True Woship Leader or something else?

AGTG

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It could be a variety of things. It may be that the person has the gifts and calllings, but hasn't quite matured enough to have the character required to lead.

It is also possible that they are very talented, in the natural sense, but don't actually have the gift and calling.

The truest test of the gifts and callings is whether or not the Holy Spirit clearly shows up during worship in your church. If He does, it sounds like perhaps this worship leader needs some guidance and counsel from a more mature believer in his life. If it seems he's receptive to his mentor,perhaps the team could hash it out with the guidance of the lead pastor (in a loving way).
 
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AGTG

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Unfortunately, I'm seeing many church members frustrated but hanging on because they have put their time into building up that church and waiting until the new ego leaves. I'm sensing this new worship leader in his mid-20's cannot relate to anyone older than about 30 or 35, which says he is too immature to accept opinion and guidance from anyone older than he. It's a shame but this is a trend I am seeing all over the area. Young worship leaders coming in and not being able to relate to older, more mature members who try to offer advice and guidance in a very constructive way, but are shut down by the "My way or the highway" attitude of the new kids. It's not just me, I've have several musicians make contact with me and tell me their horror stories of having to deal with massive egos and arrogance from kids just out of school or by only several years. It's sad. THIS is the state of things in Praise and Worship music nowadays. There is a trend and it's not a good one.

Ultimately, it's God who qualifies His servants for their roles. Licenses and documents by men are fine enough, but if God's hand isn't upon them for their ministry it's just a piece of paper.

Also, it seems you're pretty upset about all this. It sounds like you need to forgive this guy from the heart, especially if you're to be ministering together.
 
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rockytopva

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Ultimately, it's God who qualifies His servants for their roles. Licenses and documents by men are fine enough, but if God's hand isn't upon them for their ministry it's just a piece of paper.

Also, it seems you're pretty upset about all this. It sounds like you need to forgive this guy from the heart, especially if you're to be ministering together.
I will like that one and add...

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. - Acts 2:47

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. - 1 Cor 12

We need God to add diversity of gifts, including those talented in the music ministry, for a church to succeed.
 
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actionsub

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If you're only using the New Testament, musical instruments would need to eliminated. That's the reason some churches that don't allow them - or that's what I've read. Or is that what you're suggesting?

There is that. This is a Pentecostal church, though. They don't hold to a strict "regulative principle" like the Church of Christ folks or some of the "hardshell" Baptists.
 
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rockytopva

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Dave-W

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A couple of weeks ago I had this conversation with a long time friend of mine. (like 55 years long-time) I have been a worship leader for decades and he has pastored for decades. We were discussing the various modes of church music: hymns, gospel, choruses, contemporary, etc. the discussion was primarily on where the style of music was supposed to bring the congregation at the end of the song portion of the service.

But we also discussed this issue of ego in church musicians. It is not just an issue for the song or worship leader. Anyone can have it. Having been involved in church music for well over 40 years, and leading congregationally for exactly 40 years (this month) I can tell you I have dealt with many huge egos. And I have had to fight my own ego. The problem comes from an inflated sense of self. Remember, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." and when someone has to call all the shots and everyone has to do it "their way," there is an "I" problem. We are called to be servants. And the Master does not take kindly to his servants lording it over other servants.

What I found as a leader in different situations (independent pentecostal, charismatic, denominational, messianic) is to take your keys from the congregants. If they are NOT entering into worship (and you can tell by how they sing and whether they are focused on HIM or just looking around) then do what you must to get them there. Even though you may have rehearsed a set, it may have to be pitched. That requires listening to the Holy Spirit and watching to see what the congregation responds to and what they DON'T respond to. And that can change from week to week.

There is no place for arrogance in any of that. Leadership - yes; but not arrogance. That kind of leadership requires humility, a LOT of humility. Because you can and WILL get it wrong from time to time. But that is OK.

As a worship leader I consider it a great honor and grave responsibility before HIM to bring His own people before HIS throne to sing His praise. I cannot afford thoughts of self-promotion in that situation. And neither should anyone else.
 
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Dave-W

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Interestingly, just after posting that, I got an email with a link to an article on Worshipleader dot com on the "American Idol" effect on worship leading - tending to push it toward a solo singer concert instead of a shared worship experience. That seems to me to really feed into the whole "do it my way" mentality we have been discussing.

http://worshipleader.com/music/the-american-idol-effect/


Now I do know that Sharon Wilbur, daughter of Messianic music pioneer Joel Chernoff and married to the son of noted worship leader Paul Wilbur was on that show several seasons back. While she is not pursuing a worship leader position, she has appeared with her father in law on a few of his albums.
 
