LDS Lucifer and Jesus are not brothers!

Peter1000 · Feb 7, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Where is the verse that states we will create worlds? There are verses stating we will have a new earth, we will live in the New Jerusalem, we will eat of the tree of life and drink of the water of life, that we will sup with God on this new earth. There is a description of the New Jerusalem with the measurements of it, streets of gold. There are statement's about this remade earth, but nothing is said about us creating other worlds---that I can find. Of course---this still has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus is the creator God that made everything, in and out of this world, visible and invisible--He made Lucifer and is therefore not Lucifer's brother and is therefore off topic. I stray off topic easily it seems.

It's OK, these topics are interrelated, it is very easy to move from one to another.

Again, this is a topic that is not said directly in a scripture. But again, adding up many scriptures that touch the topic, we get a glimpse of the doctrine. For instance:
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The Father created, so did the Son. When we sit with Jesus in his throne, we too will do only those things that Jesus did, for what things soever Jesus doeth, these also doeth those that sit in his throne (my thoughts). Jesus created, so we will create.

Creation is God the Father's crown jewel. It is Jesus's crown jewel, it will be our crown jewell.

2 Peter 1:4 says that if we overcome the lust of this world we can partake of the
"divine nature". Part of the "divine nature" is to create.

1 Cor. 2:9 says, "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." Could one of those unseen, unheard of preparations be learning how to create?

There are many other scriptures that tell us to be like God the Father and Jesus, that is the ultimate goal of the creation, to have your children grow up to praise you, love you, and be like you.

Peter1000 · Feb 7, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Ahh, yes, the lust for power---have it bad, don't you?

Omniscience---that word interests you----Moroni--the angel that brings JS his golden plates which contain the essence of your believes gets a "fairly meaningless"---omniscience, on the other hand, gets you drooling. I find that very telling. I have this picture in mind of you-----ever seen the original Frankenstein with Boris Karloff as the monster. The scene where the Dr brings the monster to life---just insert selfie there. This fits in nicely with posts #988 and #993.

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

I thought we were having a meaningful discussion?

ToBeLoved · Feb 7, 2016

Peter1000 said:
The Father created, so did the Son. When we sit with Jesus in his throne, we too will do only those things that Jesus did, for what things soever Jesus doeth, these also doeth those that sit in his throne (my thoughts). Jesus created, so we will create.

Creation is God the Father's crown jewel. It is Jesus's crown jewel, it will be our crown jewell.

I'm pretty sure that GOd the Father did not create anything. All creation was done by the Son.

I see your opinion is that if you sit on the throne you will do the same things that Jesus did. I don't think that will happen.

Peter1000 · Feb 7, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
I'm pretty sure that GOd the Father did not create anything. All creation was done by the Son.

I see your opinion is that if you sit on the throne you will do the same things that Jesus did. I don't think that will happen.

To say the God of Jesus did not create is taking John 5:19 and ripping it out of the bible.

Jesus says he did what he saw his father do.

So it is certainly biblically feasible to say that the God of Jesus created.

Mormons equate God the Father with the Hebrew name Elohim. They equate Jesus with the Hebrew name Yahweh.
Elohim is the first and only creator God mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis. Elohim in English is translated God.

Yahweh is first mentioned in the second chapter of Genesis vs 4. Yahweh in English is translated Lord God. In the first 3 vs of chapter 2 it states that Elohim finished the heavens and the earth and then blessed the seventh day and rested from all of his work that he had made and created.

In the 4th vserse Yahweh starts another creation scenerio.

So in the first 2 chapters of Genesis, there are 2 creations.

This is confusing, unless you know that everything God the Father/Elohim created in the first chapter were spirit entities. Then in the second chapter Yahweh/Jesus was then given the power and authority of Elohim to create all the physical entities of the heavens and the earth.

Now the whole creation business makes sense and the bible is reconciled.

mmksparbud · Feb 7, 2016

fatboys said:
Is your desire to be better than you are a sign of

is wanting to be perfect like the Father a lust for power? The Father promises us all that he has if we remain true and faithful. By the way the Book of Mormon says nothing about us being all powerful. Read the book. Also what you have said here is very rude and condescending.

