I Can't Vote...Who's With Me?

Thursday · Feb 5, 2016

ALoveDivine said:
So looking at the potential candidates this upcoming election, I've concluded that I will not be voting. I know voting is in a real sense a civic duty, and this is not an easy decision to make. Unfortunately, when voting for either candidate entails endorsing moral evil, it makes more sense for us to simply not vote. At least then we are not complicit in said evil.

First we have the Republicans. Many are pro-life, some are not. But they are only pro-life in opposing abortion. Many seem to have no problem with throwing desperately poor families off the measly food-stamps and other forms of welfare they receive. Oh yeah they are explicitly in favor of keeping healthcare privatized and out of the hands of millions of poor Americans like myself. Many also seem to have no problem with notions like establishing no-fly zones over Syria and shooting down Russian jets, potentially sparking World War 3, while simultaneously arming "moderate" terrorists. So yeah, obviously there is some real moral evil there. And need I mention Trump?

Then we have the Democrats. Explicitly and unapologetically pro-murder of the unborn. They also support aggressive and absurd foreign policy, like supporting rebels and overthrowing corrupt but otherwise stable regimes in other parts of the world. Yet they are slightly less likely to get us involved in a long and bloody war with troops on the ground. On the only positive side they support progressive economic policies that may in fact help the poor and vulnerable. Yet their unwavering support for the right of women to murder their children makes it almost impossible for any Christian to vote for this party in good conscience.

So you see the dilemma. Both parties promote moral evil. No matter who you vote for, people are going to suffer and die, and by voting you become complicit in that. By not voting we are saying "no" to a choice between Evil 1 and Evil 2. By not voting we are doing the closest thing we can to voting for good. When good doesn't exist on the ballot, abstention is the only vote for good we have.

Thoughts?

I think your characterization of the Republicans is way off base, other than maybe Trump.

Republicans want to help the poor succeed. Democrats need the poor to stay poor so they depend on the government for basic needs.

Extraneous · Feb 5, 2016

The way i see religion and politics. This is my non Catholic, non voter, opinion.

James says that pure, un-defiled religion is to take care of the widows and orphans, and to keep ourselves un-spotted by the world. Spots would include things like contention and deception, which is not spiritual. This is the conclusion i came to after reading paul's letters.

Politics on one hand seems to be an avenue by which we can help the poor, but the political road is paved in contention and deception. So it may help the poor but it also blemishes our pure religion.

ALoveDivine · Feb 5, 2016

Republicans want to help the poor succeed.

By kicking them off the food stamps they rely on to feed their families? By cutting the unemployment they need to keep a roof over their head after having gotten laid off? Such policies aren't going to help the poor succeed, its going to put them on the street. If Republicans managed to gut all the "entitlements" (necessary welfare) they wanted to, we'd have children starving and freezing to death on the streets in the middle of winter.

The notion of succeeding is itself problematic. For every one brain surgeon, you're going to have 1,000 people who cook the fast food he eats on the way to work. The numbers are obvious. The real high-paying careers, which someone would NEED in order to survive in Republican free-market fantasy-land, are few and far between compared the the large number of low-paying service industry jobs. A market economy is inherently designed in such a way that only a minority will get the really high-paying jobs while the majority will be stuck in a much lower bracket. Hence the fundamental flaw of Republican policy. By gutting social welfare you are essentially slowly killing the most poor and vulnerable.

dogs4thewin · Feb 6, 2016

ALoveDivine said:
By kicking them off the food stamps they rely on to feed their families? By cutting the unemployment they need to keep a roof over their head after having gotten laid off? Such policies aren't going to help the poor succeed, its going to put them on the street. If Republicans managed to gut all the "entitlements" (necessary welfare) they wanted to, we'd have children starving and freezing to death on the streets in the middle of winter.

The notion of succeeding is itself problematic. For every one brain surgeon, you're going to have 1,000 people who cook the fast food he eats on the way to work. The numbers are obvious. The real high-paying careers, which someone would NEED in order to survive in Republican free-market fantasy-land, are few and far between compared the the large number of low-paying service industry jobs. A market economy is inherently designed in such a way that only a minority will get the really high-paying jobs while the majority will be stuck in a much lower bracket. Hence the fundamental flaw of Republican policy. By gutting social welfare you are essentially slowly killing the most poor and vulnerable.

