Should Christians refuse life-saving medical treatment?

Should Christians refuse life saving medical treatment?


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Strong in Him

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What??! You can't be serious! :eek:

Sadly, I think he is.
But thankfully Scripture doesn't say that the lack of illnesses decide whether or not we are children of God. It is the Holy Spirit who assures us of this, not anything that may happen to, and in, our temporal bodies.
 
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Wgw

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Sadly, I think he is.
But thankfully Scripture doesn't say that the lack of illnesses decide whether or not we are children of God. It is the Holy Spirit who assures us of this, not anything that may happen to, and in, our temporal bodies.

Our temporal bodies will be raised incorruptible, refardless of what happened to them.
 
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Strong in Him

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Our temporal bodies will be raised incorruptible, refardless of what happened to them.

Exactly. :oldthumbsup:
And having suffered/died from an illness is no indication that our spiritual lives were lacking in some way.
 
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Wgw

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Exactly. :oldthumbsup:
And having suffered/died from an illness is no indication that our spiritual lives were lacking in some way.

Indeed, the very idea is unscriptural, innthat every death recorded in scripture is due either to traumatic injury or an illness. Being struck down by God, for example, pr being swallowed up in a crevasse.
 
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Fireinfolding

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I think if there was a long line for life saving medical treatment in one of the poorer countries and you lived there (but really wanted to die) but wanted to appear to be a generous soul (instead of suicidal) just keep offering other folks in the same condition your spot (ahead of them) in that line.

Some folks cant wait to depart this life, not because they feel suicidal but because they might be torn about remaining and have the choice set before them.

Other people (like the uninsured) might not want to live to get the bill and live the rest of their lives just to pay it.

Various reasons I suppose.
 
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Wgw

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I think if there was a long line for life saving medical treatment in one of the poorer countries and you lived there (but really wanted to die) but wanted to appear to be a generous soul (instead of suicidal) just keep offering other folks in the same condition your spot (ahead of them) in that line.

Some folks cant wait to depart this life, not because they feel suicidal but because they might be torn about remaining and have the choice set before them.

Other people (like the uninsured) might not want to live to get the bill and live the rest of their lives just to pay it.

Various reasons I suppose.

This seems reasonable.
 
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Fireinfolding

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This seems reasonable.

It just doesnt make much sense to save your life at all costs. I have a living will myself to remove the burden of that decision from off of those who might feel that way and go against my wishes (namely my own family) because I dont share in that mentality. Im pretty much like "unplug everything" and let me fly (because I am so outta here!). It's certainly not an intentional suicidal thing here but in desire to depart (if given that opportunity) to remove all hands from me but Gods (and His will for me). And because we know that this life isnt all there is to our lives this is a drop in the bucket to eternity with our Father. And some desire to depart from this life knowing just this.

Theres a man who works at our grocery store and I talk to him when I shop, I met his wife, they live in a trailor and she works three jobs (just to make enough for her meds each month). I dont know about anyone else, but having to live in a box in order to free up my resources (which must come of three jobs) where I work myself into the ground just to inject myself (so I can live another day) to work insanely long hours once again just so I can wake up to inject myself (and just wash rinse and repeat that until I die?) Then to think resigning oneself to that other choice (given the dreaded other option) a type of suicide wish could be a bit harsh. But I'll tell you what living after that first choice would probably drive me to the brink of the latter. Hopefully God would have mercy.

I have an old friend that survived cancer (as they call it) not once, not twice but three times, lost her hair and everything (it grew back each time). She was finally cancer free (thanks to chemo) but there is always a risk involved with that, and well, she had a stroke at 40 and long story short that was a decade ago. Her elderly parents are in their 70's and are trying the best they can to care for her themselves. They ended up selling their home to pull resources (and manage) but that optimistic fighter (who overcame physical death three times) is not that same person she was, she has her father in tears because she has begged him to end her life (which he will not). She has failed in her attempts at hunger strikes and to this day wishes she would have just never opted to overcome death (in the form of cancer) at all let alone three times. Its her biggest regret.

I dont really like talking about that I prefer to hear good stories conquerering death (as they call it) and moving on and living happily ever after, I actually prefer those but this one (which I shared in brief) really bothers me, I have a hard time keeping that "why question" down where it needs to stay. But that one always got to me. Especially since death come knocking (three times) and she certainly wasnt ready (fought) and she prevailed (which is what they call it) to go through that three times for this (as the end result) and living out the rest of your days unable to do anything for yourself where all she wants to do is die. The whole thing is just so sad to me.

Sorry to depress by that, but if you knew you would fight death three times (and prevail) to live on but would end up in her same position who would chose that for themselves or who feels they should.

This post is basically just off yours Wgw dont feel you need to respond I was just wanted to post this up behind, because these bother me.
 
