If you are still sinning you do not belong to Jesus Christ

redleghunter

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Obviously it is not a lie if Jesus Christ said "be perfect". Or another verse it be said, " if by one offering he has perfected", and then in another passage, "he who is born of God cannot sin". When people like you regurgitate such nonsense theology, you quickly discard these plain verses indicating that a true man of God cannot sin, as he has been perfected by holy spirit.

Your polemic is still a false dichotomy as there are more valid explanations. Your assertions do not stand the test of Biblical exegesis. That has been pointed out by several posters.

Besides Jesus Christ who has attained your goal of a sinless state in their earthly corporeal state?
 
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royal priest

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Because those letters were given to entire assemblies, who had new believers who had nor yet received the holy spirit and ones that did. So as I said, these exhortations do not imply that they were all disobedient.
But, as I pointed out before,
In Romans 15:14, Paul does not distinguish between those having the Spirit and those in the flesh. He addresses both alike. Each is full of goodness, and needs the occasional admonishment.
He does not say, "able to admonish those who are yet without the Spirit."
 
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redleghunter

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Then, why does Paul exhort perfectly righteous people who don't need exhortations to live righteous, to live righteously?

Indeed why did Paul tell his audience to examine themselves before taking the Lord's Supper?
 
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cgaviria

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Your polemic is still a false dichotomy as there are more valid explanations. Your assertions do not stand the test of Biblical exegesis. That has been pointed out by several posters.

Besides Jesus Christ who has attained your goal of a sinless state in their earthly corporeal state?

Am I to be impressed by your vocabulary? I would rather you quote scriptures that are wiser than your foolish babbles. I have provided my scriptures, you have provided none.
 
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cgaviria

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But, as I pointed out before,
In Romans 15:14, Paul does not distinguish between those having the Spirit and those in the flesh. He addresses both alike. Each is full of goodness, and needs the occasional admonishment.
He does not say, "able to admonish those who are yet without the Spirit."

Yet in another passage we read that he who is born of God cannot sin, so you have to reconcile that verse with this.
 
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redleghunter

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Faith without works is dead.

Goal post shifting. Unless you see human works is how you attain a sinless state.

That would be the polar opposite of antinomianism and is called Pelagianism.

Both are heresies.
 
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cgaviria

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Goal post shifting. Unless you see human works is how you attain a sinless state.

That would be the polar opposite of antinomianism and is called Pelagianism.

Both are heresies.

Faith without works is dead. You either believe this, or you do not.
 
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royal priest

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Yet in another passage we read that he who is born of God cannot sin, so you have to reconcile that verse with this.
The burden of reconciliation rests on the absolute statement. John says, "he who is born of God cannot sin", but he also says, "if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." Not you have an advocate, but we.
The context demonstrates that John's use of absolute terms does not signify moral perfection.
 
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Rick Otto

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So if you wish to attain salvation, you must work towards attaining this free gift.
Is it just me or does anyone else take pause with notion of working for a free gift?
 
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royal priest

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Is it just me or does anyone else take pause with notion of working for a free gift?
Definitely. That notion puts the cart before the horse. The sinner doesn't work for faith, he scoffs at it. But, once he receives faith and his eyes are opened to the reality of the mercy shown to him, then the aim of his life becomes an act of service to the God that so loves the Hell-deserving sinner. 2 Corinthians 5:14-15
 
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Neostarwcc

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So if you wish to attain salvation, you must work towards attaining this free gift.

Exactly!

And we achieve this by confessing our sins, (Matthew 16:18), doing good deeds (Hebrews 13:16) , loving our brothers and sisters (1 John 4:20-21), loving God with all of heart, soul, and mind (Luke 10:27) and following the path of God (Job 23:11).

Look, Salvation is simple. If you continue to live your life the way you were before and only lived for yourself and were an extremely mean, hateful, and disrespectful person and break God's commandments without any consideration to them. Yet, preached to others "I love God" than yeah, Jesus will declare to you "I did not know you."

However if you follow God's commandments, follow God's path for you, confess your sins, and believe in and honor the sacrifice that our Lord has made for ALL of us. Than you will be saved (John 3:15 & 2 Corinthians 5:14-15).

It's possible to follow all of God's commandments. But, It's not possible to sin no more. And THAT is why God sent Jesus to the earth to die for our sins and made Salvation possible. I agree with you Christ's gift of salvation is not easy and many Christians take his sacrifice for granted. But, the holy spirit doesn't cleanse us of ALL sin and to claim so is just ludicrous. If humanity was capable of not sinning anymore, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die in the first place.
 
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cgaviria

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Exactly!

And we achieve this by confessing our sins, (Matthew 16:18), doing good deeds (Hebrews 13:16) , loving our brothers and sisters (1 John 4:20-21), loving God with all of heart, soul, and mind (Luke 10:27) and following the path of God (Job 23:11).