The Republicans are in favor of it been a hand-up and that government assistance is quite frankly not MEANT to be a comfortable life they do not want people to want to be dependent. As someone who used to be on SSI I hated the watching my resources at the same time I LIKED it because I KNEW they were doing that to avoid abuse. However, since my dad passed away I am on his death benefits which are not need based and therefore they do not watch my resources.

AHH who-stole-my-name · Feb 6, 2016

dogs4thewin said:
I do plan to vote and with all due respect for your decision I feel that if you do not vote (you being used generally here do not vote you again (general) have no right to complain.

My grandfather said sometimes you are not voting for but whether aganist.

One option you may have is to vote third party which while it is a safe bet the person would not win at least you would be voting.

Agreed! Negative advertising has resulted in much of this frustration and the only person who truely looses here are those that silence themselves.

ALoveDivine · Feb 6, 2016

The Republicans are in favor of it been a hand-up

Fox-news talking points do not change the reality on the ground. Those of us who work full-time, low-income jobs (which are NEEDED) cannot afford to succeed. We have a hard enough time paying rent and feeding ourselves, let alone affording egregiously expensive health insurance, car insurance, car payments, gas, utilities, etc.

Want to give us a "hand up"? Then either the cost of living needs to go down, or the money we earn needs to go up. Preferably both. Until that happens, some measure of government assistance is NECESSARY, ie a life and death issue, for millions of poor working Americans. It makes me sick to my stomach that there is even such a thing as the "working poor".

government assistance is quite frankly not MEANT to be a comfortable life they do not want people to want to be dependent.

Great. Unfortunately we live in a vicious and evil economy where most new wealth goes to the top .1% while wages decline and the cost of living goes up for millions and millions of working people. It's pretty messed up when you can work full time and not be able to pay to heat your house in the winter. Its pretty sick that you can work full time and not be able to take your sick child to the hospital because you are uninsured and cannot afford insurance, and aren't even offered any through your job.

DROP THE FREE MARKET FANTASY TALKING POINTS and get acquainted with the reality of life for millions of people in this country. We are overworked, underpaid, stressed to the brink, and incredibly angry, and the while a tiny elite of financial plutocrats makes off with all of the wealth. And Republicans want to keep this status quo. Yeah, no thanks.

dogs4thewin · Feb 6, 2016

ALoveDivine said:
Fox-news talking points do not change the reality on the ground. Those of us who work full-time, low-income jobs (which are NEEDED) cannot afford to succeed. We have a hard enough time paying rent and feeding ourselves, let alone affording egregiously expensive health insurance, car insurance, car payments, gas, utilities, etc.

Want to give us a "hand up"? Then either the cost of living needs to go down, or the money we earn needs to go up. Preferably both. Until that happens, some measure of government assistance is NECESSARY, ie a life and death issue, for millions of poor working Americans. It makes me sick to my stomach that there is even such a thing as the "working poor".

Great. Unfortunately we live in a vicious and evil economy where most new wealth goes to the top .1% while wages decline and the cost of living goes up for millions and millions of working people. It's pretty messed up when you can work full time and not be able to pay to heat your house in the winter. Its pretty sick that you can work full time and not be able to take your sick child to the hospital because you are uninsured and cannot afford insurance, and aren't even offered any through your job.

DROP THE FREE MARKET FANTASY TALKING POINTS and get acquainted with the reality of life for millions of people in this country. We are overworked, underpaid, stressed to the brink, and incredibly angry, and the while a tiny elite of financial plutocrats makes off with all of the wealth. And Republicans want to keep this status quo. Yeah, no thanks.

Look, with all due respect working hard does not promise you will do well, but not working hard will usually promise you will not. I am not accusing you of NOT working hard I am simply saying that for people who do NOT there is a good chance they will not go far, but for people who do there is no promise of doing well.

As for the cost of living it depends some places are cheaper than other places. Usually the country tends to be cheaper, as sometimes people grow and raise their own food ( though trust me raising your own meat is not cheap, but you also do not have to buy it as often). Trust me, my grandfather used to raise cattle and still does sometimes despite being nearly 80. There is a reason steak cost so much and it is not completely just greed when 400 dollars to slaughter a cow and that is not counting the land and food for the winter.

Cos-play · Feb 8, 2016

ALoveDivine said:
So looking at the potential candidates this upcoming election, I've concluded that I will not be voting. I know voting is in a real sense a civic duty, and this is not an easy decision to make. Unfortunately, when voting for either candidate entails endorsing moral evil, it makes more sense for us to simply not vote. At least then we are not complicit in said evil.

First we have the Republicans. Many are pro-life, some are not. But they are only pro-life in opposing abortion. Many seem to have no problem with throwing desperately poor families off the measly food-stamps and other forms of welfare they receive. Oh yeah they are explicitly in favor of keeping healthcare privatized and out of the hands of millions of poor Americans like myself. Many also seem to have no problem with notions like establishing no-fly zones over Syria and shooting down Russian jets, potentially sparking World War 3, while simultaneously arming "moderate" terrorists. So yeah, obviously there is some real moral evil there. And need I mention Trump?

Then we have the Democrats. Explicitly and unapologetically pro-murder of the unborn. They also support aggressive and absurd foreign policy, like supporting rebels and overthrowing corrupt but otherwise stable regimes in other parts of the world. Yet they are slightly less likely to get us involved in a long and bloody war with troops on the ground. On the only positive side they support progressive economic policies that may in fact help the poor and vulnerable. Yet their unwavering support for the right of women to murder their children makes it almost impossible for any Christian to vote for this party in good conscience.

So you see the dilemma. Both parties promote moral evil. No matter who you vote for, people are going to suffer and die, and by voting you become complicit in that. By not voting we are saying "no" to a choice between Evil 1 and Evil 2. By not voting we are doing the closest thing we can to voting for good. When good doesn't exist on the ballot, abstention is the only vote for good we have.

Thoughts?

Get off you butt pick a party - don't care which one - go to the local party headquarters and volunteer to get involved as a delegate. Work to change the party to the way you want it to be.

Either that or, respectfully, shut up your lack of choices. If you're not willing to work to get what you want in as safe a political environment as the USA (people very rarely disappear for getting involved in politics - not every country can make that claim) you're complains are meaningless crud from a spoiled, lazy child.

Again, with all due respect.

Michie · Feb 8, 2016

Gee! You sounded like MikeK right there.

Cos-play said:
Get off you butt pick a party - don't care which one - go to the local party headquarters and volunteer to get involved as a delegate. Work to change the party to the way you want it to be.

Either that or, respectfully, shut up your lack of choices. If you're not willing to work to get what you want in as safe a political environment as the USA (people very rarely disappear for getting involved in politics - not every country can make that claim) you're complains are meaningless crud from a spoiled, lazy child.

Again, with all due respect.

Imperiuz · Feb 9, 2016

The OP actually seems quite similar to me: socially conservative, fiscally moderate.

From my experience though, conservatives are in general a lot more tolerant towards different options than left-wingers are. I always perceived a guy like Rick Santorum to be more like me, but I can't tell for sure, since I'm not living in the U.S.

Of course, different issues have different moral value from a catholic perspective as well.

Cos-play · Feb 9, 2016

Imperiuz said:
perience though, conservatives are in general a lot more tolerant towards different options than left-wingers are. I always perceived a guy like Rick Santorum to be more like me, but I can't tell for sure, since I'm not living in the U.S.

Yes, Rick Santorium has a well known reputation for his tolerance and embracing of differing views.

He supports the entire spectrum of Catholic theocratic thought.

WarriorAngel · Feb 9, 2016

ALoveDivine said:
So looking at the potential candidates this upcoming election, I've concluded that I will not be voting. I know voting is in a real sense a civic duty, and this is not an easy decision to make. Unfortunately, when voting for either candidate entails endorsing moral evil, it makes more sense for us to simply not vote. At least then we are not complicit in said evil.

First we have the Republicans. Many are pro-life, some are not. But they are only pro-life in opposing abortion. Many seem to have no problem with throwing desperately poor families off the measly food-stamps and other forms of welfare they receive. Oh yeah they are explicitly in favor of keeping healthcare privatized and out of the hands of millions of poor Americans like myself. Many also seem to have no problem with notions like establishing no-fly zones over Syria and shooting down Russian jets, potentially sparking World War 3, while simultaneously arming "moderate" terrorists. So yeah, obviously there is some real moral evil there. And need I mention Trump?

