That curse of sin would be the condemnation.
Is a holy and just God wrong to judge our sin?....The answer is ..No.
Upvote
0
Radical Islam
- Thread starter AtheistOne
- Start date
That curse of sin would be the condemnation.
Is a holy and just God wrong to judge our sin?....The answer is ..No.
Generally Buddhism does not believe in a personal God or a divine being, it does not have worship, praying to, or praising of a divine being (although some sects do.) It offers no form of redemption, forgiveness, no heavenly hope, or a final judgment to those practicing its system. Buddhism is a moral philosophy, an ethical way to live for the here and now of this world to gain the ultimate state. It has more in common with humanism and atheism than its original religion Hinduism it separated from. But Buddhism is not atheism just because they don’t believe in a personal God. It is more like pantheism, there is a impersonal force the void which is the ultimate.
Upvote
0
But what you said is basically that we have to choose the right religion or else. That doesn't ring true to me. I do not and never have rejected the "Word of God," I simply haven't been convinced that I have encountered it. I am also not convinced that there is such a thing as sin. Why should anything I do in this petty life be offensive to an all-powerful God? I seriously doubt that I would be punished for anything I could do in this world. If anything, I feel we are here to learn, not to be punished or rewarded.
As it happens, I am currently reading the Bible cover to cover, very gradually. I will not start with John, as the entire Bible is considered by Christians to be the word of God, and parts of it are considered to be so by Jews and Muslims as well. I attempt to approach it with as much open-mindedness as I can, but I do remain skeptical.
I leave you with this, my biggest objection to mainstream Christianity: should billions of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. be condemned to suffer just because they were not born in a Christian culture? A God that would do that is not a God I would worship.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
The Bible might say it, but that doesn't mean that I believe it. Do you believe everything you read in the Vedas?
Upvote
0
But Buddhism does offer "heavenly hope"--the hope of attaining enlightenment and entering Nirvana. Personally, I find reincarnation, with its offer of self-improvement, much more appealing than heaven. I don't want paradise; I want to live in the world and learn. It makes much more sense to me that we're here to improve ourselves than that we're here to choose the right religion or not and go to paradise forever or be tortured forever based on our petty decision.
See my post below. I didn't realize you had responded within the quote.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Well, I will leave you to your religious choices, Inquirer, for I have made clear what God has said in His immutable Word for man. You obviously are not willing to bow to God, and like the religions of man. You suppose you know all about eternal issues, Heaven, salvation of man's sinful soul, and enjoy arguing and speculating. I pray God will awaken you before it is forever too late.
Upvote
0
Rational Inquirer said: ↑
Good points, but I still disagree because:
1. One can believe in morality without knowing where it comes from, just as one can believe in the existence of the universe without knowing where it came from. Whether our conscience comes from God or not, the fact remains that we are endowed with one--however we got it.
Well I think you have your cake and you want to eat it too.
You haven't answered my question. Good and Evil is an abstract idea. Its a philosophy. Who decides what is good or evil ?
(You need answer that so I can continue)
ANSWER: I don't know if there is an objective "good vs. evil." It is religious people that are convinced about such things, and that's not me. It seems to me that what is moral is decided by consensus opinion within a culture, subject to change as the culture changes. It also seems to me that there are certain broad values that are universal among all cultures and eras, and they must be hardwired into are brains. Basic moral precepts are pretty much the same between major religions, for example.
2. Evolution provides for universal morality. If we evolved a conscience (i.e., morality), then we could have collectively evolved a conscience with similar characteristics between individuals, which is to say "universals."
No it doesn't. It deals with the survival of the fittest and the fact that where all pond scum evolved to a higher level. Where just bio chemical reactions and life is ultimately meaningless and then you die.
ANWER: Social animals have a biological need to cooperate with each other and respect each others' rights. That is the evolutionary origin of the conscience, in a nutshell. Someone who believes in a higher purpose for humanity (like me) and believes in evolution (like me) believes that evolution is the Cosmic plan. Climbing up from basic building blocks to heights we haven't even dreamed of yet is way more satisfying than just being thrown down in our current state, never to improve, in my opinion.
In any case, morality exists; that can be seen objectively. What is less clear to many is whether God exists.
there aren't objective morals on earth. different groups have different opinions
ANSWER: So?
