Vaccines

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Ada Lovelace

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I did not think about all the people flowing into the USA from the Third World
kind of makes worrying about a few hundred unvaccinated kids from the suburbs seem silly when millions of unvaccinated Illegal Immigrants have come over here

Unvaccinated Travelers Returning From Abroad Bring Home Measles, Says CDC

Actually, unvaccinated kids from the suburbs have caused more outbreaks of diseases vaccines provide protection for than illegal immigrants. One of the first resurgences of measles in the United States when widespread compliance with vaccination had virtually eradicated it from our shores was caused in the late 1990s by a deliberately unvaccinated 17-year-old who went to Europe and was unknowingly incubating the disease when she returned. Her unvaccinated siblings contracted it and then spread it throughout their community. Several other Americans have unwittingly brought back diseases as undesired souvenirs, and tourists legally visiting our country have also brought them in and sparked outbreaks. It's why I believe it's a fundamental responsibility to be properly vaccinated before traveling unless there is a valid medical reason precluding it.

Immigrants tend to be very willing and grateful to have their children vaccinated. Those who come to America through the legal immigration process have no choice about it since it's compulsory:

http://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugee...tion/revised-vaccination-immigration-faq.html

My stepmom is a pediatrician in Los Angeles who volunteers at a family clinic that provides free or reduced cost medical care, and has given many vaccinations to immigrants (both those who are here legally and illegally) and their children. They are more appreciative and compliant than many of the affluent parents of her patients at her Monday to Friday practice who have the luxury of spending copious amounts of time on the internet "researching" about vaccines. The majority of those parents do also consent to providing their children with immunization, but it sometimes requires more patience. I've accompanied her and other family members on medical missions abroad where parents have stood in stretched out lines that took hours to make it to the front of so their children could receive vaccines. My job was to play the ukulele and try to keep kids entertained while waiting for their turn. One of the primary reasons many parents in impoverished countries leap at the opportunity for their children to be vaccinated is because they've witnessed the devastation of the diseases these vaccines provide protection for, whereas the efficacy of those vaccinations in America has led to less first-hand experience in modern-day. It's why the vaccination rates in South Sudan are actually higher than in some American suburbs.
 
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Tallguy88

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I'm curious. The vaccines that were derived from fetal cells... were these cells from an aborted fetus or a miscarriage? And if there was study on miscarried fetuses wouldn't this fall under something the church encourages like organ donation?
They were derived from aborted children. Two of them, I believe.
 
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Tallguy88

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It is?



God is going to punish people who have saved tens of millions of lives because they used dead fetal material donated to them.

Do you have a bible you can pound while typing this?



They didn't manipulate a corpse. They developed a cell line from bits of material.
Yes, it was a sin to abort those children and it was a sin to use their dead cells to make vaccines. It's is morally allowable to use those vaccines until a substitute can be created that did not require the use of dead children to create.

The ends do not justify the means. But since the vaccines already exist and don't require new abortions to make, then we can use them.
 
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Tallguy88

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From the USCCB:


Should a government agency or private company use tissue from induced abortions for vaccine development or other research? The Catholic bishops have answered in the negative. Such use tends to legitimize abortion as a source of "life-affirming" treatments, and requires collaboration with the abortion industry, which should be avoided. This judgment is reflected in policies governing Catholic health care. See Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services (4th edition, 2001): "Catholic health care institutions need to be concerned about the danger of scandal in any association with abortion providers" (Directive 45), and "Catholic health care institutions should not make use of human tissue obtained by direct abortions even for research and therapeutic purposes" (Directive 66).

If such collaboration with abortion has already taken place, and the only vaccine made available for serious diseases contains material that was cultured in fetal tissue from an abortion, may Catholics -- out of concern for their own health or that of their children or the community – submit to this vaccine without committing serious sin? Most Catholic moralists have replied in the affirmative. The recipient of the vaccine took no part in decisions to base the vaccine on this morally unacceptable source, but is coping with the results of immoral decisions made by others.​

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...-research-and-vaccines-using-fetal-tissue.cfm
 
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Tallguy88

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I don't know why people are attacking the OP. She said her children HAVE had adverse reactions to vaccines. If she is worried they will have adverse reactions to more vaccines, she should consult with her pediatrician and see what he says.

