The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

-57 · Feb 8, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
I said this:
"The point is, God has provided everything necessary so that no human being has any excuse.

Do you realize that if God were the One who caused man to believe, then those who don't believe cannot be held responsible for not believing?"

Wrong. Rom 1 is clear. Paul explained it here:
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. v.20

v.21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

iow, "even though they KNEW God, meaning they knew He existed (v.19-20), they didn't honor Him or give thanks to Him. That is why they became futile.

Unlike Cornelius (Acts 10) who KNEW God existed, but did honor Him and give thanks to Him. And God responded by providing the gospel to him.

I've already told you it doesn't matter why not. They have no excuse for not believing. God gave them everything they needed, but they refused anyway.

The problem with your view is that it cannot be supported from Scripture; that God regenerates in order for people to believe. Or that God chooses who will believe.

And again, if your view were correct, then man cannot be held accountable if God is the One deciding who will believe. I really don't understand how that isn't clear to you.

You continue to miss my point and try to force your point.
The point: If you have this so-called free-will concerning salvation....then you base your choice of rejection or acceptance upon something. I would say for the most part your life experiences. What you've learned, read, experienced, shared, etc..

Later a man comes up to you, explains the Gospel and says...will you choose Christ? You then scoop together all what you've learned, read, experienced, shared, etc....and make a choice. That's what you're teaching. Your choice is made upon your life which for the most part is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. Random. Life happens.

....and you think Gods bases your eternity on your ability to correctly filter life and make the "right" choice? That someone just so happens to come along and explain Jesus to you? I don't think it works that way.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 8, 2016

iron2iron said: ↑
Rev 3:20 Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock, they know there is a God, but act like they don't hear the knocking. That is why there will be no one with an excuse on Judgment Day.

-57 said:
Could be true...but the question is...why do they not hear the knocking?

The verse is in a message to a church. Believers. It's about fellowship, not relationship.

Is it because they are spiritually dead like Eph tells us and they can't hear the knocking?

Where does Ephesians tell us that the spiritually dead cannot hear?

Further, Jesus put that to rest in John 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Notice the order: 'dead will hear' and "those who hear (the dead) will live".

The dead can most definitely hear.

When the Bible speaks of people not hearing, it is because they have stopped their ears from hearing. It's a choice.

Acts 28:27 - For the heart of this people has become dull, And with their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes; Otherwise they might see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.”’

The reason they don't see and hear is because of their own choice not to.

Just like any child in a classroom who isn't paying attention. They're not hearing.

Isa 42:20 - You have seen many things, but have paid no attention; your ears are open, but you hear nothing.”

FreeGrace2 · Feb 8, 2016

iron2iron said: ↑
So do you believe there will be people in Heaven who have never heard the name of Christ?

-57 said:
Is there any biblical reason why not?

Of course there is:

Rom 10:13-15
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

One must hear in order to believe. And no one is saved apart from believing.

-57 · Feb 8, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
iron2iron said: ↑
Rev 3:20 Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock, they know there is a God, but act like they don't hear the knocking. That is why there will be no one with an excuse on Judgment Day.

The verse is in a message to a church. Believers. It's about fellowship, not relationship.

Where does Ephesians tell us that the spiritually dead cannot hear?

Further, Jesus put that to rest in John 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Notice the order: 'dead will hear' and "those who hear (the dead) will live".

The dead can most definitely hear.

When the Bible speaks of people not hearing, it is because they have stopped their ears from hearing. It's a choice.

Acts 28:27 - For the heart of this people has become dull, And with their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes; Otherwise they might see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.”’

The reason they don't see and hear is because of their own choice not to.

Just like any child in a classroom who isn't paying attention. They're not hearing.

Isa 42:20 - You have seen many things, but have paid no attention; your ears are open, but you hear nothing.”

Free Grace...you shot yourself in the foot when you posted:
Where does Ephesians tell us that the spiritually dead cannot hear?

Further, Jesus put that to rest in John 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

..an hour is coming when the dead will hear...this implies that they can't hear.
Secondly it also mentions those that will not hear and live.
Unless God quickens you...you can't hear. Your spiritually dead.

-57 · Feb 8, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
iron2iron said: ↑
So do you believe there will be people in Heaven who have never heard the name of Christ?

Of course there is:

Rom 10:13-15
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

One must hear in order to believe. And no one is saved apart from believing.

...and you can't believe unless God allows you to believe. God calls you...you don't call God.

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

-57 said:
You continue to miss my point and try to force your point.
The point: If you have this so-called free-will concerning salvation....then you base your choice of rejection or acceptance upon something. I would say for the most part your life experiences. What you've learned, read, experienced, shared, etc..