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talitha

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...there are believers who think that unless there's a sermon, the service is out or order, unBiblical.....
I know there are people like that - have had the dubious honor of leading some of them in worship as a guest.... but I don't get why they think it's unBiblical - there is no mention of "sermon" in any discussion of church meetings in the New Testament.
 
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I was raised in a fairly large moderate Baptist church in D/FW, where all the ministers on staff did have their ministerial license granted by a board. The senior pastor held a PhD and most associate pastors held a masters. All had to answer to the board of deacons. Those two qualifications provided a good amount of assurance our ministers were 1) educated with an RE degree or M of M, and 2) vetted by a ministerial board who believed in them enough to grant them a license or certification. They were completely and totally dedicated to ministry. (Unlike some of the CCM worship leaders I have known.) Personally I wouldn't want to raise my family in a church that I wasn't assured the ministers either held advanced degrees and licenses, or at the very least a bachelor's and had been practicing ministers with years of experience in the field and had been licensed for many years. Granted young ministers need to start somewhere, but I firmly believe they should be monitored, coached, counseled, and mentored and reviewed on a regular basis to ensure they perform up to expectations and do NOT have an ego that is out of control. In other words, leave the ego at home. Better yet, keep it in check at all times.

I've witnessed young ministers fired or severely reprimanded because instead of following directions from a senior minister who has years of experience in the profession, these young egos thought they knew better and decided to do it their own way. Sad this happens in the ministry profession but it does.

As far as a contemporary Worship Leader leading the band and congregation, even if I am in the band or not, I would insist the WL has some type of religion or ministry degree or degree in church music or MM and a license granted from an official licensing board mandated from whatever denomination they are members. I believe it's okay to be a lay worship leader participating in that Sunday's service by reading scripture or as a guest musician or singer, or giving witness testimony, which I have done before as have many others, but as far as on being on paid staff without the RE degree and a license or certificate, I wouldn't want to attend that church.

I've seen others, including myself here, that have been totally burned by inexperienced, unlicensed, non-RE degree holding or egotistical ministers that talk a good talk and "act" like a minister in front of people, and some buy into their routine, but when a difficult time comes to actually be a minister and serve the salt of the earth, these people fall way short and leave hurt souls in their wake.
 
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This is some of what I have unfortunately witnessed recently. Points 1,2,5,8,9, and 10 are what I have seen lately in the new worship leader.

From a blog by T.J. Addington - Leading from the Sandbox. Ten marks of Ego-driven leaders:

In an ironic twist from the humble and servant leadership of Christ there are many in Christian leadership in the church and elsewhere (lay and professional) who are driven more by ego and personal success than by a desire to see the Gospel advanced. The Gospel becomes the means by which personal success is achieved rather than the Gospel being the primary objective of their leadership. As a psychologist lamented to me recently, "Why are there so many ego driven and narcissistic leaders in Christian ministry?"

What are the signs of ego driven ministry?

First, it is obvious to those around ego driven leaders that it is about "them" and that the relentless drive for better and bigger is about their leader's success rather than the accomplishment of the mission or serving their team.

Second, ego driven leaders often drive their staff rather than serving and growing their staff as they are the means to their success. When staff feel used, it is a sign that this is about the leader rather than about the mission.

Third, ego driven leaders take credit for success and blame others for failure. They may not do this overtly (that would not look good) but they find ways to inflate their own effectiveness and deflect responsibility for failures.

Fourth, ego driven leaders often exaggerate the actual results of their ministries. Any time the stated results don't match the actual results there is eqo inflation going on. This is ubiquitous in missions!

Fifth, ego driven leaders don't empower their staff but rather control them. After all, it is about them and they want to ensure that it stays about them. Empowerment means giving responsibility, authority and therefore credit for results away.

Sixth, ego driven leaders don't often cooperate with other ministries. If it is not their idea it is not worthy of pursuing. They guard the ability to say "we did this," or "this was our idea."

Seventh, ego driven leaders are highly territorial. There is competition with other ministries as if there were a limited amount of gospel results to be had. Further, they actually believe that they have a corner on the market of how they do what they do.

Eighth, the actions and attitudes of ego driven leaders often do not match their spiritual language. Outsiders may not know the gap but insiders are well aware and the gap breeds cynicism.