This "attack first" mentality when encountering people worried about vaccines needs to stop. Not everyone is a tinfoil hatter just because they have concerns.
 
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Tallguy88

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Here's more from the USCCB (it's a PDF):


The only vaccines readily available in the United States for some contagious diseases (e.g., rubella and Hepatitis A) have been manufactured using fetal tissue from induced abortions. This creates a problem of conscience for some Catholic parents.

The Moral Reflections released by the Pontifical Academy for Life in 2005 have been welcomed by the Catholic Bishops of the United States. Our Secretariat of Pro-Life Activities agrees with the National Catholics Bioethics Center, the Catholic Medical Association, and others that manufacturers should be urged to make alternative vaccines more widely available so that Catholics and others will not face this moral dilemma.

In cases where no alternative is currently available, the Academy said that Catholics may licitly accept vaccination for themselves and their children using a vaccine based on tissue from abortion or may refuse the vaccine “if it can be done without causing children, and indirectly the population as a whole, to undergo significant risks to their health.” The Academy specifically cited the potential threat to pregnant women and their unborn children from a failure to vaccinate for rubella (German measles).

Risk to the public health is a factual question. Risk may vary from place to place and from one time to another in the same location; even with the same set of facts, different medical experts may come to different conclusions about the severity of the risk (or about how to weigh that against the conscientious objection of a parent). Therefore, it is not surprising that different Catholic school districts, for example, have developed different policies regarding a “conscience exemption” in such cases.​

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...s-Conscience-Exemption-updated-April-2015.pdf
 
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Cos-play

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So you can licitly refuse some vaccinations if the risks out weight the reward, or if you have a contientous objection and do not put others at a significant risk.

This is America you can do anything you want except smoke in public buildings and sue a corporation for damages they inflict.

But if you choose to not get your kids vaxxed you are probably not going to get them into a day care, or any children group activity you may not get them into a public school and their likely not going to be able to attend college.

American individualism at it's best and brightest, I say
 
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bill5

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This is America you can do anything you want except smoke in public buildings and sue a corporation for damages they inflict.

But if you choose to not get your kids vaxxed you are probably not going to get them into a day care, or any children group activity you may not get them into a public school and their likely not going to be able to attend college.

American individualism at it's best and brightest, I say
Cmon, that's pretty ridiculous. esp the suing part - America is nothing if not sue-happy, and our legal system has been all to glad to accommodate them.

I'm not sure what people don't get about the dangers of not getting their kids vaccinated, or the unfounded if not outright paranoid fears of doing so, and why this movement has suddenly sprung up after generations of successful vaccine use. Vaccines have and do prevent a wide variety of diseases, many of them fatal. To deny that protection is not only to put one's kids at risk but all others they come into contact with. That is not a "right" anyone has, or should have.
 
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Tallguy88

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Cmon, that's pretty ridiculous. esp the suing part - America is nothing if not sue-happy, and our legal system has been all to glad to accommodate them.

I'm not sure what people don't get about the dangers of not getting their kids vaccinated, or the unfounded if not outright paranoid fears of doing so, and why this movement has suddenly sprung up after generations of successful vaccine use. Vaccines have and do prevent a wide variety of diseases, many of them fatal. To deny that protection is not only to put one's kids at risk but all others they come into contact with. That is not a "right" anyone has, or should have.
Unless they have a legitimate medical reason to refuse. Some people do have that legitimate reason. They are often touted as the reason people need to be vaccinated. So the OP should consult her pediatrician if she believes her kids to be among the population that will have a significant adverse reaction to vaccines. To tell her she's a bad parent for having those concerns (not saying you did, but some posters implied it in this thread) is presumptuous and dangerous. She is clearly not an anti-vaxxer.
 