Rude and condescending?--Well, maybe, seeing this desire to be an equal to Christ I find rather offensive. It makes me cringe. There is a difference between wanting to be Christ like, and wanting His power. We won't be healing the sick or raising the dead after the resurrection as there won't be any sickness or death. Creating?---He never mentions anything about it. To take a piece of gold and make something out of it that is functional and beautiful is creating, to make the gold out of nothing is a whole other thing--I'll take the gold, I do not aspire to making the gold. I'll take a newly recreated earth, I have no desire to create a world, I'll leave that to He who creates all things.

Peter1000 said:
Aren't you the one that said "there is no shared throne"?

That was me. I forgot about that verse as I do not think along the terms of sharing a throne with Jesus. Like I said, you'll have to take a number as there are billions of others standing in line, I guess. I find nothing in the bible about us creating worlds. Just things about the new earth. You see, I have this picture of Jesus from a dream I once had. A bench in the new earth, next to a lake with swans, and lions and bears and gigantic furry wolves all around our feet. The bench is carved out of this tree, a part of it, all living. Carved by Christ, just for me (He was a carpenter, after all)--the bench has vines carved into it. It is our bench. He meets me there, that is our place. Thrones don't really interest me.

fatboys said:
By the way the Book of Mormon says nothing about us being all powerful.

I didn't say it did. I said Peter1000 sounded covetous of Christ's power. I've read enough of the BOM. I am not going to read every word. I prayed first, as I do with all such things, including before coming on this site. I did not find God in it. The very language of it sounded contrived. Sorry, not trying to be insulting--(I know, I don't have to try!)---but that's just the way I found it.

Jane_Doe · Feb 7, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Rude and condescending?--Well, maybe, seeing this desire to be an equal to Christ I find rather offensive. It makes me cringe. There is a difference between wanting to be Christ like, and wanting His power.

The desire is to learn His traits (kindness, forgiveness, patience, etc) as His disciple. Any amount of power is not the focus, but rather a secondary happen-stance tag-a-long.

mmksparbud · Feb 7, 2016

Peter1000 said:
In the 4th vserse Yahweh starts another creation scenerio.

So in the first 2 chapters of Genesis, there are 2 creations.

This is confusing, unless you know that everything God the Father/Elohim created in the first chapter were spirit entities. Then in the second chapter Yahweh/Jesus was then given the power and authority of Elohim to create all the physical entities of the heavens and the earth.

Now the whole creation business makes sense and the bible is reconciled.

Oh, good Grief--so you guys also think there were 2 creations--0well you and Aman should get together. You agree on some things test drive the rest of us crazy. There was only 1 creation, not two. Gen 2 is simply Gen 1 with added details, there is nothing to reconcile, but I know you will not see it that way and I have no wish to go down that useless road again as I did with Aman--you can look up the thread "Adam was formed on day 3" and enjoy yourselves. This is just one more in an increasingly long list of things that are totally non-biblical and want nothing to do with.

Jane_Doe · Feb 7, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Oh, good Grief--so you guys also think there were 2 creations--0well you and Aman should get together. You agree on some things test drive the rest of us crazy.

It is quite evident in the Bible that not all creation happened at once. For instance, Lucifer and the sons of God were created before this Earth.

mmksparbud · Feb 7, 2016

That's obvious---Genesis is talking about the 6 day creation week and that is what you and Aman mean. That conversation went on for far too long and I'm not going there again. Ridiculous and too tired to be gentle about it. Made 3, 12 in. pizzas and chicken wings and blueberry pie for the game for hubby and friends and am exhausted. The old grey mare ain't what she used to be.

Peter1000 · Feb 8, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Oh, good Grief--so you guys also think there were 2 creations--0well you and Aman should get together. You agree on some things test drive the rest of us crazy. There was only 1 creation, not two. Gen 2 is simply Gen 1 with added details, there is nothing to reconcile, but I know you will not see it that way and I have no wish to go down that useless road again as I did with Aman--you can look up the thread "Adam was formed on day 3" and enjoy yourselves. This is just one more in an increasingly long list of things that are totally non-biblical and want nothing to do with.

