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Good News: No Hell
- Thread starter LloydK
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Then how can y9ou say, as y9u did, that they were completely and utterly destroyed in the Lake/ If they are living on i9n some sort of horrible punishment, they certainly were not totally destroyed.
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You have misunderstood. Any person cast into the lake of fire is utterly and fully destroyed. Nothing of them survives. Eternal torture is a false doctrine.
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Can anyone express some idea for the relation between the words
hell and hello ...?
When we say hello and when good m-o-r-n-ing ?
What may was the thinking of the English language creator ?
Whitch word is first created ?
Hell ?...or Hello ?
Hello needs a W in the end? ..like Hell-ow?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hello
I remind you that Hell-ios =~SUN in Hell-enic langauge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere
and also that the name of ELI-JAH is closelly meaning to
HELLIOS (in hellenic) but as we seeing in english
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah
seems to come from ELI+JAH
That we all ~know who JAH is ! (not Sellasie ..that many are saying ofcource!)
hell and hello ...?
When we say hello and when good m-o-r-n-ing ?
What may was the thinking of the English language creator ?
Whitch word is first created ?
Hell ?...or Hello ?
Hello needs a W in the end? ..like Hell-ow?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hello
I remind you that Hell-ios =~SUN in Hell-enic langauge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere
and also that the name of ELI-JAH is closelly meaning to
HELLIOS (in hellenic) but as we seeing in english
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah
seems to come from ELI+JAH
That we all ~know who JAH is ! (not Sellasie ..that many are saying ofcource!)
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Nonsense or non sense ?!
What do you mean exactly?
Shall i feel offended?
Non sense is the LANGUAGES of the world and BABEL?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel
BAB+EL
BAB+YLON
WHO DIED IN BABYLON?
Is this nonsense also?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great
Or we, being humans, can not see?
Do you remember that i ve told you about T+ART+ARUS?
...the think like hell in hellenic mythology?
SO a T in front of the ART...
like a T in front of the EST creates the T+EST+AMENT.
Or T+EST+ES of men that creates furhter the DNA instructions?
All those are non sense or nonsense?~!...my friend?!
What do you mean exactly?
Shall i feel offended?
Non sense is the LANGUAGES of the world and BABEL?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel
BAB+EL
BAB+YLON
WHO DIED IN BABYLON?
Is this nonsense also?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great
Or we, being humans, can not see?
Do you remember that i ve told you about T+ART+ARUS?
...the think like hell in hellenic mythology?
SO a T in front of the ART...
like a T in front of the EST creates the T+EST+AMENT.
Or T+EST+ES of men that creates furhter the DNA instructions?
All those are non sense or nonsense?~!...my friend?!
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"Quotes" without any citation or context are meaningless. Since I have actually read the ECF here are some in-context quotes which contradict what you posted.
Justin Martyr- First Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass
And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: "Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; "110 and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: "I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back.
Justin Martyr First Apology Chapter 19
And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that “what is impossible with men is possible with God,” and, “Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell.” And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass
Justin Martyr- Second Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbour, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire,
A certain woman lived with an intemperate4 husband; she herself, too, having formerly been intemperate. But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavoured to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.
But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed.
And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. I or thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach.14
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753
Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 63
In the Apocalypse also, we read theanger of the Lord threatening, and saying, “If any man worship the beastand his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same
shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God mixed in the cup of His anger;and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever; neither shall they have rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image.”
2.Since, therefore, the Lord threatens these torments, these punishments in the day of judgment, to those who obey the devil and sacrifice to idols,how does he think that he can act as a priest of God who has obeyed andserved the priests of the devil; . .
Cyprian Epistle 30 Chapter 7
He has prepared heaven, but He has also prepared hell. He has prepared places of refreshment, but He has also prepared eternal punishment. He has prepared the light that none can approach unto, but He has also prepared the vast and eternal gloom of perpetual night.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Refutation of all Heresies Book 9 Chapter 23
But (they assert) that God is a cause of all things, and that nothing is managed or happens without His will. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unquenchable fire.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato 3
Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is unquenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.
Tatian’s [A.D. 110-172] AddressChapter13
The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.
Tertullian[A.D. 145-220.] De Principiis Part First
the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, andall who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. The philosophers are familiar as well as we with the distinction between a common and a secret fire. Thus that which is in common use is far different from that which we see in divine judgments, whether striking as thunderbolts from heaven, or bursting up out of the earth through mountain-tops; for it does not consume what it scorches, but while it burns it repairs. So the mountains continue ever burning; and a person struck by lighting is even now kept safe from any destroying flame. Anotable proof this of the fire eternal! a notable example of the endless judgment which still supplies punishment with fuel! The mountains burn,and last. How will it be with the wicked and the enemies of God?
Origen [A.D. 185-230-254]De Principiis Book 2 Chapter 3
nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.
Minucius Felix [A.D. 210] The Octavius Chapter 35
Nor is there either measure or termination to these torments. There the intelligent fire burns the limbs and restores them, feeds on them and nourishes them. As the fires of the thunderbolts strike upon the bodies, and do not consume them; as the fires of Mount Aetna and of Mount Vesuvius, and of burning lands everywhere, glow, but are not wasted; so that penal fire is not fed by the waste of those who burn, but is nourished by the unexhausted eating away of their bodies.
And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass
And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: "Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; "110 and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: "I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back.
Justin Martyr First Apology Chapter 19
And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that “what is impossible with men is possible with God,” and, “Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell.” And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass
Justin Martyr- Second Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbour, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire,
A certain woman lived with an intemperate4 husband; she herself, too, having formerly been intemperate. But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavoured to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.
But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed.
And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. I or thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach.14
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753
Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 63
In the Apocalypse also, we read theanger of the Lord threatening, and saying, “If any man worship the beastand his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same
shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God mixed in the cup of His anger;and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever; neither shall they have rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image.”
2.Since, therefore, the Lord threatens these torments, these punishments in the day of judgment, to those who obey the devil and sacrifice to idols,how does he think that he can act as a priest of God who has obeyed andserved the priests of the devil; . .
Cyprian Epistle 30 Chapter 7
He has prepared heaven, but He has also prepared hell. He has prepared places of refreshment, but He has also prepared eternal punishment. He has prepared the light that none can approach unto, but He has also prepared the vast and eternal gloom of perpetual night.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Refutation of all Heresies Book 9 Chapter 23
But (they assert) that God is a cause of all things, and that nothing is managed or happens without His will. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unquenchable fire.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato 3
Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is unquenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.
Tatian’s [A.D. 110-172] AddressChapter13
The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.
Tertullian[A.D. 145-220.] De Principiis Part First
the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, andall who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. The philosophers are familiar as well as we with the distinction between a common and a secret fire. Thus that which is in common use is far different from that which we see in divine judgments, whether striking as thunderbolts from heaven, or bursting up out of the earth through mountain-tops; for it does not consume what it scorches, but while it burns it repairs. So the mountains continue ever burning; and a person struck by lighting is even now kept safe from any destroying flame. Anotable proof this of the fire eternal! a notable example of the endless judgment which still supplies punishment with fuel! The mountains burn,and last. How will it be with the wicked and the enemies of God?
Origen [A.D. 185-230-254]De Principiis Book 2 Chapter 3
nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.
Minucius Felix [A.D. 210] The Octavius Chapter 35
Nor is there either measure or termination to these torments. There the intelligent fire burns the limbs and restores them, feeds on them and nourishes them. As the fires of the thunderbolts strike upon the bodies, and do not consume them; as the fires of Mount Aetna and of Mount Vesuvius, and of burning lands everywhere, glow, but are not wasted; so that penal fire is not fed by the waste of those who burn, but is nourished by the unexhausted eating away of their bodies.
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That's still all nonsense, non-sense or non sense....same thing.
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Of course I believe in hell. There are three places called hell in scripture and I believe in all three.
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The punishment is death, and that is eternal. There is no such thing as eternal torture. You claim those in the lake of fire live forever yet God promises they will die. Hell/the lake of fire destroys and I already explained that in this thread.
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The wages of sin is death but that verse does not say the wages of sin is death, resurrection then a second death. The Bible also says that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." I understand that to mean all 100% of mankind past, present and future have or will sin and have died or will die. Where does the Bible say the Lake of Fire [LOF] destroys?
While the LOF is called "the second death" not one verse in Revelation says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they die. The devil, the beast and the false prophet, a person, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night forever and ever. So the LOF is not synonymous with death.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
...
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Death, is the point in time end of life, it is not alive, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Hell is either the grave or the place of eternal punishment it is not alive. Neither death nor hell have or even could die a first time, so they certainly can't die a second time. Again the LOF is not synonymous with death....
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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Someone said: "Love allows a person to have what they want, regardless of what they need. See Eve in the garden for proof."
