The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

Marvin Knox

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With respect, I just think you confused being saved with maturing in your faith.
Even lost sheep are still sheep. They do not morph into goats.
OSAS = once a sheep, always a sheep. lol
Somewhere along the line you must have got the idea that I do not believe in eternal security (OSAS). Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I have always believed in OSAS. All of my posts have been from that point of view. You must be reading them wrong.:)
 
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Rick Otto

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Somewhere along the line you must have got the idea that I do not believe in eternal security (OSAS). Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I have always believed in OSAS. All of my posts have been from that point of view. You must be reading them wrong.:)
Thank you. I will re-read.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Marvin Knox said:
"What might clarify things (and save a whole lot of time) would be if you just tell everyone in plain every day words what faith is."

OK! In a nutshell, faith is doing what God tells you to do. Even if you don't trust Him or believe (give mental consent) Him. The word believe means doing not thinking. Faith is a noun, its what God gives you, it is a commandment. If you obey that commandment means you believe. Please tell me that helps.
It's a bit of a convoluted response. But it helps a little.

Faith is not doing what God tells you to do. It will result in doing what God tells you to do. But it is not doing what God tells you to do.

Faith is not a commandment. It will illicit a positive response to a commandment from God. But it is not a commandment.

True faith will always produce works. Everyone believes that because that's what the Word of God says.

The possession of faith is the proof that you truly believe. The works following are the proof that you have that faith.

Perhaps this may seem like straining at a gnat. But I don't think so.

Answering the following question will tell me whether I have made the distinctions above for no reason or if I am onto something a bit different concerning your particular view of salvation - as I think I may be.

Do you agree that there is a particular initial time in the process of salvation when we pass from death to life and will never again come into condemnation because we are evermore seated with Christ in glory as part of His body and sealed with His Holy Spirit forever?
 
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iron2iron

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Marvin Knox said:
"What might clarify things (and save a whole lot of time) would be if you just tell everyone in plain every day words what faith is."


It's a bit of a convoluted response. But it helps a little.

Faith is not doing what God tells you to do. It will result in doing what God tells you to do. But it is not doing what God tells you to do.

Faith is not a commandment. It will illicit a positive response to a commandment from God. But it is not a commandment.

True faith will always produce works. Everyone believes that because that's what the Word of God says.

The possession of faith is the proof that you truly believe. The works following are the proof that you have that faith.

Perhaps this may seem like straining at a gnat. But I don't think so.

Answering the following question will tell me whether I have made the distinctions above for no reason or if I am onto something a bit different concerning your particular view of salvation - as I think I may be.

Do you agree that there is a particular initial time in the process of salvation when we pass from death to life and will never again come into condemnation because we are evermore seated with Christ in glory as part of His body and sealed with His Holy Spirit forever?

Yes I do. I understand now where I have confused you.

Saving faith is not the same as faith. The ten lepers, when they obeyed Christ they were all healed, but only one did something different than the others.

The one came back, glorified God, and gave him thanks. Why? Because his heart was soft.

In Jeremiah 4:3-4 God commands us to prepare our hearts, He say's circumcise your heart and take away the foreskin.

The other nine leper's hearts were hard, they were all healed but they were not saved, because they did not get their hearts right, which God commands us to do.

Remember what Jesus said about the sower sowing seeds, only the seeds that fell on good ground bared fruit.

This is a good place to talk about once saved always saved.

How can you get uncircumcised once you have been circumcised? Can you sew dead skin back on? Don't think so.

All through out the Bible salvation is compared to circumcision of the heart.

God told Abraham to circumcise everyone in his household, and they all became Jews. It was one thing you could not hide and it was something you could not lose.

If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, the old (foreskin of the heart) has passed away and the new has come.

Paul said a Jew is not one outwardly but inwardly, circumcision is of the heart.

It's all about the heart, if your heart is soft the seed of the Word can penetrate it and you will bare fruit, you will be saved.

Because the one lepers heart was right, the Word (seed) of Holy Spirit could penetrate his heart, and he obeyed from the heart the Holy Spirit and was saved. Romans 6:17

By obedience to the Word of God all ten lepers were healed, because they all obeyed Jesus, but only one obeyed from the heart the Holy Spirit, and he was the only one was made whole. (saved)

Faith cured all ten lepers, but that was not saving faith. Saving faith happens in the heart. I hate to break this to the Calvinist but God does not force you to get your heart right, He persuades you. Faith means to persuade you.

