I am missing popular American Christianity. But Jesus said narrow is the way and few be there that finds it.
Also, my words, "Believers have to do what is right in order to be in God's good graces." is shocking to you because you do not understand the many dire warnings in Scripture given to us if we fail to be faithful to the Lord (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 7:21) (Matthew 7:26-27) (1 John 3:15) (Titus 1:16) (Revelation 21:8). But please know that it is not ME but is God working in me to do of His good will and pleasure (which is a result of my surrendering to Him).



I am non-denominational (As it says in my profile). The thing is that a building where people gather under a certain name is not a church. God's people are the church. While it is not wrong per say to gather in a building like most people today (Where both believers and unbelievers would meet). Only believers (not unbelievers) in the New Covenant gathered in fellowship in homes over the Lord's supper (Which was a meal and not snack). In the New Covenant, witnessing was done usually by groups of two and they would go to houses of all nations to spread the gospel. So I prefer having fellowship with other like minded believers in their homes or other small gatherings. I do not get into the whole large popular church crowd that puts on theatrics or a show.


....
Saying popular Christianity is a cop-out. We all are from different denominations here, yet almost everyone is telling you that you are in error.

Telling yourself that the road is narrow is a cop-out too, because we are all taking the narrow road.

So you are no different than any of us. We do not follow some 'popular' or 'wide road'.
 
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