2 creations is absolutely biblical. Let me show you.

Read Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 2:2-3
26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all hiswork which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Creation all done, right? God/Elohim created and then rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Done deal?

Now read Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This is an interesting scripture, because it is not only a second creation of man, (who was created in chapter 1 along with the female) but an entirely different person is creating man the second time.
Yahweh/Jesus is the second creator in the second chapter.

Genesis 2:5 is one of the most interesting scriptures in the bible and is the key to the whole creation. It divides the spirit creation by God/Elohim (1st) and the natural/material creation by Jesus/Yahweh (2nd).

Great subject, it is one of the steps neccesary to know that Jesus and lucifer were brothers.

Peter1000 · Feb 8, 2016

mmksparbud said:
That's obvious---Genesis is talking about the 6 day creation week and that is what you and Aman mean. That conversation went on for far too long and I'm not going there again. Ridiculous and too tired to be gentle about it. Made 3, 12 in. pizzas and chicken wings and blueberry pie for the game for hubby and friends and am exhausted. The old grey mare ain't what she used to be.

I don't know who Aman is, but this creation process is a key to understanding how LDS believe that Jesus and lucifer were brothers.

Hope you were Bronco fans, your hard work would have been worth it. Not so if you were Panther fans.

mmksparbud · Feb 8, 2016

Peter1000 said:
2 creations is absolutely biblical. Let me show you.

Read Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 2:2-3
26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all hiswork which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Creation all done, right? God/Elohim created and then rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Done deal?

Now read Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This is an interesting scripture, because it is not only a second creation of man, (who was created in chapter 1 along with the female) but an entirely different person is creating man the second time.
Yahweh/Jesus is the second creator in the second chapter.

Genesis 2:5 is one of the most interesting scriptures in the bible and is the key to the whole creation. It divides the spirit creation by God/Elohim (1st) and the natural/material creation by Jesus/Yahweh (2nd).

Great subject, it is one of the steps neccesary to know that Jesus and lucifer were brothers.

Don't bother---I already tossed this thing around for what seems like months with Aman on the thread, "Adam was formed on the 3rd day"---it not biblical, it is a totally foolish interpretation of the obvious and yet one more reason to know that JS is not a prophet of God. Aman is not Mormon. It's is so glaringly obvious that Gen 2 is simply a recap of Gen. 1 with added details--it is a common form of Jewish writing. It, like everything else in your views on the bible that are so far off, is not truth and I will not engage in it again, I might as well just keep hitting my head against a brick wall. I have over the last few months come to know what the Mormon believes are and I have not the slightest inclination to believe any of this stuff. I approached all this with a great deal of prayer and hoping to find something I could relate to and there is nothing. I make a distinction with all denominations between their believes and the people themselves. I am anti-theological believes, not anti-any denomination. I love my stepdaughter, but feel awful that she believes all this. Some things may not be a salvation issue, others are much too close for comfort. I've come pretty close to just not debating about Mormonism before, and with every new thing I find, I just find one more reason to turn away.
You've heard of the frog that is boiled alive without their being aware of it? Put a frog in a pot of cold water, then you turn the heat up very slowly---he'll just stay there until the water is boiling and it's too late. This is what Mormonism does. They come in thinking things are really biblical and ok and people just misunderstand, then a little at a time the truth is slowly revealed, until they have nothing that is anywhere near to what God wrote but they can't see it. It's insidious and manipulative. They don't just come out and say all these things at the beginning. My stepdaughter had no idea what she was getting into, she thought everyone just misunderstood them. Little by little the truth came out, but in a very slow and manipulative manner. Had these things been known right at the start, she'd have turned away, but she thought they were lies made up by the "anti-Mormons"--now she has bought into them. I heard from others that she is questioning---I will continue to pray for her and feel she will come out of this in time.

