If you are still sinning you do not belong to Jesus Christ

cgaviria

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Was Paul without the Spirit when he expressed his struggle against sin in Romans 7?
"I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am!"

I already explained this. This was his state before he starting walking in the spirit. This was him when he walked in the flesh, which he affirmed 3 times he no longer walked in.
 
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royal priest

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I already explained this. This was his state before he starting walking in the spirit. This was him when he walked in the flesh, which he affirmed 3 times he no longer walked in.
Sorry, I missed your explanation. Could you show me where he affirmed this?
 
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cgaviria

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Consider the believers at Corinth. They were a congregation fraught with immorality and ignorance of spirituality, often scathed by Paul. Yet He says of them "You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."

Not everyone receives the holy spirit immediately. So it stands to reason that any new believers coming into the assemblies would be bringing in any baggage from their current lives they are repenting from. So any admonishment to not sin, or rebukes for anyone sinning, were directly towards believers that had not yet attained the perfection of the holy spirit.
 
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cgaviria

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Sorry, I missed your explanation. Could you show me where he affirmed this?

[1] In nothing then is there now condemnation to the ones in Christ Jesus, not walking according to flesh, but according to spirit. [2] For the law of the spirit of the life in Christ Jesus freed me from the law of the sin and of death.
(Romans 8:1-2 [ABP])
that the ordinance of the law should be fulfilled in us, to the ones not walking according to flesh, but according to spirit. (Romans 8:4 [ABP])
But you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if indeed spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, this one is not of him. (Romans 8:9 [ABP])

Paul affirms it 3 times.
 
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Wgw

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Agreed, if you're going to disagree with him please do so in a polite and courteous manner. Don't forget to also explain why you disagree :).

It is in my view neither polite nor courteous to variously call another member a "coward," "jerk," "vacuum," "schemer," et cetera.
 
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royal priest

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Paul affirms it 3 times.
Yes, Paul says they no longer walk according to the flesh, but this is indicative of deliverance from bondage, not achieved perfection. Otherwise, it would have been unnecessary for him to exhort them unto holiness in the following chapters.
For example, Romans 12:21; Romans 13:3-4; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 13:13-14; Romans 14:10

Note, especially in Romans 15:14, Paul does not distinguish between those having the Spirit and those in the flesh. All are regarded alike. Each is full of goodness, and needs the occasional admonishment.
 
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cgaviria

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Yes, Paul says they no longer walk according to the flesh, but this is indicative of deliverance from bondage, not achieved perfection. Otherwise, it would have been unnecessary for him to exhort them unto holiness in the following chapters.
For example, Romans 12:21; Romans 13:3-4; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 13:13-14; Romans 14:10

Note, especially in Romans 15:14, Paul does not distinguish between those having the Spirit and those in the flesh. All are regarded alike. Each is full of goodness, and needs the occasional admonishment.

An exhortation is not an implication that they are not living holy lives. Like the command to not steal, just because we are all commanded to not steal does not mean we are all thieves.
 
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redleghunter

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You notice he never refers to any Christian theologian, pastor, or priest who ever agrees with him. I guess that is because they don't exist.

I'm confused...is this a new thread? Were we not discussing this SAME exact topic on another thread?

Does this mean what has already been said somehow does not matter?
 
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royal priest

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An exhortation is not an implication that they are not living holy lives. Like the command to not steal, just because we are all commanded to not steal does not mean we are all thieves.
But, only a thief would be tempted to steal. It would be like exhorting a dog to not behave like a cat.
 
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redleghunter

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You become perfected when you are born of God, why do you think Paul says,


The whole point of the death of Jesus Christ was not just to atone for sin once and for all, but also to bring an end to sin, and to perfect his people, since the blood of animals was never able to perfect, just only to atone for sins, and thus this prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus Christ,


And thus this is the reason why these verses exist,



The way the holy spirit causes a man to never sin again is by removing evil desires, which are the cause of sin, so if you had the desire to commit adultery, you will no longer have that desire, if you were a homosexual, you will no longer want to commit sins of homosexuality, and this truth is a fulfillment of this prophecy,


The heart is where the desires are, so by God removing your heart of flesh, he is removing your evil desires, and giving you a new heart, that has godly desires. How does he do this? By giving you his spirit, and not just any spirit, a new spirit, that was never given before, and that was because the blood of Jesus Christ had not yet been shed to bring forth this new spirit that brings forth perfection. And this prophecy then goes on to say, and "cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments", meaning you will obey God as a consequence of receiving this new holy spirit, and thus be perfected. When receiving holy spirit, this change is instant, hence why we even have an example when Saul has the holy spirit spring upon him,


Receiving holy spirit transforms you into a completely different person. If you are still sinning, you have not truly received holy spirit, hence,



The actual lie of the devil is that you can continue sinning and be right with God. Once you finally realize that you don't have holy spirit, then you ought to find out how you can truly attain him, and thus be freed from sin. No one that hasn't be baptized in holy spirit will be saved. So if you wish to attain salvation, you must work towards attaining this free gift.