Later a man comes up to you, explains the Gospel and says...will you choose Christ? You then scoop together all what you've learned, read, experienced, shared, etc....and make a choice. That's what you're teaching. Your choice is made upon your life which for the most part is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. Random. Life happens.

....and you think Gods bases your eternity on your ability to correctly filter life and make the "right" choice? That someone just so happens to come along and explain Jesus to you? I don't think it works that way.

Actually we know from the Word of God that faith comes by hearing the Word of God and the gospel.

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

That is why we are to spread the gospel and the Word of God.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 8, 2016

-57 said:
The point: If you have this so-called free-will concerning salvation....then you base your choice of rejection or acceptance upon something.

That's how it is.

I would say for the most part your life experiences. What you've learned, read, experienced, shared, etc..

So, you're going to ignore what the Scripture says about the fact that God has placed everyone WHEN and WHERE He did so that they might seek Him. And that God has revealed His existence and divine power to everyone so that everyone is without excuse, huh?

However, life experiences are included in both of my points. Which are supported in Scripture.

Later a man comes up to you, explains the Gospel and says...will you choose Christ? You then scoop together all what you've learned, read, experienced, shared, etc....and make a choice. That's what you're teaching. Your choice is made upon your life which for the most part is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. Random. Life happens.

Really? Random, you say. So God has no control? Well, I've already debunked that notion. Acts 17:25,26 teaches that God has placed everyone WHEN and WHERE He did so that they might seek Him. So much for your 'randomness' notions.

Why does the idea of man having the freedom to choose whether to believe God's words or not bother you?

....and you think Gods bases your eternity on your ability to correctly filter life and make the "right" choice?

No, God bases our eternity on whether we will acknowledge Him and believe what He says. And He's given us EVERYTHING we need in order to KNOW that He exists and to trust what He says.

That someone just so happens to come along and explain Jesus to you? I don't think it works that way.

Well, you've a Calvinist, after all. So I understand why you don't think so.

But, no matter. That is exactly how it works.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 8, 2016

-57 said:
...and you can't believe unless God allows you to believe.

Please cite a verse to support your notion. God does "grant" that we believe. So show me any verse that teaches that God didn't permit someone to believe.

God calls you...you don't call God.

I never said He did. btw, what does the Greek word translated "call" mean. I'd like your answer.

sdowney717 · Feb 8, 2016

-57 said:
Free Grace...you shot yourself in the foot when you posted:
Where does Ephesians tell us that the spiritually dead cannot hear?

Further, Jesus put that to rest in John 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

..an hour is coming when the dead will hear...this implies that they can't hear.
Secondly it also mentions those that will not hear and live.
Unless God quickens you...you can't hear. Your spiritually dead.

John 5 can also be thought of as Romans 10

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So faith comes by hearing God speak to you. At some point, God in Christ speaks to your dead self making you live and you hear Him speak.
Like Lazarus, Jesus spoke to the dead man and he comes out from the tomb alive.
John 11
43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!”
44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with grave clothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

sdowney717 said:
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So faith comes by hearing God speak to you. At some point, God in Christ speaks to your dead self making you live and you hear Him speak.

I think that this is a misrepresentation.

You are adding on to what the verse says. God speaks to us through His Word and through the gospel message. But to say that God speaks to us and that we hear Him speak misrepresents what the Word says.

-57 · Feb 8, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
That's how it is.

So, you're going to ignore what the Scripture says about the fact that God has placed everyone WHEN and WHERE He did so that they might seek Him. And that God has revealed His existence and divine power to everyone so that everyone is without excuse, huh?

However, life experiences are included in both of my points. Which are supported in Scripture.

Really? Random, you say. So God has no control? Well, I've already debunked that notion. Acts 17:25,26 teaches that God has placed everyone WHEN and WHERE He did so that they might seek Him. So much for your 'randomness' notions.

Why does the idea of man having the freedom to choose whether to believe God's words or not bother you?

No, God bases our eternity on whether we will acknowledge Him and believe what He says. And He's given us EVERYTHING we need in order to KNOW that He exists and to trust what He says.

Well, you've a Calvinist, after all. So I understand why you don't think so.

But, no matter. That is exactly how it works.

I'm glad to see you're finally putting God into the equation....but despite that, God pointing you in the right direction...you with your so-called free-will still base the decision upon what you think which is driven by lifes variables. Your theology...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You still haven't answered why the horse won't drink.

Well, you're an Armenian, after all. So I understand why you don't think so.

-57 · Feb 8, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
Please cite a verse to support your notion. God does "grant" that we believe. So show me any verse that teaches that God didn't permit someone to believe.

I never said He did. btw, what does the Greek word translated "call" mean. I'd like your answer.