Ninth, ego driven leaders give little attention to the contributions of other people to the cause of the kingdom. Their attention, focus and energy is all focused on themselves and their ministry. When talking about other ministries they often find subtle ways to denigrate the strategy and results of others. The putting down of others allows them to inflate themselves.

Tenth, ego driven leaders are not open to criticism, dialogue or feedback regarding their own behavior or leadership. Because it is about them they are not open to the feedback of others if is deemed critical. There is a high defensive mechanism. This means that strong leaders around them do not last long because their input is not welcome. Those who will cater to their egos, however, are always welcome.

My advice for those who work for ego driven leaders? Consider finding another leader to work for whose true focus is the advancement of the kingdom rather than the advancement of themselves and their ego's. Why? because using the gospel as the advancement mechanism for ourselves is anathema to everything Jesus taught about leadership in His kingdom. It is never about us. It is always about Him. Something for every leader to think about.
 
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Avalonforhim

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I would like to speak to the egos and general personality "flaws" of the young generation of worship leaders. Senior Pastors, Deacons, and the elders of a church have all been charged with guiding their church to the will of God. For each one of them to do that, they must deny themselves and look up. Many times, this does not happen.
That being said, who hired the "young, cocky, egotistical" worship leaders? The problem is not that this individual is obviously wholly unprepared to lead others in worship, but the fact that they were put in that position of authority before they were ready, that is, a God-fearing servant.
Another possibility is that those who placed this individual in a position of power over others feels led by God to mentor this youth so that they may grow into a worship leader you would want to see leading your brothers and sisters.
In the end, the question is not "why are they awful?" The question is, "what can I do to benefit the kingdom?" Was that fleeing this personality you disagreed with? or would the answer have been to help guide your brother with humility and the grace of God?

God Bless
 
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Avalonforhim

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I was raised in a fairly large moderate Baptist church in D/FW, where all the ministers on staff did have their ministerial license granted by a board. The senior pastor held a PhD and most associate pastors held a masters. All had to answer to the board of deacons. Those two qualifications provided a good amount of assurance our ministers were 1) educated with an RE degree or M of M, and 2) vetted by a ministerial board who believed in them enough to grant them a license or certification. They were completely and totally dedicated to ministry. (Unlike some of the CCM worship leaders I have known.) Personally I wouldn't want to raise my family in a church that I wasn't assured the ministers either held advanced degrees and licenses, or at the very least a bachelor's and had been practicing ministers with years of experience in the field and had been licensed for many years. Granted young ministers need to start somewhere, but I firmly believe they should be monitored, coached, counseled, and mentored and reviewed on a regular basis to ensure they perform up to expectations and do NOT have an ego that is out of control. In other words, leave the ego at home. Better yet, keep it in check at all times.

I've witnessed young ministers fired or severely reprimanded because instead of following directions from a senior minister who has years of experience in the profession, these young egos thought they knew better and decided to do it their own way. Sad this happens in the ministry profession but it does.

As far as a contemporary Worship Leader leading the band and congregation, even if I am in the band or not, I would insist the WL has some type of religion or ministry degree or degree in church music or MM and a license granted from an official licensing board mandated from whatever denomination they are members. I believe it's okay to be a lay worship leader participating in that Sunday's service by reading scripture or as a guest musician or singer, or giving witness testimony, which I have done before as have many others, but as far as on being on paid staff without the RE degree and a license or certificate, I wouldn't want to attend that church.

I've seen others, including myself here, that have been totally burned by inexperienced, unlicensed, non-RE degree holding or egotistical ministers that talk a good talk and "act" like a minister in front of people, and some buy into their routine, but when a difficult time comes to actually be a minister and serve the salt of the earth, these people fall way short and leave hurt souls in their wake.

I don't think Paul had a ministerial license. He did ok.
 
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Dave-W

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As far as a contemporary Worship Leader leading the band and congregation, even if I am in the band or not, I would insist the WL has some type of religion or ministry degree or degree in church music or MM and a license granted from an official licensing board mandated from whatever denomination they are members. I believe it's okay to be a lay worship leader participating in that Sunday's service by reading scripture or as a guest musician or singer, or giving witness testimony, which I have done before as have many others, but as far as on being on paid staff without the RE degree and a license or certificate, I wouldn't want to attend that church.
Why would the WL be on "paid staff?"

