Lord, Lord, Didn't We. . .

miamited · Feb 9, 2016

thatbrian said:
There are many who will come to Christ on the last day and present their track record. They will plead their case by offering up all that they have done as a reason why they deserve Heaven; however, the entire point of Matthew 7:21-23 is that we can't rely on what we have done, but only on what Christ has done. Christ is not saying that we need to do more. He's saying that we need to do less!

Hi brian,

I'm not really in agreement with your claim. I do agree that there are some 'christians' and even whole denominations that do seem to believe and teach that the judgment of God will be one of weighing the good over the bad. I'm just not sure that is the 'entire' point of these words of Jesus. The context of the preceding words of our Lord are about false prophets and that we should be watchful and wary of them. So, it's my understanding that the 'entire' point of this passage isn't really about 'don't depend on your good works to get you into the kingdom', but rather about 'watch out who you listen to and believe - even among those who call themselves 'christians''.

thatbrian said:
“The main thing between you and God is not so much your sins; it's your damnable good works.” - John H. Gerstner

BTW, I'm also curious to know if this little blurb is what you really believe or does it just sound cute tripping off the tongue. I think the Scriptures are quite clear that the 'main' thing between any one of us and our Creator, is our sin. Good works can, of course, be a diversion be which some of us come to depend on, but I'm pretty sure it isn't the 'main' issue that keeps us separated from our God and Father.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Bible Highlighter · Feb 9, 2016

Steeno7 said:
That you do not believe you are sinning, is exactly the problem.

So even when I brush my teeth I sin? Even if somebody knocks me out cold, I am sinning? How so?

...

Bible Highlighter · Feb 9, 2016

Steeno7 said:
Actually no, 1 John 1:8 is speaking about you. And 1 John 1:9 isn't going to help you when you are in denial about what sin is and just how sinful you really are.

Then explain 1 John 2:4 to me in light of 1 John 1:8 if what you say is true.

....

Steeno7 · Feb 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
So even when I brush my teeth I sin? Even if somebody knocks me out cold, I am sinning? How so?

Even as you read this post you sin.

Steeno7 · Feb 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Then explain 1 John 2:4 to me in light of 1 John 1:8 if what you say is true.

You explain your claim to be without sin in light of 1 John 1:8.

jimmyjimmy · Feb 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Jesus is the narrow way. This is very true. For Jesus is the WAY, the truth, and the life. But if you are a follower of Jesus Christ, you will also DO what He says, too. Why? Because Matthew 7:14 is in context to Matthew 7:21 and Matthew 7:26-27. Jesus says not every one who says unto Him, Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21). What is the will of the Father? 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says the will of the Father is to be "holy" or it is our "Sanctification" (Which is a process to make us holy). In fact, Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Matthew 7:26-27 also says that he that does not what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand whereby when the storm came, great was the fall of that house. Jesus says elsewhere in Scripture, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not what I say? This would be evident that the person who is not doing what Jesus says would mean that Jesus is not their Lord (But they have another master that they follow instead). So belief alone is not going to cut it according to the Scriptures. For the type of belief that you propose (i.e. belief alone in Jesus is enough to save) does not exist in God's Word.

...

Jesus, not Moses, is The Gate.

"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)

It seems to me, and many others, that you are following Moses rather than Jesus.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 9, 2016

thatbrian said:
Jesus, not Moses, is The Gate.

"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)

It seems to me, and many others, that you are following Moses rather than Jesus.

The Law of Moses (In the Old Testament) is not the same as the Law of Christ, the Law of Liberty, the Royal Law, and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (In the New Testament). Also, technically speaking, the Law of Moses (Even though we are not under the Law of Moses - but we are under New Covenant law), was given directly to Moses by God Himself. For God had written with His finger on tablets of stone so as to give Moses certain laws.

....

jimmyjimmy · Feb 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
We are told to repent of having both a dead faith and in having dead works towards God in Hebrews 6:1. Repentance is something Jesus Christ commanded of people so as to get their hearts right with God.

....

It says DEAD WORKS, not dead faith.

jimmyjimmy · Feb 9, 2016

miamited said:
Hi brian,

I'm not really in agreement with your claim. I do agree that there are some 'christians' and even whole denominations that do seem to believe and teach that the judgment of God will be one of weighing the good over the bad. I'm just not sure that is the 'entire' point of these words of Jesus. The context of the preceding words of our Lord are about false prophets and that we should be watchful and wary of them. So, it's my understanding that the 'entire' point of this passage isn't really about 'don't depend on your good works to get you into the kingdom', but rather about 'watch out who you listen to and believe - even among those who call themselves 'christians''.