That's not proof. Most things I want temporarily I never get. When I do get what I want, I often don't want it so much after all, or I no longer want it. If anyone wanted existence without God, they could never get it, because God is always everywhere. But God might let them be oblivious to him for while. But no one would ever want the same thing forever. They'd be bound to run into some situation that would make them curious. It's naive to imagine that anyone's desires would remain forever one way. God remains forever the same, but no person does.
When I said Good News, No Hell, I meant no permanent hell and I meant Jesus saves everyone, as per the good shepherd and the lost sheep and many other passages as explained at http://tentmaker.org . Of course, most of us experience some amount of Hell in this life and maybe most do initially in the next life as well. But no matter how dumb, or stubborn, or malicious anyone may become, God's love is more powerful and will prevail. That's why the Bible is Good News.
PS, anyone who wants to believe that many, most, or a goodly number of people will experience eternal torture is free to do so, but will you be heart-broken if you ultimately find out that your belief is wrong?
That's not proof. Most things I want temporarily I never get. When I do get what I want, I often don't want it so much after all, or I no longer want it. If anyone wanted existence without God, they could never get it, because God is always everywhere. But God might let them be oblivious to him for while. But no one would ever want the same thing forever. They'd be bound to run into some situation that would make them curious. It's naive to imagine that anyone's desires would remain forever one way. God remains forever the same, but no person does.
When I said Good News, No Hell, I meant no permanent hell and I meant Jesus saves everyone, as per the good shepherd and the lost sheep and many other passages as explained at http://tentmaker.org . Of course, most of us experience some amount of Hell in this life and maybe most do initially in the next life as well. But no matter how dumb, or stubborn, or malicious anyone may become, God's love is more powerful and will prevail. That's why the Bible is Good News.
PS, anyone who wants to believe that many, most, or a goodly number of people will experience eternal torture is free to do so, but will you be heart-broken if you ultimately find out that your belief is wrong?
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I'm going to have to disagree with that POV. I kept a lot of things from my kids that they wanted. Including the keys to the car before they were 16 and access to the guns before they were 'old enough'. Did I let them touch something 'hot', even after I said; 'Don't touch honey...HOT!" Yes I did, but I knew that 'this hot' was, in no way, going to traumatize or scar them for life. But it would certainly help to teach them what "HOT!" meant. Most Christians today are so temporally minded they think this 'vapor of a life' is the whole tamale in God' plan for the ages, and for His entire creation. And then they leap to the judicial ignorance of believing that this 'speck' in time justifies 'eternal torture' or 'eternal annihilation'...even for those who've never even heard of the name of the one you must call upon to be saved.
Can you, or anyone, presume to know more than God knew, before He allowed the serpent, which he created to be the "smartest beast of the field", to leave the field and enter "the garden"? God wouldn't have 'slain the son from the foundation of the world' if His plan didn't include provision for what was going to take place in 'the garden'. All was according to His plan and His council, which is a whole lot smarter than the position of the church majority, of today.
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There are many interpretations of Revelations, Ewq1938. I am inclined to think it is largely symbolic of the Roman Empire and a hope for its immediate downfall. There is no doubt that in Christianity fire is a symbol of God and also of purification. The problem with Rev. is figuring out what it means to throw Death and Hades into the fire. The Devil is thrown in, but lives on. So, what happens to those whose names aren't in the book of life?
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But, Hillsage, if you are claiming, as you appear to be doing, that everything that happens is predestined by God, then we have absolutely no freedom, and God ends up being the author of terrible evil and suffering.
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Speaking of evil, evil is simply immaturity. God made us all immature to start with and he let us observe ourselves maturing and he let us participate in it. Emotional pain is communication from God to let us know that something is wrong with our thinking or doing. So, when we have such pain, we can ask God what's wrong with our thinking etc, and we might start to get a clue. Or his messengers might give us a hint.
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Jesus said the opposite, that most will end up being destroyed and the lesser amount of people will find life.
Anyone claiming the opposite is not representing the truth about the saved and unsaved.
Excellent article:
http://www.godkind.org/universal-salvation.html
Universal Salvation: Spiritual fact or Satanic fiction?
The concept of universal salvation is making the rounds in some COG groups and some individuals in recent times. Is this doctrine true, safe and "good news" like so many seem to be espousing, or is universal salvation just another Satanic deception that has far greater implications if this concept is carried to its logical conclusions? Read More Here
<Staff Edit>
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Maybe he lives on, it can be understood that he doesn't. Every scripture pertaining to the fate of the unsaved say they die and are fully destroyed. They are those who do not receive eternal life.
Also, Rome was a shadow of what is to come.
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