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Mariana B

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So sick and injured children and infants in hospital are wicked then? Or is it their parents?

That's a real warped way to see other peoples tragedies and infirmities.
We are Christians. My son who is a child of 3 contracted toxic shock syndrome at the age of 2 last year.
I agree with you. Was my son wicked? Does a 2 year old know wickedness?
Was I wrong to have him rushed to A&E and have his life saved?
Did Jesus not come into the world and bring people from the dead, and cured diseases and blindness?
 
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Wgw

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We are Christians. My son who is a child of 3 contracted toxic shock syndrome at the age of 2 last year.
I agree with you. Was my son wicked? Does a 2 year old know wickedness?
Was I wrong to have him rushed to A&E and have his life saved?
Did Jesus not come into the world and bring people from the dead, and cured diseases and blindness?

You are quite right. St. Basil invented the hospital as we know it.
 
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Pentateuch and Yeshua

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Tough issues are blood transfusions, organ transplants, genetic modification for curing diseases, stem cells etc, however I personally, as a Jew who believes in Yeshua/Jesus, and not a christian (who tend to believe in Paul/the entire New Testament compiled by the Nicean Council/Catholics) would prefer to reject these treatments for myself. I see them as an abomination, a crime against nature; however, unlike, say a Jehovah's Witness, if someone else requires a blood transfusion, and doesn't believe so strongly about not having it, and the onus was on me to decide, I would ensure that that person's most likely (in my estimation) wish was carried out, because if I am wrong then their blood is on my hands, but if I am right, I am going by THEIR decision so the repercussion is on them and not me. Besides that which is declared clean as food in Leviticus 11, I don't believe that any part of any other living creature should enter our bodies in any way, for any reason, and I do not believe that genetic code should be altered in any way.
 
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Wgw

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Tough issues are blood transfusions, organ transplants, genetic modification for curing diseases, stem cells etc, however I personally, as a Jew who believes in Yeshua/Jesus, and not a christian (who tend to believe in Paul/the entire New Testament compiled by the Nicean Council/Catholics) would prefer to reject these treatments for myself. I see them as an abomination, a crime against nature; however, unlike, say a Jehovah's Witness, if someone else requires a blood transfusion, and doesn't believe so strongly about not having it, and the onus was on me to decide, I would ensure that that person's most likely (in my estimation) wish was carried out, because if I am wrong then their blood is on my hands, but if I am right, I am going by THEIR decision so the repercussion is on them and not me. Besides that which is declared clean as food in Leviticus 11, I don't believe that any part of any other living creature should enter our bodies in any way, for any reason, and I do not believe that genetic code should be altered in any way.

The only place where I find myself disagreeing with you with any particular vigour is on the issue of blood transfusions.
 
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The only place where I find myself disagreeing with you with any particular vigour is on the issue of blood transfusions.

Same here.
Although the sentiment that Messianic Jews believe in Jesus whereas Christians tend to believe in Paul is a bit off.

Jesus saves, not Paul, and I doubt that any Christian would believe otherwise. Paul wrote a lot of the letters in the NT, but he was not in opposition to Christ, did not put himself above Christ, and would, I feel, be horrified at the thought that some people were rating him as an alternative to Christ.
 
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Wgw

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Same here.
Although the sentiment that Messianic Jews believe in Jesus whereas Christians tend to believe in Paul is a bit off.

Jesus saves, not Paul, and I doubt that any Christian would believe otherwise. Paul wrote a lot of the letters in the NT, but he was not in opposition to Christ, did not put himself above Christ, and would, I feel, be horrified at the thought that some people were rating him as an alternative to Christ.

Indeed. We had a major outbreak of anti-Pauline trolling a few weeks back which was greatly annoying.
 
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Pentateuch and Yeshua

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Same here.
Although the sentiment that Messianic Jews believe in Jesus whereas Christians tend to believe in Paul is a bit off.

Jesus saves, not Paul, and I doubt that any Christian would believe otherwise. Paul wrote a lot of the letters in the NT, but he was not in opposition to Christ, did not put himself above Christ, and would, I feel, be horrified at the thought that some people were rating him as an alternative to Christ.
This isn't the place to discuss it (we could make a thread if you want) but almost everything said by Paul can be proven false, inaccurate, incomplete, contrary, deceitful, evil, pro torah, anti torah, anti semitic (no, he wasn't a Jew), a speaker of false prophecy, the subject of negative prophecy, the source of bad fruit, pure rubbish or all of the above.

Some messianic Jews believe Paul was fully pro-torah and legit (although they tend to be gentile-born ex-christians rather than Jewish converts, as most Jews who actually study the NT accept that Yeshua taught pro-jewish teaching most of the time, while Paul taught very anti Torah material).