BTW, I'm also curious to know if this little blurb is what you really believe or does it just sound cute tripping off the tongue. I think the Scriptures are quite clear that the 'main' thing between any one of us and our Creator, is our sin. Good works can, of course, be a diversion be which some of us come to depend on, but I'm pretty sure it isn't the 'main' issue that keeps us separated from our God and Father.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hi Ted,

Thanks for the reply.

False prophets work in two ways. One, the deceive us into believing that there is no penalty for sin (surely you will not die) , and two, by convincing us that we are pretty good people because of you works. Convincing us that we are "good" people or that it really doesn't matter what we do both lead to the same place.

As far as the Gerstner quote. You have to think a bit and dig beneath the surface. Look at the story of the Prodigal Son, for example. By the end, the sinner was saved but the elder brother, the one who, in his mind, did the good works, was lost.

You see, the self-righteous cannot be saved; however sinners can be saved. There is all the hope in the world for sinners who know that they are sinners, but no hope for those who "need no physician". That's what Gerstner is getting at.

I hope that explains things.

Best,

Brian

Bible Highlighter · Feb 9, 2016

thatbrian said:
It says DEAD WORKS, not dead faith.

It says of dead works and faith. This is obviously saying a dead faith, too. It is sort of like saying.... I have found a bunch of happy cats and dogs. That does not mean the dogs are not also happy. The dogs would also be included in being happy because the word happy is the adjective before the two things that are mentioned.

In other words, in order to say that I found happy cats and dogs that were not happy, I would have to clarify that fact.

Besides, why would one repent of having a living and good faith? That doesn't make any sense.

....

Bible Highlighter · Feb 9, 2016

thatbrian said:
Hi Ted,

Thanks for the reply.

False prophets work in two ways. One, the deceive us into believing that there is no penalty for sin (surely you will not die) ,

But this is exactly what the Eternal Security Proponent believes. They do not believe their sin will separate them from God.

and two, by convincing us that we are pretty good people because of you works. Convincing us that we are "good" people or that it really doesn't matter what we do both lead to the same place.

The Bible says he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).

As far as the Gerstner quote. You have to think a bit and dig beneath the surface. Look at the story of the Prodigal Son, for example. By the end, the sinner was saved but the elder brother, the one who, in his mind, did the good works, was lost.

Where in the Parable of the Prodigal Son does it say that the elder brother was rejected because he was doing good works?
Also, the Prodigal Son called out to his father to forgive him and that he sinned before heaven. This does not mean he is going to continue to sin. If that was the case, he would have continued to go back to his riotous and sinful life in being prodigal again (away from the father). The whole point that the Prodigal Son returned was so as to get right with his father and do his will. For the Prodigal Son now admits to being like a hired hand or servant.

You see, the self-righteous cannot be saved; however sinners can be saved. There is all the hope in the world for sinners who know that they are sinners, but no hope for those who "need no physician". That's what Gerstner is getting at.

I hope that explains things.

Best,

Brian

No. The Conditonal Security Proponent does not start off thinking they are saved by doing good works. The Conditional Security believer holds to the Biblical view in repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus as their Savior by faith so as to be saved (Apart from works). But this then leads them to walk in the Lord's good ways, though. This is not being self righteous, but it is merely submitting to the Lord and His righteousness. Continuing in sin means that one is rebelling against God and they are serving themselves and sin. You have things backwards.

...

jimmyjimmy · Feb 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
But this is exactly what the Eternal Security Proponent believes. They do not believe their sin will separate them from God.

The Bible says he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).

Where in the Parable of the Prodigal Son does it say that the elder brother was rejected because he was doing good works?
Also, the Prodigal Son called out to his father to forgive him and that he sinned before heaven. This does not mean he is going to continue to sin. If that was the case, he would have continued to go back to his riotous and sinful life in being prodigal again (away from the father). The whole point that the Prodigal Son returned was so as to get right with his father and do his will. For the Prodigal Son that he now admits to being like a hired hand or servant now.

No. The Conditonal Security Proponent does not start off thinking they are saved by doing good works. The Conditional Security believes in repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus as their Savior by faith so as to be saved (Apart from works). But this then leads them to walk in the Lord's good ways, though. This is not being self righteous, but it is merely submitting to the Lord and His righteousness. Continuing in sin means that one is rebelling against God and they are serving themselves and sin. You have things backwards.