Faith is a commandment, but it's not a forced commandment, it's a persuasion.

If faith is not a commandment, then why did Peter tell Jesus to command him to come to Him on the water. Because the disciples knew they had to have a commandment before they could do any miraculous thing.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. It's a commandment.

Does that help? It's ok, it took my pastor two and a half years before he realized I was not insane, but when he finally got it, it changed his life.
 
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iron2iron

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This is one of the most yanked out of context and misunderstood verses in the Bible. This was written to a church, not for a "revival" meeting. This is a letter to a church. Read it again, for the first time, see who it's addressed to and see how it ends.

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

No, its not the bad that you have done that will keep you out of Heaven, it's the good you refuse to do. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is a sin. No, Martin Luther didn't like the Book of James either.

The difference between faith and works is, works is doing what you think is right, which all of the religions of the world do, and faith is doing what God say's is right. If I'm a liberal, please show me where I'm telling lies. Jesus told the rich young ruler what to do to be saved, but he refused. Now he said he observed all the commandments, but the Ten Commandments were not the problem.

Jesus looked at his heart and told him what the problem was. Are you calling Jesus a liar? Jesus told him go, sell, and give and you will have treasure in Heaven. How could he have treasure in Heaven if he could not go to heaven? Jesus did not tell him, "sorry son, but your not one of the elect", you know, a Calvinist, oh that's right, he hasn't been born yet, so eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow your going to hell.

No, Jesus told him what he needed to do to get to Heaven, but he refused to do what was right. I'm I misquoting this to?
 
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iron2iron

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No I do not.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
If you do not think there will be people in Heaven that have never heard of the name Jesus, then why did Paul write in Romans 2:14... For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these not having the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another?

Well, who wrote the law on their hearts? Why did someone not just give them a Bible? Could it have been the Holy Spirit who wrote it? Rev 7:9 say's there will be people from every tribe and tongues and nation in Heaven.

There will be two Pygmies that never saw a white man let alone heard of Jesus, grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other shall be left. Why? Because one obeyed that Law written on his heart. We all have it written on our hearts, but the ones that obey will be the ones that go to heaven. Read Romans 6:17 It's all about the heart!
 
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Rick Otto

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If you do not think there will be people in Heaven that have never heard of the name Jesus, then why did Paul write in Romans 2:14... For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these not having the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another?

Well, who wrote the law on their hearts? Why did someone not just give them a Bible? Could it have been the Holy Spirit who wrote it? Rev 7:9 say's there will be people from every tribe and tongues and nation in Heaven.

There will be two Pygmies that never saw a white man let alone heard of Jesus, grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other shall be left. Why? Because one obeyed that Law written on his heart. We all have it written on our hearts, but the ones that obey will be the ones that go to heaven. Read Romans 6:17 It's all about the heart!
Thank you. Also this:
[1] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
[2] Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
[3] There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
[4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
 
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Extraneous

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If you do not think there will be people in Heaven that have never heard of the name Jesus, then why did Paul write in Romans 2:14... For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these not having the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another?

Well, who wrote the law on their hearts? Why did someone not just give them a Bible? Could it have been the Holy Spirit who wrote it? Rev 7:9 say's there will be people from every tribe and tongues and nation in Heaven.

There will be two Pygmies that never saw a white man let alone heard of Jesus, grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other shall be left. Why? Because one obeyed that Law written on his heart. We all have it written on our hearts, but the ones that obey will be the ones that go to heaven. Read Romans 6:17 It's all about the heart!

Gentiles don't have the law but Paul does mention "his" gospel. Paul's intent seems unclear.
 
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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Wow. Well, this is telling!!

There is no verse in the Bible that tells one to pray any kind of prayer (all prayers are by sinners, naturally), or by asking Jesus for forgiveness or to save you. The Bible many times tells us to place our full trust in Jesus to save us.

Unless one trusts in the work of Christ alone for salvation, one is not saved.



Correct. Nothing here about praying, or asking Jesus for forgiveness.

To believe on His name is to place full trust and faith in Him to save you.

But you have made clear your views that one must achieve sinless perfection in order to be saved. So your entire theology is mixed up and unbiblical.​


What, exactly, is the gospel message to be believed?
The following link is for the benefit of others who are interested in verses that talk about the Sinner's Prayer.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/biblical-evidence-or-verses-for-the-sinners-prayer.7919256/

...
 
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iron2iron

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Because they simply do not want to see Him. Just as Rom 1 explains.


Their own lack of interest.

[QUTOE] Was it a college professor? Is it sin? Is it their unrighteousness?
A lot of things.


That's correct. But unless one recognizes the existence of God as Creator, there is no issue of believing the gospel message. Because Jesus is God and one must believe that He is as part of saving faith (Jn 20:31).

If one only thinks that Jesus was a really good guy, a great teacher, etc, that belief won't save them.

The point is, God has provided everything necessary so that no human being has any excuse.

Do you realize that if God were the One who caused man to believe, then those who don't believe cannot be held responsible for not believing?[/QUOTE]
With respect, I just think you confused being saved with maturing in your faith.
Even lost sheep are still sheep. They do not morph into goats.
OSAS = once a sheep, always a sheep. lol
Rick I agree with you, But there is only saved sheep and lost goats! Lol You could be a baby sheep, a tween sheep, a teenager sheep, a midlife crisis sheep (with a new Corvette) or a sheep who needs some Depends, but all is better than an old goat.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"In that post, I challenged your view of grace. And all you could come up with was a cat yawning."

OK, so you're shocked to know what grace is and means? That figures.

Those with your views don't undestand grace at all. If God demands attaining sinless perfection to be saved, there's no grace in that.
Yep! And that would also make the Apostle John a liar, cause He said If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8
How would my comment "make John a liar"? The verse says that no one has no sin. iow, we all have sin.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Do you realize that if God were the One who caused man to believe, then those who don't believe cannot be held responsible for not believing?"
No, that is not true. On the OT people who sinned in ignorance God holds accountable, they had to offer sacrifice.
Your comment doesn't address my comment. I wasn't talking about sinning, but about believing and whether God is the cause of man believing.

And how about any worldwide who has never heard of Christ, God still holds them to account for not believing, they die in their sins.
OK, how about them? I gave the reasons WHY everyone is accountable to God. He created them and placed them WHEN and WHERE He did so that they would seek Him, per Acts 17:25,26. And God has revealed Himself to everyone, per Rom 1:19,20, so that no one has any excuse for not seeking Him.

Now, for those who do respond to God's revelation, do you really think God will ignore that response? Of course not.
 
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-57

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Because they simply do not want to see Him. Just as Rom 1 explains.


Their own lack of interest.

[QUTOE] Was it a college professor? Is it sin? Is it their unrighteousness?
A lot of things.


That's correct. But unless one recognizes the existence of God as Creator, there is no issue of believing the gospel message. Because Jesus is God and one must believe that He is as part of saving faith (Jn 20:31).

If one only thinks that Jesus was a really good guy, a great teacher, etc, that belief won't save them.

The point is, God has provided everything necessary so that no human being has any excuse.

Do you realize that if God were the One who caused man to believe, then those who don't believe cannot be held responsible for not believing?[/QUOTE]

I'm finding your reply weak. Perhaps you don't have the time to explain yourself...I get that way sometimes.
Currently you still seem to be dodging around the issue.
In Romans 1 there's a reason for why they "exchange the truth for a lie". They may not even know their making the exchange. It's man nature to make the exchange.

The question remains in a slightly different form now...WHY do they not believe if God gives them everything they need to make the decesion WITH OUT the Holy Spirit?
 
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FreeGrace2

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If you do not think there will be people in Heaven that have never heard of the name Jesus, then why did Paul write in Romans 2:14... For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these not having the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another?

Well, who wrote the law on their hearts? Why did someone not just give them a Bible? Could it have been the Holy Spirit who wrote it? Rev 7:9 say's there will be people from every tribe and tongues and nation in Heaven.

There will be two Pygmies that never saw a white man let alone heard of Jesus, grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other shall be left. Why? Because one obeyed that Law written on his heart. We all have it written on our hearts, but the ones that obey will be the ones that go to heaven. Read Romans 6:17 It's all about the heart!
So if obeying the Law gets one to heaven, then why did Jesus Christ die for our sins?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"The point is, God has provided everything necessary so that no human being has any excuse.