As a final a final aside, I think the details of what are considered right and wrong are indeed subject to change and can vary from one individual, epoch or culture to another. The more fundamental aspects of morality, though, seem to be hardwired into our brains (universal).
I think your confused about what object morality really is.
To say that the Holocaust was objectively evil is to say that it was evil, even though the Nazis who carried it out thought that it was good, and it would still have been evil even if the Nazis had won World War II and succeeded in brainwashing or exterminating everyone who disagreed with them, so that everybody thought the Holocaust was good.”
ANSWER: I think most people throughout history would agree the Holocaust was immoral, because that is hardwired into us. I think the Nazis' action there was a fluke do to social brainwashing and mass hysteria.
So when I say that certain actions are objectively immoral, for example, I don’t mean “everybody knows that they’re immoral.” I mean, “they’re immoral, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks.” Another way of putting this is that binding morality depends upon the existence of God. If morality is objective, then it is binding upon everyone, even the most powerful. If it’s not objective, it’s not binding, except to the extent that the strong can enforce their will upon the weak.
For there to be external object morality there needs to be a outside the world moral law giver.
ANSWER: Okay. Then prove to me that there is an objective morality provided by God. I'm skeptical and unwilling to take your or some holy book's word for it at this point. In addition, I'm confused as to why you think the existence of a universal morality is contingent upon the existence of God. I don't see the relationship.
Good points, but I still disagree because:
1. One can believe in morality without knowing where it comes from, just as one can believe in the existence of the universe without knowing where it came from. Whether our conscience comes from God or not, the fact remains that we are endowed with one--however we got it.
Well I think you have your cake and you want to eat it too.
You haven't answered my question. Good and Evil is an abstract idea. Its a philosophy. Who decides what is good or evil ?
(You need answer that so I can continue)
ANSWER: I don't know if there is an objective "good vs. evil." It is religious people that are convinced about such things, and that's not me. It seems to me that what is moral is decided by consensus opinion within a culture, subject to change as the culture changes. It also seems to me that there are certain broad values that are universal among all cultures and eras, and they must be hardwired into are brains. Basic moral precepts are pretty much the same between major religions, for example.
2. Evolution provides for universal morality. If we evolved a conscience (i.e., morality), then we could have collectively evolved a conscience with similar characteristics between individuals, which is to say "universals."
No it doesn't. It deals with the survival of the fittest and the fact that where all pond scum evolved to a higher level. Where just bio chemical reactions and life is ultimately meaningless and then you die.
ANWER: Social animals have a biological need to cooperate with each other and respect each others' rights. That is the evolutionary origin of the conscience, in a nutshell. Someone who believes in a higher purpose for humanity (like me) and believes in evolution (like me) believes that evolution is the Cosmic plan. Climbing up from basic building blocks to heights we haven't even dreamed of yet is way more satisfying than just being thrown down in our current state, never to improve, in my opinion.
In any case, morality exists; that can be seen objectively. What is less clear to many is whether God exists.
there aren't objective morals on earth. different groups have different opinions
ANSWER: So?
As a final a final aside, I think the details of what are considered right and wrong are indeed subject to change and can vary from one individual, epoch or culture to another. The more fundamental aspects of morality, though, seem to be hardwired into our brains (universal).
I think your confused about what object morality really is.
To say that the Holocaust was objectively evil is to say that it was evil, even though the Nazis who carried it out thought that it was good, and it would still have been evil even if the Nazis had won World War II and succeeded in brainwashing or exterminating everyone who disagreed with them, so that everybody thought the Holocaust was good.”
ANSWER: I think most people throughout history would agree the Holocaust was immoral, because that is hardwired into us. I think the Nazis' action there was a fluke do to social brainwashing and mass hysteria.
So when I say that certain actions are objectively immoral, for example, I don’t mean “everybody knows that they’re immoral.” I mean, “they’re immoral, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks.” Another way of putting this is that binding morality depends upon the existence of God. If morality is objective, then it is binding upon everyone, even the most powerful. If it’s not objective, it’s not binding, except to the extent that the strong can enforce their will upon the weak.
For there to be external object morality there needs to be a outside the world moral law giver.