I did that job for 11 years at a congregation - 3 services a week and never got a dime. (at my own insistence) I wrote much of the music. I arranged almost all of the music. All that while holding down an engineering job that ran about 55-60 hours a week and being sole breadwinner for my wife and 4 young children.

I have been told that I am a very effective WL and am still sought out on occasion to lead. I have no "formal" ministerial license or theological degree. I took music lessons in high school including music theory, but not at the collegiate level.

BTW - I can hold my own in theological discussions with M Div and ThD pastors.
 
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Dave-W

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LOVE Paul Wilbur's music.
My son and I got to back Wilbur and Marc Chopinsky (who wrote much of his early material) on drums and bass respectively at a conference a few years ago.
It was a highlight moment for both of us.
 
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This is some of what I have unfortunately witnessed recently. Points 1,2,5,8,9, and 10 are what I have seen lately in the new worship leader.

From a blog by T.J. Addington - Leading from the Sandbox. Ten marks of Ego-driven leaders:

In an ironic twist from the humble and servant leadership of Christ there are many in Christian leadership in the church and elsewhere (lay and professional) who are driven more by ego and personal success than by a desire to see the Gospel advanced. The Gospel becomes the means by which personal success is achieved rather than the Gospel being the primary objective of their leadership. As a psychologist lamented to me recently, "Why are there so many ego driven and narcissistic leaders in Christian ministry?"

What are the signs of ego driven ministry?

First, it is obvious to those around ego driven leaders that it is about "them" and that the relentless drive for better and bigger is about their leader's success rather than the accomplishment of the mission or serving their team.

Second, ego driven leaders often drive their staff rather than serving and growing their staff as they are the means to their success. When staff feel used, it is a sign that this is about the leader rather than about the mission.

Third, ego driven leaders take credit for success and blame others for failure. They may not do this overtly (that would not look good) but they find ways to inflate their own effectiveness and deflect responsibility for failures.

Fourth, ego driven leaders often exaggerate the actual results of their ministries. Any time the stated results don't match the actual results there is eqo inflation going on. This is ubiquitous in missions!

Fifth, ego driven leaders don't empower their staff but rather control them. After all, it is about them and they want to ensure that it stays about them. Empowerment means giving responsibility, authority and therefore credit for results away.

Sixth, ego driven leaders don't often cooperate with other ministries. If it is not their idea it is not worthy of pursuing. They guard the ability to say "we did this," or "this was our idea."

Seventh, ego driven leaders are highly territorial. There is competition with other ministries as if there were a limited amount of gospel results to be had. Further, they actually believe that they have a corner on the market of how they do what they do.

Eighth, the actions and attitudes of ego driven leaders often do not match their spiritual language. Outsiders may not know the gap but insiders are well aware and the gap breeds cynicism.

Ninth, ego driven leaders give little attention to the contributions of other people to the cause of the kingdom. Their attention, focus and energy is all focused on themselves and their ministry. When talking about other ministries they often find subtle ways to denigrate the strategy and results of others. The putting down of others allows them to inflate themselves.

Tenth, ego driven leaders are not open to criticism, dialogue or feedback regarding their own behavior or leadership. Because it is about them they are not open to the feedback of others if is deemed critical. There is a high defensive mechanism. This means that strong leaders around them do not last long because their input is not welcome. Those who will cater to their egos, however, are always welcome.

My advice for those who work for ego driven leaders? Consider finding another leader to work for whose true focus is the advancement of the kingdom rather than the advancement of themselves and their ego's. Why? because using the gospel as the advancement mechanism for ourselves is anathema to everything Jesus taught about leadership in His kingdom. It is never about us. It is always about Him. Something for every leader to think about.
This is a great list. While I had not seen it before - those are all points that I intentionally avoided during my term as WL.
 