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

God doesn't call everyone....in fact the decision is made prior to you being born.

Romans 9:11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls...

Romans 9 :16So then it does not depend on the man who wills (free will) or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy

....because concerning salvation you have no free-will...do you claim it makes God unjust?

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

Can someone please answer my replies?

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

-57 said:
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

God doesn't call everyone....in fact the decision is made prior to you being born.

Romans 9:11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls...

Romans 9 :16So then it does not depend on the man who wills (free will) or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy

....because concerning salvation you have no free-will...do you claim it makes God unjust?

God is OMNIPRESENT, OMNISCIENCE.

God knows beginning from the end, so of course God knows. But that does not mean that He changes or alters our free will.

God is not held to time. Time is from our dimension. God is not human or held to time as in things happening in a certain order of things. as we see them.

sdowney717 · Feb 8, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
I think that this is a misrepresentation.

You are adding on to what the verse says. God speaks to us through His Word and through the gospel message. But to say that God speaks to us and that we hear Him speak misrepresents what the Word says.

Not at all.
As Jesus says also

Matthew 4:4New King James Version (NKJV)
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

And Jesus says
John 8:47
He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

faither · Feb 8, 2016

For anyone interested, I've started a thread in "Soteriology". It's called The secrets of Faith and the narrow path. I did this to highlight important points about the once saved portion of the osas equation and debate.

thanks

ToBeLoved · Feb 8, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Not at all.
As Jesus says also

Matthew 4:4New King James Version (NKJV)
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

And Jesus says
John 8:47
He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

No. Because "He who is of God" is someone that is already saved. The verse in Matthew is also for the Child of God, not for those who have not come to God.

So, using the Word out of context does not make it truth..

Those who do not hear, do not hear or understand the spiritual things of God's Word, but that does not mean that they do not hear the gospel and that Christ is the Savior who saves man from their sin. They do not have the Holy Spirit to understand the things of the spirit.

sdowney717 · Feb 8, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
No. Because "He who is of God" is someone that is already saved. The verse in Matthew is also for the Child of God, not for those who have not come to God.

So, using the Word out of context does not make it truth..

Those who do not hear, do not hear or understand the spiritual things of God's Word, but that does not mean that they do not hear the gospel and that Christ is the Savior who saves man from their sin. They do not have the Holy Spirit to understand the things of the spirit.

Those who are of God hear God's words.
They do have the Holy Spirit teaching them and therefore they come to Christ. Think about even a little, to be taught means they must be hearing God! What school teacher can teach when the student refuses to hear the teacher.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Obviously those who do not hear are not of God. But those who are being taught are of God, and they then come to Christ. So they are being taught by God about salvation in Christ before they are saved., since this scripture is clearly teaching about why someone comes to Christ at all.

I just do not understand how some people are so stubborn about these things, except that when confronted with the truth, they refuse to believe so about the ways of God, because they do not want to believe the truth about the scriptures, because that truth is not what they think God should be doing. So then they attack the messenger who is relaying the message from God. So do most all mankind refuse those whom God has sent to them, they refuse to believe what God says to them and that is proven throughout scripture from the earliest prophets of God and nothing has changed since then. To hear also implies to harken and to be obedient to the message.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 8, 2016

sdowney717 said:
John 5 can also be thought of as Romans 10

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So faith comes by hearing God speak to you. At some point, God in Christ speaks to your dead self making you live and you hear Him speak.

Please quit twisting Scripture. Jesus was extremely clear about the DEAD hearing and THEN living. Why are you so against what Jesus taught?

Like Lazarus, Jesus spoke to the dead man and he comes out from the tomb alive.

There is no comparison between raising a dead person and regenerating a spiritually dead person.

The Calvinist fascination with Lazarus is misplaced. Lazarus was not a regeneration, but a resuscitation. Not to be compared with regeneration.

In fact, Lazarus was a saved person. So Jesus didn't re-regenerate him. That is silly.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 8, 2016

-57 said:
I'm glad to see you're finally putting God into the equation

Don't be silly. He has always been in my equations. But why haven't you noticed before?

....but despite that, God pointing you in the right direction...you with your so-called free-will still base the decision upon what you think which is driven by lifes variables. Your theology...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You still haven't answered why the horse won't drink.

The horse isn't thirsty.

Well, you're an Armenian, after all. So I understand why you don't think so.

Nonsense. Arminians have just as many errors as do the Calvinists. Just in different areas.

My view of eternal security is no doubt even stronger than the Calvinsts.

btw, I wasn't born in, nor am I from the country of Armenia, as you wrongly accuse. You need to know the difference between Armenians and Arminians. The first is a county and the second is an errant theology. Like Calvinism.

The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

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