ANSWER: Okay. Then prove to me that there is an objective morality provided by God. I'm skeptical and unwilling to take your or some holy book's word for it at this point. In addition, I'm confused as to why you think the existence of a universal morality is contingent upon the existence of God. I don't see the relationship.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
I don't suppose that I know anything--that is why I am an agnostic. But I'm not sure anyone else knows anything either. I'm not sure we're not all speculating, but I could definitely be wrong, as I know nothing (to paraphrase Socrates).
Just to cite one example that you mentioned, how can I claim to "know all about...[the] salvation of man's sinful soul" when I don't even know if the soul exists, nor if sin exists?
In summary, I humble myself before God, if She exists. But I find it unlikely She'll punish me if I happen to pick the wrong religion--after all I'm only human, and therefore imperfect.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Like a superconducting magnet.. ROFLMAO..
But you have to admit, the entertainment value alone is off the charts...
Upvote
0
"As far as I can see" is a key phrase. By your own statement, you are unable to understand the environment with which you live. Your understanding is limited to what is written within the contents of a book. While the environment around you is dynamic, your understanding is static.
I usually don't revert to attacking statements via the initiation of another attack because its counter productive.. But I make exception in this case because its the best way to achieve clarity for the opposing argument.
Since when is the bible interpreted objectively? or as binding?
Christians hold the bible up high as a standard for morality.. Ironic, because I don't find slavery as being moral. And that's just one of many things in the Christian belief system that is ridiculous and even offensive.
And as you say once again "It looks like it to me". From my perspective, you don't even seem to understand the things you believe in, much less the reality around you.
Shall we go though your bible belief system and pick apart the the ridiculous things and see if you stand by your beliefs as objective and binding? As someone who believes in science and reason, I'd be happy to go through mine.
Upvote
0
Because of all the things Jesus said. They make sense
Jesus said
Matthew 7:11-13New International Version (NIV)
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
I'll para phrase this to make my point clearer .
Treat people the way you want to be treated this is the total of the old testament.
""The golden rule""This is an absolute law. Governments who follow this philosophy most successfully have more stable productive peaceful countries.
If you look into this you will see this principle everywhere.
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
There many many ways to go wrong than there is to go right
Upvote
0
That's an incorrect statement full of misinformation.
Galatians 5:1 ESV /
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery
1 Peter 2:16 ESV / Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
1 Timothy 5:18 ESV /
For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
“””people deserve to be paid”””
John 8:36 ESV /
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed
Luke 6:31 ESV /
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
Treat people the way you want to be treated “” Putting people into slavery is not doing this !!!!
Therefore Slavery is not a New Testament Christian principle.
(It was a Jewish old testament principle)
Paul did say slaves obey you masters because there wasn’t much hope for slaves without papers in the Roman historic period. So these types of teaching have a historical interpretation. But that is definitely outranked by the teachings I have quoted.
Upvote
0
aiki
Regular Member
It may comfort you to believe this but that doesn't make it true. In fact my situation is quite different from what you've asserted (largely from ignorance, I might add).
Interpreted? What sort of interpretation do you think is required of most of Scripture?
If the Bible is the Word of God, clearly it is binding.
Strawman.
Given how little you actually know about me, your comment above smacks of the sort of ignorant hubris common to the very dullest pseudo-intellectuals. You don't know what, in fact, I know. For most careful-thinking people, this would be cause to withhold comment and to ask questions rather than offer the sort of obnoxious and ignorant assertions that you have.
I suppose you think you're the first to throw down this gauntlet before me? Not hardly. And you won't, I'm sure, be the last. What I have discovered is that challenges like yours are, like the rest of your post, arising mostly from ignorance.
Selah.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Hi Dougangle,
Lets look at Mathew 18:25 as an example.
Let me shorten this up because you know as well as I do that I can google what the bible says about slavery and its plastered and pasted all over your new testament as well as the old. We could both fill up an entire forum thread going back and forth.
The bible is filled with versus condoning slavery.. and none that denounce it as immoral.
And as you posted yourself, a bunch of subjective interpretations.. not much objectivity there as was claimed by user name AIKI...
I just view it as the run-of-the-mill religious propaganda that spews out when such extremist folks are confronted in such a way.. Even in the face of solid logic and reasoning, the "heavy believers" will resort to misinterpreting the facts and twisting the meanings to suit an agenda. Normally I wouldn't blame someone for doing that.. but when someone comes out with claims of moral superiority, or any other kind of righteous hogwash, I always find it entertaining to just use their own logic and beliefs against them. Works every time.