...

Is your name Ted?

Bible Highlighter · Feb 9, 2016

thatbrian said:
Is your name Ted?

I can reply to any post I like here. It doesn't matter if you were talking to Ted or not. Posts here on the Christian forums are public and anyone who is Christian in this section can respond. If you wanted to have a private discussion with Ted, then you should have sent him a PM, my friend.

...

miamited · Feb 9, 2016

thatbrian said:
Hi Ted,

Thanks for the reply.

False prophets work in two ways. One, the deceive us into believing that there is no penalty for sin (surely you will not die) , and two, by convincing us that we are pretty good people because of you works. Convincing us that we are "good" people or that it really doesn't matter what we do both lead to the same place.

As far as the Gerstner quote. You have to think a bit and dig beneath the surface. Look at the story of the Prodigal Son, for example. By the end, the sinner was saved but the elder brother, the one who, in his mind, did the good works, was lost.

You see, the self-righteous cannot be saved; however sinners can be saved. There is all the hope in the world for sinners who know that they are sinners, but no hope for those who "need no physician". That's what Gerstner is getting at.

I hope that explains things.

Best,

Brian

Hi brian,

Look, I get it. However, there are two possible errors in your logic. One: false prophets 'work' in one way. They don't tell the truth. Now, what we may take away from that, if we choose to believe the lies and not search for the truth for ourselves, is, if the false prophet is teaching that our works are measured or somehow have any bearing at all on our eternal salvation, we may believe that and set that as our goal. However, the false prophet only did one thing. He didn't tell the truth.

A false prophet may tell you that Jesus is not the only way of salvation. If one who is listening to such a prophet sets their words as truth, then they may seek for other, more agreeable ways, to seek eternal salvation. A false prophet may tell people that they have to give money to the 'church' to be saved. If someone listening sets what that false prophet has said as the truth, then they are liable to pull out their check book and try to buy their way into God's kingdom.

All false prophets do is tell lies. Whether or not those listening believe the lies and follow them, is their own responsibility. There are certainly false prophets that teach the two things you mention, but don't even think to tell others that those are the two ways that false prophets work.

Two: There is no account made as to the eternal destiny of the other son. All we can glean from the story of the prodigal son is that our father desires to show us mercy even though we have sinned against Him. After all, the other son sinned in holding a grudge against his brother and God will have mercy on him also if he repents.

Being a false prophet just means that you don't tell the truth about the things of God. It is something that we must all be mindful of and diligent in our discernment.

What I will say about the quote is that I don't agree that it is true.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Steeno7 · Feb 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
But this is exactly what the Eternal Security Proponent believes. They do not believe their sin will separate them from God.

The Bible says he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).

Where in the Parable of the Prodigal Son does it say that the elder brother was rejected because he was doing good works?
Also, the Prodigal Son called out to his father to forgive him and that he sinned before heaven. This does not mean he is going to continue to sin. If that was the case, he would have continued to go back to his riotous and sinful life in being prodigal again (away from the father). The whole point that the Prodigal Son returned was so as to get right with his father and do his will. For the Prodigal Son now admits to being like a hired hand or servant.

No. The Conditonal Security Proponent does not start off thinking they are saved by doing good works. The Conditional Security believer holds to the Biblical view in repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus as their Savior by faith so as to be saved (Apart from works). But this then leads them to walk in the Lord's good ways, though. This is not being self righteous, but it is merely submitting to the Lord and His righteousness. Continuing in sin means that one is rebelling against God and they are serving themselves and sin. You have things backwards.

...

To summarize. You don't "start off" saving yourself by your works, but you do keep yourself saved by your works. Which is to say you save yourself.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 9, 2016

Steeno7 said:
To summarize. You don't "start off" saving yourself by your works, but you do keep yourself saved by your works. Which is to say you save yourself.

It's more like a cooperation or walk with God whereby He does the "good work" in you once you submitted to Him. Or did you do absolutely nothing when you came to the faith?

....

jimmyjimmy · Feb 9, 2016

miamited said:
Hi brian,

Look, I get it. However, there are two possible errors in your logic. One: false prophets 'work' in one way. They don't tell the truth. Now, what we may take away from that, if we choose to believe the lies and not search for the truth for ourselves, is, if the false prophet is teaching that our works are measured or somehow have any bearing at all on our eternal salvation, we may believe that and set that as our goal. However, the false prophet only did one thing. He didn't tell the truth.

