The secrets of "Faith", and the narrow path.

faither said:

Ya steeno7, The problem is there is always a little truth in everything people say. And if a learner doesn't know that Gods truths are paradoxical, he has no chance at understanding Gods world. I'll give you an example.
Faithing is not a work, and it is a work at the same time. Our brains cannot comprehend it unless the Holy Spirit allows it.
Here's some more.
1)Christ said, "You live by dying." You don't die in order to live. When you are in a true state of dying (surrendering) , you are living at the same time. The Greek texts are written in a way that both of these things are happening at the same time.
2)Christ said, "The first shall be last, and the last shall be first." Well we can't be first by trying to be last. As the result of surrendering ourselves to Him, we become last making us first in Gods world. The Greek again defines this as both first and last are happening at the same time.
3)Christ said, "If you want to be chief, be a servant." Same scenario being a servant so you can be chief isn't a true path. By Faithing or surrendering ourselves to Him, we become a servant and chief at the same time as the Greek texts tell us.
4)Christ said, " No man has forsaken with persecution what he will receive many times in this life and the life to come." We don't forsake with persecution, to receive anything in this life or the world to come. As the result of Faithing (surrendering our life to Him) we are forsaken , we are persecuted, and we are receiving blessings here and the world to come all at the same time. Simultaneous happenings as specified in the Greek texts, the most exact language on the planet.
5)Christ said, "You go up by going down." It is a paradox!

What is a paradox?
A paradox embraces two things, mutually contradictory , exclusive from one another, yet concomitant. Existing at the same time , Merged together, both true, yet entirely opposite. The deeper truths of God are all paradoxes. But you don' need to know any of that to be a Faither instead of just a believer. People could have surrendered themselves to God long before His Word was available to the masses. Don't you ever wonder how people before the 1500 were able to have a relationship with Him? They were drawn by the Father, they surrendered to Him, lived a life inspired by that surrender, and God did the rest as we continued that surrender, Continued in Faithing, Pisteuo.

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Yeah, you're just way too deep for all the rest of us mere "believers".

Steeno7 said:

Yeah, you're just way too deep for all the rest of us mere "believers".

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But, don't you know, he has "special" revelation....

EmSw said:

Why not answer the questions Marvin? Sure, you can beat on me all you want, if that is your pleasure. It matters not to me. And, you don't really hate being blunt, or you wouldn't do it.

I asked if God predestines lies and false beliefs. If God is Truth, how do lies and false beliefs come from Him?

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I'll answer in a straight forward way for you this time. But I doubt that you will or even can understand my answers.

1. Does God predestine lies and false beliefs? Yes - God predestined that lies and false beliefs take place.

2. If God is Truth, how do lies and false beliefs come from Him? God is truth. Lies and false beliefs do not come from God. Lies and false beliefs come from His creation through their own choices.

Lies and false beliefs are able to happen because God predestined that His creations have free choice, just as He possesses - them being created in His likeness.

The "knowledge" of lies and false beliefs do come from God who is the source of all wisdom and knowledge.

God predestined that lies and false beliefs take place in order to display that inherent knowledge in this age and in the ages to come.

God knew and knows every possible creation that He could and can create. He also knew and knows every possible circumstance that His creations can find themselves in - because He has to be the one to providentially control those circumstances or they would not exist.

He likely decreed that the exact combination of things would exist in the universe in this age that would result in the most glory for Himself.

God knew precisely what His creation would do with their free choices in every possible circumstance. God created and providentially ordered that the precise circumstances be in place that would bring about what He had predestined to happen.

God is displaying His innate knowledge of good and evil in representative form throughout this age. That includes the display of His mercy and grace as well as the display of His justice and wrath.

All of these things (and indeed every facet of God and His creation) is being and will be displayed through His eternal Word in whom all things consist.

I can only imagine what God has in store for the ages to come. I only know from the Word of God that this display of His inherent knowledge of good and evil - with grace and mercy & justice and wrath - will only be displayed again in the ages to come through the Word of God and His bride.

It seems to me that the wisdom of God dictates that this situation we find our selves in must happen first so that it will not have to be repeated over and over again in eternity.

Obviously any conjecture from my standpoint is only a sanctified opinion since I can only begin to understand the mind of God given my present circumstances.