Anyway I'll draw a line here
------------------------------------------
Because this Paul stuff can drag topics way off, and being in opposition to Paul tends to put me in the position of blame, so make a new thread for it if you wish, and as long as it doesn't degrade into personal insults, either direct or veiled as "you clearly don't understand" "you don't have the holy spirit" "I'll pray for you" or "may your eyes be opened" etc etc, then I'm happy to discuss our difference of opinion :) (I'm not saying YOU will degrade it to personal insults, but there is always someone who comes into the discussion and does it, so I'd rather it was a proviso of the topic that no one who wishes to engage in that discussion may make such posts).

Back on topic, two people now have said that they disagree with me on blood transfusions, and forgive me but there are too many pages to read back through, so even if you've posted them already, could you please explain your reasons? A common one that I'm assuming you might write is that the commandment appears to relate to eating/drinking blood, and not using it medically, transfusing it with our own? Or perhaps you feel that the value of human life surpasses the value of obeying these commandments, as its an act of mercy to preserve human life? The latter one is the closes argument to swaying my opinion, but still, i don't think we should, but as I say, i don't know for certain and so wouldn't allow my own feeling taint my choice where it came to someone else receiving a transfusion.
 
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Wgw

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This isn't the place to discuss it (we could make a thread if you want) but almost everything said by Paul can be proven false,

Untrue.

inaccurate,

On the contrary, it is accurate.

incomplete,

Complete enough for the purposes of Christianity.

contrary,

Harmonious.

deceitful,

Honest.

Virtuous.

pro torah, anti torah,

Here you simply contradict yourself.

anti semitic (no, he wasn't a Jew),

He was, actually.

a speaker of false prophecy,

Not true.

the subject of negative prophecy,

Categorically false.

the source of bad fruit,

If the Christian Church is bad fruit, after having withstood the Roman persecutions, having abolished infanticide and gladiatorial combat, and having invented, among other things, the hospital, there is no good fruit.

pure rubbish or all of the above.

What is pure rubbish is the veritable litany of unfounded, false and offensive abuse you just hurled at the holy Apostle.

Some messianic Jews believe Paul was fully pro-torah and legit (although they tend to be gentile-born ex-christians rather than Jewish converts, as most Jews who actually study the NT accept that Yeshua taught pro-jewish teaching most of the time, while Paul taught very anti Torah material).

To the extent that Jewish converts object to St. Paul, it reflects either a lack of proper catechesis or genuine metanoia and conversion on their part; Jewish converts to Christianity must set aside the distorted perspectives of Rabinnical Judaism, which is a profound distortion of the ancient proto-Christian faith of Moses amd David.

Anyway I'll draw a line here
------------------------------------------
Because this Paul stuff can drag topics way off, and being in opposition to Paul tends to put me in the position of blame, so make a new thread for it if you wish, and as long as it doesn't degrade into personal insults, either direct or veiled as "you clearly don't understand" "you don't have the holy spirit" "I'll pray for you" or "may your eyes be opened" etc etc, then I'm happy to discuss our difference of opinion :) (I'm not saying YOU will degrade it to personal insults, but there is always someone who comes into the discussion and does it, so I'd rather it was a proviso of the topic that no one who wishes to engage in that discussion may make such posts).

I propose that had you not wanted to derail the thread, you would not have dedicated fully two thirds of your post to this unprovoked and unwarranted calumny of St. Paul.
 
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Back on topic, two people now have said that they disagree with me on blood transfusions, and forgive me but there are too many pages to read back through, so even if you've posted them already, could you please explain your reasons? A common one that I'm assuming you might write is that the commandment appears to relate to eating/drinking blood, and not using it medically, transfusing it with our own? Or perhaps you feel that the value of human life surpasses the value of obeying these commandments, as its an act of mercy to preserve human life? The latter one is the closes argument to swaying my opinion, but still, i don't think we should, but as I say, i don't know for certain and so wouldn't allow my own feeling taint my choice where it came to someone else receiving a transfusion.

I'm not going to start a new thread on Paul because that would imply that I think there is something dodgy about him and either want to discuss it or want other views - and I don't. Paul was an amazing servant of Christ and wrote some brilliant, and inspired, words.

My reasons for agreeing with blood transfusions? They may save someone's life.
When God gave the law to the Israelites at Sinai he told them not to eat meat of animals that had blood in it. That does not interpret as "people should not accept blood from another human being when their life is in danger". Such a transfusion does not mean that you are eating that other person.
And Gentiles were not under the Jewish law anyway - far less Christians, who believe in, and are saved by, the blood of Jesus. Jesus even said "if you do not drink my blood you do not have eternal life." We don't do that literally, but every time we receive wine at communion, we remembering his sacrifice and receiving his blood that was given for us.
 
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