I tend to have a lot more respect for the Christian population who temper the absurdity of whats in that book with a bit of common sense and reasoning. I think the greater majority of Christians tend to do that, but as with any group, there's always some bad apples that make everyone else look bad.
Lets look at Mathew 18:25 as an example.
Let me shorten this up because you know as well as I do that I can google what the bible says about slavery and its plastered and pasted all over your new testament as well as the old. We could both fill up an entire forum thread going back and forth.
The bible is filled with versus condoning slavery.. and none that denounce it as immoral.
And as you posted yourself, a bunch of subjective interpretations.. not much objectivity there as was claimed by user name AIKI...
I just view it as the run-of-the-mill religious propaganda that spews out when such extremist folks are confronted in such a way.. Even in the face of solid logic and reasoning, the "heavy believers" will resort to misinterpreting the facts and twisting the meanings to suit an agenda. Normally I wouldn't blame someone for doing that.. but when someone comes out with claims of moral superiority, or any other kind of righteous hogwash, I always find it entertaining to just use their own logic and beliefs against them. Works every time.
I tend to have a lot more respect for the Christian population who temper the absurdity of whats in that book with a bit of common sense and reasoning. I think the greater majority of Christians tend to do that, but as with any group, there's always some bad apples that make everyone else look bad.
Upvote
0
Matthew 18:25
And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Leviticus 25:44-46
‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
I could quote this stuff through google all day long.. Go ahead and explain that objectively.
The fact is, the bible condones slavery because it was acceptable at the time.. it was a normal part of life. If consuming other humans (cannibalism) was a normal part of life, it would have condoned that too. You can try to tap dance around it all day long and you're not going to change the objective meaning of the phrases within the bible (either version) as they pertain to the enslavement of humans.
Times change.. Evolution causes biological changes as well as intellectual changes, and as we learn more about the environment (universe) we live in, we begin to realize that the religious idea of moral behavior will not serve us very well in the future.
When your type of religious moral compass ruled our society, they burned people alive, trampled across lands and killed the unbelievers, and caused suffering on a level rivaled only by disease. All the while, holding up your book to justify their actions.
Most of our society today is governed by the best reasoning and logic we can muster. We've created laws to free people of the religious interpretation of morality and we've prospered because of it.
But if you'd like to travel back in time to get a taste of that religiously governed moral compass, please, by all means, go buy a ticket to the middle eastern countries and see how it works out for you.
I can understand people who use religion to provide comfort in the face of death or trauma, but the fact that anyone needs a book to tell the difference between right and wrong is a bit perplexing to me.. . But I guess it is what it is and if that's what they need then by all means.. I don't have any problem with it.. that is until you start telling others that they're inferior in some way because they don't follow your book.
Good thing we have laws based on logic and reasoning to regulate those kinds of thought processes.
Upvote
0
aiki
Regular Member
Yeah, as I suspected: bias, ignorance, and a whole lot of Strawman argument. Pretty typical stuff. Should I disabuse you of all of your misconceptions and help you limit your ignorance? No, I don't think so. Nothing in what and how you've posted suggests that would be productive. Besides, there are many, many sites you could go to that would easily deflate your contentions and strawman criticisms. Here are a few:
www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org
www.reasons.org
www.rzim.org
Or you might try reading a few books:
Warranted Christian Belief by Dr. Alvin Plantinga
The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology - ed. Dr. W.L. Craig and J.P. Moreland
Scaling the Secular City by J.P. Moreland
Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God by Paul Copan
Selah.
www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org
www.reasons.org
www.rzim.org
Or you might try reading a few books:
Warranted Christian Belief by Dr. Alvin Plantinga
The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology - ed. Dr. W.L. Craig and J.P. Moreland
Scaling the Secular City by J.P. Moreland
Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God by Paul Copan
Selah.
Upvote
0
Here are a few.. just climb onto my bandwagon!
You can't justify your own statements so you post links to other sites that fall under the same flawed thought processes to explain it?
I actually thought, from your previous statement, that it was going to be a much more interesting response.
Its a good thing that reasonable minds have already prevailed.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Upvote
0
Similar threads
- Locked