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

Jane_Doe said:
The desire is to learn His traits (kindness, forgiveness, patience, etc) as His disciple. Any amount of power is not the focus, but rather a secondary happen-stance tag-a-long.

You were not reading the same posts that we read then.

What thread were you on?

It's important to follow 'replies' that are a direct answer to the post answered. That is why a forum has a reply button.

It's so others can follow a conversation progressively.

If you need help with this I might be able to find an example that explains it better so we can stay on topic.

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Don't bother---I already tossed this thing around for what seems like months with Aman on the thread, "Adam was formed on the 3rd day"---it not biblical, it is a totally foolish interpretation of the obvious and yet one more reason to know that JS is not a prophet of God. Aman is not Mormon. It's is so glaringly obvious that Gen 2 is simply a recap of Gen. 1 with added details--it is a common form of Jewish writing. It, like everything else in your views on the bible that are so far off, is not truth and I will not engage in it again, I might as well just keep hitting my head against a brick wall. I have over the last few months come to know what the Mormon believes are and I have not the slightest inclination to believe any of this stuff. I approached all this with a great deal of prayer and hoping to find something I could relate to and there is nothing. I make a distinction with all denominations between their believes and the people themselves. I am anti-theological believes, not anti-any denomination. I love my stepdaughter, but feel awful that she believes all this. Some things may not be a salvation issue, others are much too close for comfort. I've come pretty close to just not debating about Mormonism before, and with every new thing I find, I just find one more reason to turn away.
You've heard of the frog that is boiled alive without their being aware of it? Put a frog in a pot of cold water, then you turn the heat up very slowly---he'll just stay there until the water is boiling and it's too late. This is what Mormonism does. They come in thinking things are really biblical and ok and people just misunderstand, then a little at a time the truth is slowly revealed, until they have nothing that is anywhere near to what God wrote but they can't see it. It's insidious and manipulative. They don't just come out and say all these things at the beginning. My stepdaughter had no idea what she was getting into, she thought everyone just misunderstood them. Little by little the truth came out, but in a very slow and manipulative manner. Had these things been known right at the start, she'd have turned away, but she thought they were lies made up by the "anti-Mormons"--now she has bought into them. I heard from others that she is questioning---I will continue to pray for her and feel she will come out of this in time.

I like the frog in the boiling pot analogy. So true.

I will pray for your step daughter.

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

Peter1000 said:
To say the God of Jesus did not create is taking John 5:19 and ripping it out of the bible.

Jesus says he did what he saw his father do.

So it is certainly biblically feasible to say that the God of Jesus created.

Mormons equate God the Father with the Hebrew name Elohim. They equate Jesus with the Hebrew name Yahweh.
Elohim is the first and only creator God mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis. Elohim in English is translated God.

Yahweh is first mentioned in the second chapter of Genesis vs 4. Yahweh in English is translated Lord God. In the first 3 vs of chapter 2 it states that Elohim finished the heavens and the earth and then blessed the seventh day and rested from all of his work that he had made and created.

In the 4th vserse Yahweh starts another creation scenerio.

So in the first 2 chapters of Genesis, there are 2 creations.

This is confusing, unless you know that everything God the Father/Elohim created in the first chapter were spirit entities. Then in the second chapter Yahweh/Jesus was then given the power and authority of Elohim to create all the physical entities of the heavens and the earth.

Now the whole creation business makes sense and the bible is reconciled.

He is not the God of Jesus. You have to lower Jesus to the status of an angel so the BOM makes sense. Ridiculous.