Chew on those things for a while.

If it appears to me that you just want to argue and not expand your mind - I will put you on ignore after this exchange.

I tire of you.

faither said:

That's milk.

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Steeno7 said:

Yeah, you're just way too deep for all the rest of us mere "believers".

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Yup. Gnosticism at its ugliest. These people with "special knowledge" are to be avoided like the plague.

faither said:

I stand on "Salvation is by Grace through Faith". An agnostic doesn't stand on anything.

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I didn't say agnostic. I said Gnostic (those with special knowledge)

faither said:

Sorry, my bad.

Those with special knowledge, like Paul? Abraham? John the revelator?

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Maybe you should look up the word prior to making wise cracks.

faither said:

Ya steeno7, The problem is there is always a little truth in everything people say. And if a learner doesn't know that Gods truths are paradoxical, he has no chance at understanding Gods world. I'll give you an example.
Faithing is not a work, and it is a work at the same time. Our brains cannot comprehend it unless the Holy Spirit allows it.
Here's some more.
1)Christ said, "You live by dying." You don't die in order to live. When you are in a true state of dying (surrendering) , you are living at the same time. The Greek texts are written in a way that both of these things are happening at the same time.
2)Christ said, "The first shall be last, and the last shall be first." Well we can't be first by trying to be last. As the result of surrendering ourselves to Him, we become last making us first in Gods world. The Greek again defines this as both first and last are happening at the same time.
3)Christ said, "If you want to be chief, be a servant." Same scenario being a servant so you can be chief isn't a true path. By Faithing or surrendering ourselves to Him, we become a servant and chief at the same time as the Greek texts tell us.
4)Christ said, " No man has forsaken with persecution what he will receive many times in this life and the life to come." We don't forsake with persecution, to receive anything in this life or the world to come. As the result of Faithing (surrendering our life to Him) we are forsaken , we are persecuted, and we are receiving blessings here and the world to come all at the same time. Simultaneous happenings as specified in the Greek texts, the most exact language on the planet.
5)Christ said, "You go up by going down." It is a paradox!

What is a paradox?
A paradox embraces two things, mutually contradictory , exclusive from one another, yet concomitant. Existing at the same time , Merged together, both true, yet entirely opposite. The deeper truths of God are all paradoxes. But you don' need to know any of that to be a Faither instead of just a believer. People could have surrendered themselves to God long before His Word was available to the masses. Don't you ever wonder how people before the 1500 were able to have a relationship with Him? They were drawn by the Father, they surrendered to Him, lived a life inspired by that surrender, and God did the rest as we continued that surrender, Continued in Faithing, Pisteuo.

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I like what you have written so far. Thank you so much for sharing your study. It lines up a lot of what I have been saying for a long time of what I believe God's Word to say. I believe one must surrender their life to Christ or submit to God (This is usually done with repentance with a Godly sorrow) whereby they then allow Christ (God) to do the good work in them. That is why it is not salvation by works. For it is the Lord who works in them once they submitted (surrendered) to Him. It is a walk with God. For can two walk together unless they be agreed? (Amos 3:3). It's a cooperation with God whereby He moves within our life. For it's why the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus. It was Christ working in them. Yes, they received those crowns because they physically did the work, but yet Christ deserved all the glory for those crowns because it was Christ ultimately working in their lives to do of His will and good pleasure.


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I think the whole "Faith vs Works" issue gets confused because folks do not understand who ultimately does the work in a believer's life.

Okay. So who does the "good work" in a believer's life? Is it God? Or is it the believer? Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22, 23, 24 (cf. Matthew 7:16, 18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26, 27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

"Pisteuo", faithing, true believing, or surrendering one's life to Christ would allow the Lord's work to manifest itself within a believer's life. For Jesus said you can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).


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James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. This is talking about God directed works done in your life and not Man directed works of your effort alone. James is talking about letting the Lord work thru your life as a result of having a genuine faith or in having a real relationship with the Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about coming to the Lord for the first time and not about the continued Sanctification after one receives God. Ephesians 2:10 says we were foreordained to walk in good works. For we are his worksmanship created IN Christ Jesus for good works.