Do you realize that if God were the One who caused man to believe, then those who don't believe cannot be held responsible for not believing?"
I'm finding your reply weak. Perhaps you don't have the time to explain yourself...I get that way sometimes.
Currently you still seem to be dodging around the issue.
In Romans 1 there's a reason for why they "exchange the truth for a lie". They may not even know their making the exchange. It's man nature to make the exchange.
Wrong. Rom 1 is clear. Paul explained it here:
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. v.20

v.21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

iow, "even though they KNEW God, meaning they knew He existed (v.19-20), they didn't honor Him or give thanks to Him. That is why they became futile.

Unlike Cornelius (Acts 10) who KNEW God existed, but did honor Him and give thanks to Him. And God responded by providing the gospel to him.

The question remains in a slightly different form now...WHY do they not believe if God gives them everything they need to make the decesion WITH OUT the Holy Spirit?
I've already told you it doesn't matter why not. They have no excuse for not believing. God gave them everything they needed, but they refused anyway.

The problem with your view is that it cannot be supported from Scripture; that God regenerates in order for people to believe. Or that God chooses who will believe.

And again, if your view were correct, then man cannot be held accountable if God is the One deciding who will believe. I really don't understand how that isn't clear to you.
 
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-57

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Rev 3:20 Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock, they know there is a God, but act like they don't hear the knocking. That is why there will be no one with an excuse on Judgment Day.

Could be true...but the question is...why do they not hear the knocking? Is it because they are spiritually dead like Eph tells us and they can't hear the knocking?
 
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No, its not the bad that you have done that will keep you out of Heaven, it's the good you refuse to do. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is a sin. No, Martin Luther didn't like the Book of James either.

The difference between faith and works is, works is doing what you think is right, which all of the religions of the world do, and faith is doing what God say's is right. If I'm a liberal, please show me where I'm telling lies. Jesus told the rich young ruler what to do to be saved, but he refused. Now he said he observed all the commandments, but the Ten Commandments were not the problem.

Jesus looked at his heart and told him what the problem was. Are you calling Jesus a liar? Jesus told him go, sell, and give and you will have treasure in Heaven. How could he have treasure in Heaven if he could not go to heaven? Jesus did not tell him, "sorry son, but your not one of the elect", you know, a Calvinist, oh that's right, he hasn't been born yet, so eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow your going to hell.

No, Jesus told him what he needed to do to get to Heaven, but he refused to do what was right. I'm I misquoting this to?
Faith has always been to be had in conjunction with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit helps to soften hard hearts and lead us to the path of righteousness.

Faith is not a road that we go down doing what we think is right or what we think God expects of us.

Faith is walking WITH God in relationship and over time for that relationship and our faith to be strengthened. Our faith grows. It is not on auto-pilot that comes from us, except for our initial salvation when we are given the Holy Spirit.
 
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sdowney717

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No, its not the bad that you have done that will keep you out of Heaven, it's the good you refuse to do. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is a sin. No, Martin Luther didn't like the Book of James either.

The difference between faith and works is, works is doing what you think is right, which all of the religions of the world do, and faith is doing what God say's is right. If I'm a liberal, please show me where I'm telling lies. Jesus told the rich young ruler what to do to be saved, but he refused. Now he said he observed all the commandments, but the Ten Commandments were not the problem.

Jesus looked at his heart and told him what the problem was. Are you calling Jesus a liar? Jesus told him go, sell, and give and you will have treasure in Heaven. How could he have treasure in Heaven if he could not go to heaven? Jesus did not tell him, "sorry son, but your not one of the elect", you know, a Calvinist, oh that's right, he hasn't been born yet, so eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow your going to hell.

No, Jesus told him what he needed to do to get to Heaven, but he refused to do what was right. I'm I misquoting this to?

He who has the Son has life. He who believes in Christ has life.
About he who does not?
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

You're presuming on scripture your own understanding about the law written on gentiles hearts. No flesh is justified by the Law of God, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 2
v12 gentiles are a, jews are b.

a. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law,
b. and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

THEIR THOUGHTS, notice it says their thoughts accuse or they excuse themselves to God for their actions, this is no justification.
BUT, then it says God will judge them by the gospel of Christ, not by their thoughts.
 
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