LDS BOM explains salvation better than the Bible?

withwonderingawe · Feb 7, 2016

And this from Amaleki in Omni, it’s just this one passage but it says so much.

“And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.”

It’s not the cheap grace which some Evangelicals offer but one which requires you to offer your whole souls as an offering unto him.

ToBeLoved · Feb 7, 2016

withwonderingawe said:
And this from Amaleki in Omni, it’s just this one passage but it says so much.

“And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.”

It’s not the cheap grace which some Evangelicals offer but one which requires you to offer your whole souls as an offering unto him.

Don't you think that saying 'cheap grace' is a little disrepectful to Jesus who died to give us grace? He suffered much when He took the sin of all the world upon Himself, so it was not cheap.

Jane_Doe · Feb 7, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Don't you think that saying 'cheap grace' is a little disrepectful to Jesus who died to give us grace? He suffered much when He took the sin of all the world upon Himself, so it was not cheap.

The term of "cheap grace" was actually coined by was actually coined by a Lutheran pastor, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, whom defined "cheap grace" as “the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Notice what is emphasized in Bonhoeffer’s definition of cheap grace and what is de-emphasized. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the costs involved; hence, the adjective cheap to describe it. (source: http://www.gotquestions.org/cheap-grace.html)

ToBeLoved · Feb 7, 2016

Jane_Doe said:
The term of "cheap grace" was actually coined by was actually coined by a Lutheran pastor, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, whom defined "cheap grace" as “the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Notice what is emphasized in Bonhoeffer’s definition of cheap grace and what is de-emphasized. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the costs involved; hence, the adjective cheap to describe it. (source: http://www.gotquestions.org/cheap-grace.html)

I know people use that terminology, but I still think it is disrespectful to Christ.

Jane_Doe · Feb 7, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
I know people use that terminology, but I still think it is disrespectful to Christ.

The term really doesn't talk about to Christ though: it talks about people treating Him and His grace cheaply. And yes, that is very wrong.

Ironhold · Feb 7, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
I know people use that terminology, but I still think it is disrespectful to Christ.

IMHO, what's disrespectful is the sheer number of mainline Christians who believe that because they made a confession one time they've got an automatic ticket to Heaven regardless of what they do with the rest of their lives.

I've dealt with quite a few people who believed this, including a number of real-life Phelps and Chick types who used cheap grace as a springboard to justify the hate and lies they spewed about other people; their logic was that no matter how many commandments they broke, they weren't actually sinning because they were doing everything "in God's name" and so the ends justified the means.

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

Ironhold said:
IMHO, what's disrespectful is the sheer number of mainline Christians who believe that because they made a confession one time they've got an automatic ticket to Heaven regardless of what they do with the rest of their lives.

I've dealt with quite a few people who believed this, including a number of real-life Phelps and Chick types who used cheap grace as a springboard to justify the hate and lies they spewed about other people; their logic was that no matter how many commandments they broke, they weren't actually sinning because they were doing everything "in God's name" and so the ends justified the means.

But.

That does not change the grace of God and salvation.

We all know examples of people who take things out of context in God's Word. Many people will take meaning from one verse and they do not put it into the context of what the chapter is speaking about.

The Lord is a just and righteous judge. God tells us that He alone knows the heart. And to all those who are saved, they have the Holy Spirit. And the person's spirit and the Holy Spirit TOGETHER confess that one is saved. So God will not be mocked.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

What we know is that God will be the judge. And that God has setup salvation to include the indwelling Holy Spirit living inside CHrist's Own.

I do not think we need to worry that those people will not be judged by God. The tipping point will be Do they have the Holy Spirit?

What I believe that we need to do is to always preach the gospel. To share with people what the Word of God says, because a lot of people do not know. Then, it is up to God to judge all and He will.

withwonderingawe · Feb 8, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Don't you think that saying 'cheap grace' is a little disrepectful to Jesus who died to give us grace? He suffered much when He took the sin of all the world upon Himself, so it was not cheap.

I was once handed a pamphlet which said if I read it and then signed the bottom saying I accepted Jesus into my life I would be saved. That is the teaching of a false and cheap grace. There was nothing about repentance, nothing about baptism and nothing about obedience just believe and you've made it. That is not what the Bible teaches and not at all what the Book of Mormon teaches. The Book of Mormon teaches it takes your whole souls as an offering unto him, you need faithfulness not just belief.

Tawhano · Feb 8, 2016

fatboys said:
Then the restoration isn't for you

This isn’t about the restoration it is about the bold comment that the Book of Mormon does a better job of clearly explaining how a person comes unto Christ than any other book. I am asking for examples where the Bible is unclear and the BOM does a better job explaining it.

Tawhano · Feb 8, 2016

withwonderingawe said:
That is not what the Bible teaches and not at all what the Book of Mormon teaches.

I agree wholeheartedly.

And I must add:

The one thing I have kept in mind when I encounter such things is to remember that just because someone professes to be an ambassador for Christ does not mean they represent Christ’s teachings. When I first came to this forum to ask questions about Mormonism I encountered a Mormon who had a chip on his shoulder. I could have easily decided against Mormonism on his remarks but I knew that he probably did not represent Mormon teachings.