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bill5

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Unless they have a legitimate medical reason to refuse. Some people do have that legitimate reason. They are often touted as the reason people need to be vaccinated. So the OP should consult her pediatrician if she believes her kids to be among the population that will have a significant adverse reaction to vaccines. To tell her she's a bad parent for having those concerns (not saying you did, but some posters implied it in this thread) is presumptuous and dangerous. She is clearly not an anti-vaxxer.
Certainly, there are always exceptions; that should be a given. And I certainly am not talking about the OP or anyone specifically. Was speaking generally.

It's like the whole gluten-free thing. For almost everyone on the planet, gluten not only isn't harmful but is beneficial, and to avoid it is actually an UNhealthy thing, if anything. But there are people with an allergy or sensitivity to it that absolutely need to do so. So if I would say "this anti-gluten fad is silly," it's in that context. It's hardly silly if one has a legitimate medical reason to avoid it.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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I never said I was interested. But it sure is swell you called me dishonest. I certainly wasn't interested in conspiracy theories. I am not interested in other view points on this issue because there are no legitimate other viewpoints. There is this thing call science. It is really nice in that it shuts up uneducated nutjobs from being taken seriously by educated professionals.
Ha, yeah, science. The same thing that says God isn't real and evolution is. Let's call them infallible.
 
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Tallguy88

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Lol. You know the the Vatican believes in God, evolution & vaccines, right?
Evolution is free to be believed or not. It's the theory that best fits the evidence, but a newer theory could always come along that is even better. Basically, Catholics can believe in evolution, but must believe Adam and Eve were two real people and that their souls were not the product of evolution. And of couse, a literal reading of Genesis is also acceptable.
 
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Butterfly99

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Evolution is free to be believed or not. It's the theory that best fits the evidence, but a newer theory could always come along that is even better. Basically, Catholics can believe in evolution, but must believe Adam and Eve were two real people and that their souls were not the product of evolution. And of couse, a literal reading of Genesis is also acceptable.

Um, OK. Well not to derail the thread on this, but I know the Pope made statements in support of evolution. I think the Vatican has supported vaccines too. The Vatican is pretty pro-science, while obviously also believing in God. I just thought the comment was kinda funny.
 
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Butterfly99

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Again, I'm not saying I know everything which is why I asked in the first place. Second, no they did not die. Obviously. But, I do know of people who have had children die as a reaction to certain vaccines. I see where you are coming from but I don't think people should have their children taken away. That's beyond ridiculous. Abuse, yes. Horrid living conditions, yes. But, a perfectly happy home where a parent literally goes to the doctor for any ailment but chooses not to vaccinate has their children taken away? That's insanely militaristic and horrible. Taking a parents right away is not okay.

Just a FYI on the attached file you can see your email address in the top corner. Idk if maybe you attached the screenshot by mistake. It's just a pic of your post. I think you can remove attachments.

Ok well I'm confused cause if your kids have already been vaccinated & are current then they can go to school right? What's the dilemma? What reactions did they have? Does their dr. know? Cause some reactions are normal. They suck & all but they're not gonna cause major problems. Not everybody has them & I think most don't.

Well I do think not giving vaccines when their dr. has said to give them is neglect tbh. Not the same as like not feeding your kids but still neglect. There's a girl here who's had serious health problems her whole life cause of complications from chickenpox that she had when she was a baby. She was too young to get the vaccine but she got chickenpox from an older kid who wasn't vaccinated. She's gone thru a ton of pain & grief all cause of someone else's parents neglect. That's not right.
 
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Tallguy88

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Um, OK. Well not to derail the thread on this, but I know the Pope made statements in support of evolution. I think the Vatican has supported vaccines too. The Vatican is pretty pro-science, while obviously also believing in God. I just thought the comment was kinda funny.
The Church is not opposed to vaccines usually. As far as evolution, wiki gives a good overview with references. In particular, see the encyclical Humani Generis for specific off-limits teachings such as polygenism and the evolution of the soul.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution
 
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