In other words, Paul is talking about how we must first receive God as a gift before we can allow the Lord to work in us.
Otherwise one would be putting the cart before the horse.
Paul is saying we are ultimately saved by His mercy and not in anything we do.
For it is the Lord who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure.

For Titus 3:15 says we are saved by his mercy and by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Ghost. It is a surrendering to God and a transformation given to us by Him.

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faither said:

Think of this Jason. As we are being drawn by the Father, we are in a state of not having the Spirit of Christ in us yet, and as a result, Rom 8:9 tells us that Christ is not ours. Now if Christ is not ours, the Word of God can't be ours either. So our initial act of Faithing or surrendering our lives to God if acceptable to Christ, is accepted outside of His Word. At this point He is simply moving or drawing us forward to the testing ground or the parable of the sower. Here 3 of the 4 offerings or Faithing will fail.

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No. In Acts chapter 2: We learn that 3000 souls were added that day to the body of believers (or the body of Christ). They were saved in a day. No faithing involved yet. Not that I am against "faithing." I believe in it 100%. A believer has to prove their faith to be true by walking with the Lord and HIs good ways. A person can accept the Lord and repent of their sins and be saved now. There is no waiting to be saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 says salvation is a free gift to receive by faith without works.


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faither said:

Think of this Jason. As we are being drawn by the Father, we are in a state of not having the Spirit of Christ in us yet, and as a result, Rom 8:9 tells us that Christ is not ours. Now if Christ is not ours, the Word of God can't be ours either. So our initial act of Faithing or surrendering our lives to God if acceptable to Christ, is accepted outside of His Word. At this point He is simply moving or drawing us forward to the testing ground or the parable of the sower. Here 3 of the 4 offerings or Faithing will fail.

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faither said:

Think of this Jason. As we are being drawn by the Father, we are in a state of not having the Spirit of Christ in us yet, and as a result, Rom 8:9 tells us that Christ is not ours. Now if Christ is not ours, the Word of God can't be ours either. So our initial act of Faithing or surrendering our lives to God if acceptable to Christ, is accepted outside of His Word. At this point He is simply moving or drawing us forward to the testing ground or the parable of the sower. Here 3 of the 4 offerings or Faithing will fail.

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The parable of the sower is a testing ground? How so? Each soil IS what it IS. The soil has no power to change itself.

Your order of salvation seems close Pelegian's. You say that God is drawing however, you give Him no credit for doing anything.

Below is the actual order of salvation.

faither said:

Wow Jason, that's a really good point! acts, 2. Usually some one might bring up the thief on the cross. I've never heard anyone bring up the 3000 for validating your understanding. I really like that.

Have you ever heard the statement, the OT unfolds into the NT, and the NT is enfolded in the OT. Without getting into that discussion this is how I see it. The immediate sealing of the Holy Spirit into those three thousand was a first fruits offering that is a physical first fruits offering in the OT, but a Spiritual First fruits offering in the NT.

This OT truth is sometimes practiced today in the Tithing. Tithes are plural, there are 3 of them. The first fruits, an offering of the entire first fruit of our labor. the second, 10% on the rest of our earnings. And the third is a 10% of any increases. I see this as a Law of the Spiritual Realm that God holds true to.

But lets say this one Scripture is proof of an immediate "believe" and then the Holy Spirit is immediately sealed in us, making us saved at that point.

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I do not believe this was an exception to the rule. If it happened once before in Acts 2, it can happen again.

And you also mentioned that it can never be lost . Where would we put the parable of the sower in that understanding? We are the seed, the Word of God is the soil, 3 out of the 4 fail and die off. In your stated understanding that would mean 3 of them lost their Salvation. The parable of the sower has to be in the time line somewhere, you can put it between "believing and receiving". Where would you put it with your understanding?

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You misread what I said to you in the Worship thread.
Here is that post:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/worth-ship.7931783/#post-69243390

I said I believe salvation can be lost or forfeited.
The parable of the sower is but one of the many evidences in Scripture that shows we can lose (or forfeit) our salvation.

I believe the Parable of the Sower shows that two believers were saved initially but then they fell away from the faith (and became unsaved). One fell away due to persecution and the other fell away due to the riches or cares of this life.

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