Peter1000 · Feb 8, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Don't bother---I already tossed this thing around for what seems like months with Aman on the thread, "Adam was formed on the 3rd day"---it not biblical, it is a totally foolish interpretation of the obvious and yet one more reason to know that JS is not a prophet of God. Aman is not Mormon. It's is so glaringly obvious that Gen 2 is simply a recap of Gen. 1 with added details--it is a common form of Jewish writing. It, like everything else in your views on the bible that are so far off, is not truth and I will not engage in it again, I might as well just keep hitting my head against a brick wall. I have over the last few months come to know what the Mormon believes are and I have not the slightest inclination to believe any of this stuff. I approached all this with a great deal of prayer and hoping to find something I could relate to and there is nothing. I make a distinction with all denominations between their believes and the people themselves. I am anti-theological believes, not anti-any denomination. I love my stepdaughter, but feel awful that she believes all this. Some things may not be a salvation issue, others are much too close for comfort. I've come pretty close to just not debating about Mormonism before, and with every new thing I find, I just find one more reason to turn away.
You've heard of the frog that is boiled alive without their being aware of it? Put a frog in a pot of cold water, then you turn the heat up very slowly---he'll just stay there until the water is boiling and it's too late. This is what Mormonism does. They come in thinking things are really biblical and ok and people just misunderstand, then a little at a time the truth is slowly revealed, until they have nothing that is anywhere near to what God wrote but they can't see it. It's insidious and manipulative. They don't just come out and say all these things at the beginning. My stepdaughter had no idea what she was getting into, she thought everyone just misunderstood them. Little by little the truth came out, but in a very slow and manipulative manner. Had these things been known right at the start, she'd have turned away, but she thought they were lies made up by the "anti-Mormons"--now she has bought into them. I heard from others that she is questioning---I will continue to pray for her and feel she will come out of this in time.

I would agree with you if God/Elohim, or Jesus/Yahweh was the one that created in both chapters.
But it is clear that God/Elohim created in chapter 1 and Jesus/Yahweh created in chapter 2.

Why?

Peter1000 · Feb 8, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
He is not the God of Jesus. You have to lower Jesus to the status of an angel so the BOM makes sense. Ridiculous.

It has nothing to do with the BOM, it is the Bible that says it is so. Do you want me to quote bible scripture?

Peter1000 · Feb 8, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Don't bother---I already tossed this thing around for what seems like months with Aman on the thread, "Adam was formed on the 3rd day"---it not biblical, it is a totally foolish interpretation of the obvious and yet one more reason to know that JS is not a prophet of God. Aman is not Mormon. It's is so glaringly obvious that Gen 2 is simply a recap of Gen. 1 with added details--it is a common form of Jewish writing. It, like everything else in your views on the bible that are so far off, is not truth and I will not engage in it again, I might as well just keep hitting my head against a brick wall. I have over the last few months come to know what the Mormon believes are and I have not the slightest inclination to believe any of this stuff. I approached all this with a great deal of prayer and hoping to find something I could relate to and there is nothing. I make a distinction with all denominations between their believes and the people themselves. I am anti-theological believes, not anti-any denomination. I love my stepdaughter, but feel awful that she believes all this. Some things may not be a salvation issue, others are much too close for comfort. I've come pretty close to just not debating about Mormonism before, and with every new thing I find, I just find one more reason to turn away.
You've heard of the frog that is boiled alive without their being aware of it? Put a frog in a pot of cold water, then you turn the heat up very slowly---he'll just stay there until the water is boiling and it's too late. This is what Mormonism does. They come in thinking things are really biblical and ok and people just misunderstand, then a little at a time the truth is slowly revealed, until they have nothing that is anywhere near to what God wrote but they can't see it. It's insidious and manipulative. They don't just come out and say all these things at the beginning. My stepdaughter had no idea what she was getting into, she thought everyone just misunderstood them. Little by little the truth came out, but in a very slow and manipulative manner. Had these things been known right at the start, she'd have turned away, but she thought they were lies made up by the "anti-Mormons"--now she has bought into them. I heard from others that she is questioning---I will continue to pray for her and feel she will come out of this in time.

What denomination is her husband? Your son.

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

Peter1000 said:
It has nothing to do with the BOM, it is the Bible that says it is so. Do you want me to quote bible scripture?

It is not in the Bible as you make it sound. Jesus calls Him His Father.

Peter1000 · Feb 8, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
He is not the God of Jesus. You have to lower Jesus to the status of an angel so the BOM makes sense. Ridiculous.

By the way, have you ever read the BOM to know if what you wrote makes any sense?

LDS Lucifer and Jesus are not brothers!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads