Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

Wgw said:

It is impossible to read the Book of Job and not believe the devil is a specific person, frankly. Also this view ignores various Judaic scriptures the Masoretes later rejected, like 1 Enoch, which clearly identify a malign diabolical figure.

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Only the first two chapters of Job contain (what I believe to a be an incorrect translation) the word Satan. Some scholars of the Bible believe that these two chapters were added much later.

Isaiah 45:5 "I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."

I do not believe in an evil being that God cannot control. If you have a good argument for this one evil being called Satan and the Devil, I'd like to hear it.

When God created man, he gave man dominion over the earth. He did not say anything about an omnipresent, Arch being like God, who constrains His capacity to do good, having dominion as well. I have heard many stories about the evil that men do.

MerriestHouse said:

Only the first two chapters of Job contain (what I believe to a be an incorrect translation)

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And what evidence can you present to support your claim of an incorrect translation? And I do mean evidence.....not opinion....

nomadictheist said:

Jesus appears to believe the devil is a real being:

John also believes the devil is a real being:

I would respectfully suggest that it is unwise to believe that just because a name has a specific meaning means that it does not represent a real being. The scriptures I have presented here from the New Testament are not an exhaustive testimony of the devil, but they represent enough to see that he is spoken of as a real entity who is also the embodiment of all that is evil.

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Enemies of God's people are real. They have been real from the beginning. They are real men who walk and have walked the earth. What has this being done that is worse than what men have done?

civilwarbuff said:

And what evidence can you present to support your claim of an incorrect translation? And I do mean evidence.....not opinion....

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I have a lot.

MerriestHouse said:

Only the first two chapters of Job contain (what I believe to a be an incorrect translation) the word Satan. Some scholars of the Bible believe that these two chapters were added much later.

Isaiah 45:5 "I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."

I do not believe in an evil being that God cannot control. If you have a good argument for this one evil being called Satan and the Devil, I'd like to hear it.

When God created man, he gave man dominion over the earth. He did not say anything about an omnipresent, Arch being like God, who constrains His capacity to do good, having dominion as well. I have heard many stories about the evil that men do.

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I agree there is no evil being that God cannot control. However, man relinquished his dominion over the earth to the evil one when he chose to obey him over God.

Jesus didn't argue with the devil when he claimed to have dominion over the earth:
"To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours."
The devil makes Jesus an offer: worship me, and I will give you the earth. Jesus didn't tell the devil that it wasn't his to give. Rather, He said "It is written, you will worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."

God has permitted the devil to rule the present world because man willingly gave dominion over to him. However, the devil and his children will have no place in the new heaven and the new earth.

MerriestHouse said:

I have a lot.

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But you don't present it....is it a "secret"....I won't tell...promise.....

civilwarbuff said:

But you don't present it....is it a "secret"....I won't tell...promise.....

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It's your turn.

civilwarbuff said:

Ah, so you do have the HS even though you have claimed you dont. Because you can't abstain from sin unless you have the HS but you say you don't have the HS so how can you abstain from sin?

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Still waiting for your answer.......

cgaviria said:

I have not changed my view. You must stop sinning 100%. And then, when you receive holy spirit you will be perfected to never sin again, as that is the sanctifying work of the holy spirit.

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You put the cart before the horse. Did you mean to put it that way?

MerriestHouse said:

It's your turn.

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civilwarbuff said:

And what evidence can you present to support your claim of an incorrect translation? And I do mean evidence.....not opinion....

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There is my turn...you just going to run and hide again and hope no one finds you?

MerriestHouse said:

Only the first two chapters of Job contain (what I believe to a be an incorrect translation) the word Satan. Some scholars of the Bible believe that these two chapters were added much later.

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In other words, "the Bible doesn't say what I want it to, therefore it is [mistranslated/inauthentic]."

MerriestHouse said:

Enemies of God's people are real. They have been real from the beginning. They are real men who walk and have walked the earth. What has this being done that is worse than what men have done?

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Yes, evil people have walked the earth since the fall, but Jesus called the devil the father of the Pharisees, said that he was a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies. John identifies the ancient serpent, the dragon, as the devil and Satan. He also says that the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

Satan is also said to be master over demons and evil spirits. He gives power to the beast in Revelation. In fact, the scriptures say that Satan gives the beast "his power and his throne and great authority." By this power and authority the beast was able to recover from an apparently mortal wound (a mockery of Jesus' being raised from the dead). A second beast was also able to use this power and authority to perform signs and wonders to deceive the nations, including giving "breath to the image of the beast."

Satan, the devil, is real. He is the father of lies, and the first and original sinner. He and all who follow him will be destroyed, but not until the time has come where his servant makes war on and conquers the saints (Revelation 13).

cgaviria said:

Did Paul not do the same?

My anger is directed toward people like you, not unbelievers, because they don't know any better, but people like you who call themselves a brother and teach these false doctrines. We are instructed to rebuke and admonish people like you, and that is what I am doing, in hopes that you will truly realize your own folly and truly repent, and come under the obedience of God and the truth of Jesus Christ, and not all these lies you believe.

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The difference is that unlike you, St. Paul is a Holy Apostle.

cgaviria said:

I never said that, I said no one is sinless, except Jesus Christ, as all else have sinned. Yet when one is born of God, one is perfected to never sin again.

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Well if one is sinless, one is perfect. But I accept that I misquoted you.

Again, if a Christian is made perfect when they become a Christian, there should be homes/churches/communities filled with perfect people - so where are they?

cgaviria said:

He'll forgive us so that we can then live obedient lives, not continue living sinful lives. When he forgave the adulterous woman, he didn't say, "I know you are weak, keep asking God for forgiveness each time you commit adultery", he said, "sin no more."

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Yes he did.
But if she HAD sinned again, repented and asked for mercy and help; he would have forgiven her.

cgaviria said:

My anger is directed toward people like you, not unbelievers, because they don't know any better, but people like you who call themselves a brother and teach these false doctrines.

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What you either can't understand or you absolutely refuse to believe, is that it's the doctrines that you state which are false.

I have told you that it is a fact that churches, clergy and theologians accept the Trinity, have done for 100s of years, and asked you for the name of a commentator or theologian who says otherwise and agrees with you. You have not been able to do this. I, and many others, have explained that your view that Jesus is a lesser god and the Holy Spirit is an angel, is incorrect.
Now personally, if I explained a doctrine on a Christian forum and the vast majority of people disagreed with me and told me that the church throughout history, theologians, commentators and even the moderators of the very forum on which I was posting disagreed with me, and that my understanding of certain verses of Scripture was wrong; I hope that I would have the humility to say to myself, "oh, maybe I have got this wrong. I need to read, and study, Scripture again,."
But you can't, or won't, do that. For some reason, you won't even consider that you could possibly be wrong; when you are challenged, instead of being willing to debate, discuss, learn and maybe change your views and grow in the faith, you insult, mock, laugh at, say "you people", and take it upon yourself to rebuke us - it seems that if we hold a different view to you then obviously it is we who have the false doctrine.

Now you can't read my thoughts as I type this, but I can assure you I am not saying this in anger, or a desire to attack.

cgaviria said:

We are instructed to rebuke and admonish people like you, and that is what I am doing, in hopes that you will truly realize your own folly and truly repent, and come under the obedience of God and the truth of Jesus Christ, and not all these lies you believe.

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So John's words that if we confess our sins God is faithful and just and will forgive and cleanse us, 1 John 1:9, believing that if we sin Jesus will speak to the Father in our defence, 1 John 2:1, believing that God is loving, forgiving and merciful, as illustrated by Jesus in his parables about loving fathers and merciful managers - is all lies?

Sad.

civilwarbuff said:

And what evidence can you present to support your claim of an incorrect translation? And I do mean evidence.....not opinion....

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I gave the reasons in detail why I believe they were translated incorrectly. What proof do you have that they were translated correctly?

Wgw said:

In other words, "the Bible doesn't say what I want it to, therefore it is [mistranslated/inauthentic]."

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No. I believed the mainstream 'doctrine of devils' before I did an in-depth study. I want to know the truth, that's why I study. Do you just believe whatever you have been taught without checking to see if it is correct? I want to know what God through the Holy Spirit really said. I don't think you are afraid of the truth.

nomadictheist said:

Yes, evil people have walked the earth since the fall, but Jesus called the devil the father of the Pharisees, said that he was a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies. John identifies the ancient serpent, the dragon, as the devil and Satan. He also says that the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

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Genesis 3:6 "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate."

What if Eve was drawn to fruit because of her own lusts? She was lusting after the fruit before the so-called devil appeared on the scene. What if she got Adam lusting for it by telling him how good it was? What if the evil in her was warring with the good and the evil won? That happens with us sometimes.

1 John 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world passes away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever."

What is the difference in what Eve was feeling hanging around the tree and what the early disciples experienced and what we experience today when we hang around things that are forbidden? We have the same human nature that Adam and Eve had.

If we take the story of the garden literally, the serpent was the cause of their disobedience. If we take it figuratively to represent the evil, rebellious nature of man or our own voice of temptation. When we take it figuratively, the separate 'deceiver' is removed.

It is our choice to make.

nomadictheist said:

Satan is also said to be master over demons and evil spirits. He gives power to the beast in Revelation. In fact, the scriptures say that Satan gives the beast "his power and his throne and great authority." By this power and authority the beast was able to recover from an apparently mortal wound (a mockery of Jesus' being raised from the dead). A second beast was also able to use this power and authority to perform signs and wonders to deceive the nations, including giving "breath to the image of the beast."

Satan, the devil, is real. He is the father of lies, and the first and original sinner. He and all who follow him will be destroyed, but not until the time has come where his servant makes war on and conquers the saints (Revelation 13).

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The Revelation is essentially symbolic but there are physical referents that are contained in the symbols. It was written that way for a reason. God's people were protected from their evil adversaries. The early disciples understood the veiled warnings and heeded them, their enemies did not understand.

Does anyone take this literally? "I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication; 5 and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth's abominations." 6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly." Revelation 17

nomadictheist said:

I agree there is no evil being that God cannot control. However, man relinquished his dominion over the earth to the evil one when he chose to obey him over God.

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Where is that in Scripture?

nomadictheist said:

Jesus didn't argue with the devil when he claimed to have dominion over the earth:
"To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours."
The devil makes Jesus an offer: worship me, and I will give you the earth. Jesus didn't tell the devil that it wasn't his to give. Rather, He said "It is written, you will worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."

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1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry. 3 And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread." 4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'" 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'" 7 Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'" 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; 9 and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'" 11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him." Matthew 4

All of these things that Jesus was tempted with fall under the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life. These are the same things that tempt us. Jesus was fasting. He was hungry and was tempted to turn the stones into bread. He was tempted with greed and power. He could have owned the physical world.

Adam was tempted and he sinned. Jesus was tempted in all points the way we are, but did not sin.

nomadictheist said:

God has permitted the devil to rule the present world because man willingly gave dominion over to him. However, the devil and his children will have no place in the new heaven and the new earth.

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I believe God created us with both good and evil. We can allow our good to overcome our evil, or we can allow the evil to overcome the good in us. It is our battle to fight. It's up to us whether we win or lose. In our world today, evil is the winner.