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

withwonderingawe said:
I was once handed a pamphlet which said if I read it and then signed the bottom saying I accepted Jesus into my life I would be saved. That is the teaching of a false and cheap grace. There was nothing about repentance, nothing about baptism and nothing about obedience just believe and you've made it. That is not what the Bible teaches and not at all what the Book of Mormon teaches. The Book of Mormon teaches it takes your whole souls as an offering unto him, you need faithfulness not just belief.

And someone could attend church once and call themselves a Mormon.

Obedience, repentance, ect are about what people are willing to understand about God and what he wants from us.

There are all kinds of people, so let's not throw stones. You guys have Warren Jeff's. Whether he is officially your church or not, everyone ties him to Mormonism so stones can be thrown from both sides.

You have this idea that you can judge Christians by what happened to you once.

That is a deep rabbit hole if we all discuss the things that we have heard about happening once.

Ironhold · Feb 8, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
And someone could attend church once and call themselves a Mormon.

Nope. You can't. If you're not baptized, you're not on the rolls.

There are all kinds of people, so let's not throw stones. You guys have Warren Jeff's. Whether he is officially your church or not, everyone ties him to Mormonism so stones can be thrown from both sides.

Not everyone.

Just the ignorant and the malicious.

The AP Style Book even explicitly states that the media is supposed to make it a point to distinguish just who's being discussed when an item is covering an offshoot sect as opposed to the main body of the church.

Jane_Doe · Feb 8, 2016

I don't think anyone here is arguing that a single group of people is perfect. Rather, it is quite apparent that stupidity and hypocrisy are pretty universal plagues in humanity.

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

Ironhold said:
Nope. You can't. If you're not baptized, you're not on the rolls.

When someone says they are a Mormon no one checks the rolls. People take for granted that someone is who they say they are. That's the reality of it.

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

Ironhold said:
Nope. You can't. If you're not baptized, you're not on the rolls.

Not everyone.

Just the ignorant and the malicious.

The AP Style Book even explicitly states that the media is supposed to make it a point to distinguish just who's being discussed when an item is covering an offshoot sect as opposed to the main body of the church.

This is another example where you think that popular opinion is on your side. Just like so many people judge Christianity by Westboro Baptist Church crazy antics the same happens in every religion.

So in college papers, people use the AP Stylebook and in the press. So that changes popular opinion. I see. Reality is reality.

Tawhano · Feb 8, 2016

withwonderingawe said:
So let’s move on, remember you asked for it

Thank you again for your efforts. I guess what I am really asking is for a comparison of scripture that shows the BOM clearly explains a concept where the Bible is vague.

I looked up the requirements for salvation on LDS.org and oddly most of the scriptures quoted were from the Bible. You would think if the BOM did a better job that it would be quoted with perhaps a parallel verse from the Bible.

Tawhano · Feb 8, 2016

Jane_Doe said:
I don't think anyone here is arguing that a single group of people is perfect. Rather, it is quite apparent that stupidity and hypocrisy are pretty universal plagues in humanity.

Well put.

withwonderingawe · Feb 8, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
But.

That does not change the grace of God and salvation.

We all know examples of people who take things out of context in God's Word. Many people will take meaning from one verse and they do not put it into the context of what the chapter is speaking about.

The Lord is a just and righteous judge. God tells us that He alone knows the heart. And to all those who are saved, they have the Holy Spirit. And the person's spirit and the Holy Spirit TOGETHER confess that one is saved. So God will not be mocked.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

What we know is that God will be the judge. And that God has setup salvation to include the indwelling Holy Spirit living inside CHrist's Own.

I do not think we need to worry that those people will not be judged by God. The tipping point will be Do they have the Holy Spirit?

What I believe that we need to do is to always preach the gospel. To share with people what the Word of God says, because a lot of people do not know. Then, it is up to God to judge all and He will.

If God alone knows what is in the heart then how can a preacher declare someone saved! If only Christ can judge then how can anyone declare themselves saved?

withwonderingawe · Feb 8, 2016

There is an article today in the Meridian Magazine, (not a church owned publication but church members own and write for it. )

How Did Lehi Learn So Much About the Fall?
http://ldsmag.com/how-did-lehi-learn-so-much-about-the-fall/

Pretty good I think, it compares the Book of Mormon to some Old Testament passages.

ToBeLoved · Feb 9, 2016

Ironhold said:
IMHO, what's disrespectful is the sheer number of mainline Christians who believe that because they made a confession one time they've got an automatic ticket to Heaven regardless of what they do with the rest of their lives.

I've dealt with quite a few people who believed this, including a number of real-life Phelps and Chick types who used cheap grace as a springboard to justify the hate and lies they spewed about other people; their logic was that no matter how many commandments they broke, they weren't actually sinning because they were doing everything "in God's name" and so the ends justified the means.

Well why don't you explain how that is disrespectful to Christ. God is the judge and He will judge each one of us.

What is disrespectful is using terms like 'cheap grace' that take what our Savior did on the cross for us and call it cheap.

LDS BOM explains salvation better than the Bible?

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