Then we have the Democrats. Explicitly and unapologetically pro-murder of the unborn. They also support aggressive and absurd foreign policy, like supporting rebels and overthrowing corrupt but otherwise stable regimes in other parts of the world. Yet they are slightly less likely to get us involved in a long and bloody war with troops on the ground. On the only positive side they support progressive economic policies that may in fact help the poor and vulnerable. Yet their unwavering support for the right of women to murder their children makes it almost impossible for any Christian to vote for this party in good conscience.

So you see the dilemma. Both parties promote moral evil. No matter who you vote for, people are going to suffer and die, and by voting you become complicit in that. By not voting we are saying "no" to a choice between Evil 1 and Evil 2. By not voting we are doing the closest thing we can to voting for good. When good doesn't exist on the ballot, abstention is the only vote for good we have.

Thoughts?

I still like Ben Carson.

There is so little to uncover on him - he's virtually ignored.

Cos-play · Feb 9, 2016

WarriorAngel said:
I still like Ben Carson.

There is so little to uncover on him - he's virtually ignored.

Being virtually ignored is why he's being actually ignored.

WarriorAngel · Feb 9, 2016

Cos-play said:
Being virtually ignored is why he's being actually ignored.

I think he's ignored because he was a self starter who actually didnt use the system and taxes to make his way into the great surgeon he became.
Plus he is Christian..and happy to be so.

So instead of tearing him apart - because of the excellent strides he made, the parties say very little about him - keeping him out of the spot light.
The only opposition he has had is the atheists who chime in to make fun of his Christianity.

So you see - it's the quiet ones who are the best - because there isnt anything bad to state against him.
Negative lime light is still lime light.

Michie · Feb 9, 2016

He is a Seventh Day Adventist was the last I heard.

WarriorAngel said:
I think he's ignored because he was a self starter who actually didnt use the system and taxes to make his way into the great surgeon he became.
Plus he is Christian..and happy to be so.

So instead of tearing him apart - because of the excellent strides he made, the parties say very little about him - keeping him out of the spot light.
The only opposition he has had is the atheists who chime in to make fun of his Christianity.

So you see - it's the quiet ones who are the best - because there isnt anything bad to state against him.
Negative lime light is still lime light.

WarriorAngel · Feb 9, 2016

Michie said:
He is a Seventh Day Adventist was the last I heard.

I checked, yes he is.
But fortunately he cant make us all 7th day.

But he can unravel the health care mess catastrophy of Obama.

Michie · Feb 9, 2016

WarriorAngel said:
I checked, yes he is.
But fortunately he cant make us all 7th day.
But he can unravel the health care mess catastrophy of Obama.

He will never get into office. I have bad experiences with SDA and their theology requires that one must be very anti-catholic. Not to mention they consider St. Michael to be Jesus, etc. So I question their authenticity to be honest.

WarriorAngel · Feb 9, 2016

Michie said:
He will never get into office. I have bad experiences with SDA and their theology requires that one must be very anti-catholic. Not to mention they consider St. Michael to be Jesus, etc. So I question their authenticity to be honest.

They are the creators of JW's. I know that.
But as pres he wont be teaching theology.

Michie · Feb 9, 2016

He will be too busy learning foreign policy.

WarriorAngel said:
They are the creators of JW's. I know that.
But as pres he wont be teaching theology.

WarriorAngel · Feb 9, 2016

Michie said:
He will be too busy learning foreign policy.

Probably.
And we need some back bone in that area.
Man, we need some kick butt in that area.
Obama has us looking like weaklings and dolts.

I Can't Vote...Who's With Me?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Saved By Grace

dog lover

in accordance with Christ

Saved By Grace

dog lover

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Liberty will prevail

Well-Known Member

I close my eyes and see you smile

Well-Known Member

I close my eyes and see you smile

Well-Known Member

I close my eyes and see you smile

Well-Known Member

I close my eyes and see you smile

Well-Known Member

I close my eyes and see you smile

Similar threads