A false prophet may tell you that Jesus is not the only way of salvation. If one who is listening to such a prophet sets their words as truth, then they may seek for other, more agreeable ways, to seek eternal salvation. A false prophet may tell people that they have to give money to the 'church' to be saved. If someone listening sets what that false prophet has said as the truth, then they are liable to pull out their check book and try to buy their way into God's kingdom.

All false prophets do is tell lies. Whether or not those listening believe the lies and follow them, is their own responsibility. There are certainly false prophets that teach the two things you mention, but don't even think to tell others that those are the two ways that false prophets work.

Two: There is no account made as to the eternal destiny of the other son. All we can glean from the story of the prodigal son is that our father desires to show us mercy even though we have sinned against Him. After all, the other son sinned in holding a grudge against his brother and God will have mercy on him also if he repents.

Being a false prophet just means that you don't tell the truth about the things of God. It is something that we must all be mindful of and diligent in our discernment.

What I will say about the quote is that I don't agree that it is true.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I was giving categories, Ted, not a comprehensive list. Other than gospel Christianity, all religion is performance based. The two lies are that your performance will save you or that your performance don't matter. Everything fits into those categories.

Regarding the elder brother. You are technically correct; however, we are left with the elder brother on the outside as far as scripture is concerned. We have no evidence to suggest anything other than his remaining on the outside.. That's the end of the story. If Jesus wanted us to know that the elder brother was brought in, He would have included that, I'm sure.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 9, 2016

miamited said:
Hi brian,

Look, I get it. However, there are two possible errors in your logic. One: false prophets 'work' in one way. They don't tell the truth. Now, what we may take away from that, if we choose to believe the lies and not search for the truth for ourselves, is, if the false prophet is teaching that our works are measured or somehow have any bearing at all on our eternal salvation, we may believe that and set that as our goal. However, the false prophet only did one thing. He didn't tell the truth.

A false prophet may tell you that Jesus is not the only way of salvation. If one who is listening to such a prophet sets their words as truth, then they may seek for other, more agreeable ways, to seek eternal salvation. A false prophet may tell people that they have to give money to the 'church' to be saved. If someone listening sets what that false prophet has said as the truth, then they are liable to pull out their check book and try to buy their way into God's kingdom.

All false prophets do is tell lies. Whether or not those listening believe the lies and follow them, is their own responsibility. There are certainly false prophets that teach the two things you mention, but don't even think to tell others that those are the two ways that false prophets work.

Two: There is no account made as to the eternal destiny of the other son. All we can glean from the story of the prodigal son is that our father desires to show us mercy even though we have sinned against Him. After all, the other son sinned in holding a grudge against his brother and God will have mercy on him also if he repents.

Being a false prophet just means that you don't tell the truth about the things of God. It is something that we must all be mindful of and diligent in our discernment.

What I will say about the quote is that I don't agree that it is true.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Jesus says we can know false prophets by their fruit. He then says a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit or vise versa. Meaning, false prophets are going to have bad fruit in their life. This is obviously sin. For Matthew 7:21 says that only those who do the will of the Father (i.e. the will of God) can enter the Kingdom of God. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says the will of God is to be holy or to be sanctified. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). For the man who did not do what Jesus says is likened to one who built their house upon the sand whereby a storm had destroyed it greatly (Matthew 7:26-27).

...

Steeno7 · Feb 9, 2016

Jason0047 said:
It's more like a cooperation or walk with God whereby He does the "good work" in you once you submitted to Him. Or did you do absolutely nothing when you came to the faith?..

I know all about Christ working in and through me. But, that ain't at all what you're sellin'. No matter how you try to spin it.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 9, 2016

thatbrian said:
I was giving categories, Ted, not a comprehensive list. Other than gospel Christianity, all religion is performance based. The two lies are that your performance will save you or that your performance don't matter. Everything fits into those categories.

Regarding the elder brother. You are technically correct; however, we are left with the elder brother on the outside as far as scripture is concerned. We have no evidence to suggest anything other than his remaining on the outside.. That's the end of the story. If Jesus wanted us to know that the elder brother was brought in, He would have included that, I'm sure.

You didn't do nothing in order to accept the gospel? Is not repenting of your sins and accepting Christ an action or work on your part?

...

Lord, Lord, Didn't We. . .

Ted

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Not I...but Christ

Not I...but Christ

Pardoned Rebel

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Pardoned Rebel

Pardoned Rebel

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Pardoned Rebel

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Ted

Not I...but Christ

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Pardoned Rebel

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Not I...but Christ

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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