Look, Salvation is simple. If you continue to live your life the way you were before and only lived for yourself and were an extremely mean, hateful, and disrespectful person and break God's commandments without any consideration to them. Yet, preached to others "I love God" than yeah, Jesus will declare to you "I did not know you."

However if you follow God's commandments, follow God's path for you, confess your sins, and believe in and honor the sacrifice that our Lord has made for ALL of us. Than you will be saved (John 3:15 & 2 Corinthians 5:14-15).

It's possible to follow all of God's commandments. But, It's not possible to sin no more. And THAT is why God sent Jesus to the earth to die for our sins and made Salvation possible. I agree with you Christ's gift of salvation is not easy and many Christians take his sacrifice for granted. But, the holy spirit doesn't cleanse us of ALL sin and to claim so is just ludicrous. If humanity was capable of not sinning anymore, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die in the first place.

The whole purpose of why Jesus Christ came was to cause his people to not sin anymore, not just to atone for sin, this is what you don't understand. So yes, the holy spirit does clean of ALL sin, its in the scriptures, see for yourself,
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24 [KJV])

Jesus Christ didn't just come to atone for iniquities once and for all, he also came to bring an end to sin. And how is one freed from sin to actually be able to never sin again? By receiving the holy spirit, hence,

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 36:26 [KJV])

The heart is where desires are, so if God is removing your stony heart, he is in fact removing your evil desires, meaning if you had a desire to steal, you will not longer want to steal, if you had a desire to commit sexual immorality, you will no longer have that desire. And then he says he will give you a new heart of flesh, meaning a heart that has godly desires. And how does he do this? By putting his holy spirit in you. And then this prophecy says, you will indeed obey God. God removes all evil desires from within you, that is how you are not able to sin anymore, and thus fulfill this scripture,
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])

If you are still sinning, you have not been baptized in the holy spirit, because the whole point of being baptized into the holy spirit is be become freed from the corrupt fleshly nature that causes sin.
 
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Wgw

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There are of course two looming problems with the arguments you present @cgaviria.

Firstly, because you reject or alter canonical Scripture, your appeal to it is dubious; we know of at least two places where you alter it in a manner nit supported by scholarship, and you are also known to have based doctrines on works or rather a part of a work universally regarded as erroneous apocrypha. So when you appeal to scripture, we have no way of knowing whether or not you are appealing to the same scripture we use.

Secondly, and more pressingly, by de-personalizing the Holy Spirit, you appeal to the reception of something ontologocally different from the Holy Spirit described in the Gospels. The Holy Spirit is a person, a prosopon. In reducing Him from a Him to an impersonal force or the indwelling of mere angels, younradically alter the meaning of the concept.

The whole purpose of why Jesus Christ came was to cause his people to not sin anymore, not just to atone for sin, this is what you don't understand. So yes, the holy spirit does clean of ALL sin, its in the scriptures, see for yourself,

Jesus Christ didn't just come to atone for iniquities once and for all, he also came to bring an end to sin.

No, our Lord came to restore our tarnished human natjre and to glorify it, allowing human beings to become sons of God by adoption. Being assosted into ceasing to sin is a part of this, it however is not the raison d'etre.

The heart is where desires are, so if God is removing your stony heart, he is in fact removing your evil desires, meaning if you had a desire to steal, you will not longer want to steal, if you had a desire to commit sexual immorality, you will no longer have that desire. And then he says he will give you a new heart of flesh, meaning a heart that has godly desires. And how does he do this? By putting his holy spirit in you. And then this prophecy says, you will indeed obey God. God removes all evil desires from within you, that is how you are not able to sin anymore, and thus fulfill this scripture,

Sin is subtle. Your problem here is that you limit the inclination lf sin to the most obvious outward temptations, ignoring entirely the temptation to vainglory and self-righteousness, which is more dangerous and tends to plague those who have attained some degree of partial ascesis.

If you are still sinning, you have not been baptized in the holy spirit, because the whole point of being baptized into the holy spirit is be become freed from the corrupt fleshly nature that causes sin.

If someone boasts of being sinless, we can assert they still are sinful. Whereas someone truly sinless would hesitate to mention the fact.

Indeed, Orthodox hagiography has many examples of the Salios, or Holy Fool. These were exceptional ascetics who "played the part" of madmen to avoid praise for their holiness, to disdain all honour.
 
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redleghunter

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Am I to be impressed by your vocabulary? I would rather you quote scriptures that are wiser than your foolish babbles. I have provided my scriptures, you have provided none.

I have quoted Scriptures and provided exegesis for such several times so have a multitude of others. Perhaps that should be an indicator.

What was unfamiliar in my word use?
 
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