The actual lie is a person can be perfect in this mortal body.

Therefore your polemic is invalid.

Unless you know for sure from personal experience this sinless state on earth?

The fallacy of your argument is that if one disagrees with you they are automatically advocating practicing sin, and encouraging it!

That alone is a false dichotomy which makes your proposition invalid as there are alternative and sounder theological premises available.

I will offer some insight with church history. Your proposition is nothing new. The church from time to time encounters sects which promote what is called antinomianism. That is the idea we can be saved but sin all we want. You may want to look up the history of antinomianism and how the church refuted it.

I will tell you they did use a polemic that Christians are perfect and are impervious to sin when filled with the Holy Spirit. These pious men knew better and knew the flesh wars with the spirit. They were humble enough to accept these realities but not succumb to these realities and use them as a crutch to sin. See there's a huge difference.
 
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royal priest

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Yet the command is given to all, whether they are thieves or not.
The point of the command is that we are all thieves. James 2:10 The law is intended to instruct the morally ignorant and condemn sinners. Therefore, it is useless to the perfect man.
 
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cgaviria

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The actual lie is a person can be perfect in this mortal body.

Therefore your polemic is invalid.

Unless you know for sure from personal experience this sinless state on earth?

The fallacy of your argument is that if one disagrees with you they are automatically advocating practicing sin, and encouraging it!

That alone is a false dichotomy which makes your proposition invalid as there are alternative and sounder theological premises available.

I will offer some insight with church history. Your proposition is nothing new. The church from time to time encounters sects which promote what is called antinomianism. That is the idea we can be saved but sin all we want. You may want to look up the history of antinomianism and how the church refuted it.

I will tell you they did use a polemic that Christians are perfect and are impervious to sin when filled with the Holy Spirit. These pious men knew better and knew the flesh wars with the spirit. They were humble enough to accept these realities but not succumb to these realities and use them as a crutch to sin. See there's a huge difference.

The actual lie is a person can be perfect in this mortal body.

Therefore your polemic is invalid.

Unless you know for sure from personal experience this sinless state on earth?

The fallacy of your argument is that if one disagrees with you they are automatically advocating practicing sin, and encouraging it!

That alone is a false dichotomy which makes your proposition invalid as there are alternative and sounder theological premises available.

I will offer some insight with church history. Your proposition is nothing new. The church from time to time encounters sects which promote what is called antinomianism. That is the idea we can be saved but sin all we want. You may want to look up the history of antinomianism and how the church refuted it.

I will tell you they did use a polemic that Christians are perfect and are impervious to sin when filled with the Holy Spirit. These pious men knew better and knew the flesh wars with the spirit. They were humble enough to accept these realities but not succumb to these realities and use them as a crutch to sin. See there's a huge difference.

Obviously it is not a lie if Jesus Christ said "be perfect". Or another verse it be said, " if by one offering he has perfected", and then in another passage, "he who is born of God cannot sin". When people like you regurgitate such nonsense theology, you quickly discard these plain verses indicating that a true man of God cannot sin, as he has been perfected by holy spirit.
 
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Simon Crosby

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This thread is deeply disturbing where St. Paul amd the Gospel of John stress that salvation is through the free grace offered by faith in our Saviour. To whatever degree we are then able to resist sin, it is because of this grace, but continuing to sin surely does not mean we are inextricably damned.
 
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cgaviria

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The point of the command is that we are all thieves. James 2:10 The law is intended to instruct the morally ignorant and condemn sinners. Therefore, it is useless to the perfect man.

Which is why we now have holy spirit, to perfect us, and this fulfill the entire law by having holy spirit.
 
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cgaviria

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This thread is deeply disturbing where St. Paul amd the Gospel of John stress that salvation is through the free grace offered by faith in our Saviour. To whatever degree we are then able to resist sin, it is because of this grace, but continuing to sin surely does not mean we are inextricably damned.

If you continue sinning you will be damned. You need to be freed from sin.
 
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cgaviria

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Then, why does Paul exhort perfectly righteous people who don't need exhortations to live righteous, to live righteously?

Because those letters were given to entire assemblies, who had new believers who had nor yet received the holy spirit and ones that did. So as I said, these exhortations do not imply that they were all disobedient.
 
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