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@Avalonforhim - the WL I discuss was brought in under circumstances I have not seen. Our Senior pastor retired due to health reasons. His son was youth pastor. Due to his retirement, the denomination we are members of have in their charter an incoming pastor my bring his OWN staff with him. It turns out, the new pastor brought with him his wife and kids, naturally. His wife was Children's minister. He brought the young WL with him after having worked with him in 3 different churches. The WL's wife is youth minister. The children's pastor and youth pastor who were currently serving in those positions were let go and told they had to leave to make way for the new pastor and his crew. So to recap, our church experienced a huge turnover in ministers all at once- all paid staff positions. The 4 new people: the new pastor, his wife as children's pastor, the WL, and his wife as the youth pastor. So two couples with all 4 basically running the church. The new pastor is 40ish. The WL and his wife are mid-20's. And after having worked together in 3 previous churches, you can see their cohesiveness. I'm no psychiatrist, but you can bet that the 20-something WL feels like he can run the ship anyway he sees fit - within reason - and his buddy and mentor, the senior pastor - has his back. With this arrangement you can somewhat see how his cockiness and arrogance emerged over the years. So you can imagine the WL's edict in the first band and choir meetings "you can go up against me if you want, but in the end, I'll win because I get paid to do this...." To make matters worse, the church board and congregation voted in the senior pastor and his wife as youth pastor. NOBODY got the chance to hear or play with the WL. The church never got the chance to vote on the WL and his wife. They came in the package deal with the pastor and his wife.

Considering the fact the WL was pretty much shoved upon us without a church-wide vote, as is the normal case in our denomination, this entire thing stinks. I fully believe the church board let the congregation down. Also, after suffering through several rehearsals with this new WL, it became apparent to me there would be no way I could or would take his arrogance and egotism. I've reached a certain level in my professional career where I don't have to put up with someone's arrogance and egotism; I don't nor will I ever. Why should I at church in a strictly volunteer position? Most important of all, my attitude was bad because of this, there was no way I could continue to play and help lead worship; I couldn't do it with a clear heart and mind to serve. It wouldn't be fair to me, my wife, my bandmates, the congregation, but most of all, the Lord.

As for Paul never having a ministerial license, you are correct, he did very good, but I'm sure you realize Paul was serving the Lord when the church and Christianity was just getting started and it was a grassroots effort. Back then they had very few licenses for anything. But some of the best worship experiences I have had have been with lay worship leaders in a one-on-one situation or in a small Sunday School class.
 
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@davew - From reading your post it is very impressive. I'm sure you are very good and well sought after as a WL. And I am glad to see you intentionally stayed away from "the list". The church and denomination we belong to pays their main staff. We attend a fairly large church in D/FW and the congregation size can support having a paid senior pastor, youth pastor, children's pastor and worship leader. It also supports a preschool with paid staff and several church office positions. The churches I have been members of, except for a small one consisting of less than 50 members, have all had paid staff and office positions. Most, if not all, have the staff positions as holding some type of religion or music degree. The senior pastors all held advanced degrees or PhDs. The old saying, "everything is bigger in Texas" applies here as well. Grin
 
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Dave-W

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@davew - From reading your post it is very impressive. I'm sure you are very good and well sought after as a WL. And I am glad to see you intentionally stayed away from "the list". The church and denomination we belong to pays their main staff. We attend a fairly large church in D/FW and the congregation size can support having a paid senior pastor, youth pastor, children's pastor and worship leader. It also supports a preschool with paid staff and several church office positions. The churches I have been members of, except for a small one consisting of less than 50 members, have all had paid staff and office positions. Most, if not all, have the staff positions as holding some type of religion or music degree. The senior pastors all held advanced degrees or PhDs. The old saying, "everything is bigger in Texas" applies here as well. Grin
Well - you might be pleased to learn that my classes in music theory and arrangement were taken in Texas - Waxahachi to be specific. It was at the A/G college there for a summer music camp put on by the Southern Gospel quartets JD Sumner and the Stamps and the Blackwood Brothers. That was the summers between my freshman and sophomore hs years for the first class, and between my junior and senior hs years for the second level class.

During my term as WL in a small congregation in Michigan, a Presbyterian congregation in Brownsville TX flew my wife and I down there to lead worship at a weekend renewal seminar.
 
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I get emailings from Worship Leader magazine and one just came in that linked to an article. I thought it might be of interest.

http://worshipleader.com/leadership/7-characteristics-of-a-seasoned-worship-leader/

7 Characteristics of a Seasoned Worship Leader

Question: I’m what you might call a “seasoned veteran,” but I know I haven’t “arrived” yet. I want to be as good a worship leader as I can be. What can someone like me do to get to that “next level?”

Answer: I appreciate your desire to grow as a worship leader even though you’ve been at it awhile. It says a lot about your character. The great worship leaders I know would never refer to themselves as “elite” even though you and I regard them as such. They may be confident about their abilities, but they’re still humble people. In addition, I identify seven characteristics they all commonly share. The first three traits deal with the worship leader as a person, the other four with actually leading worship.

  1. They’ve dealt with their “stuff”The best worship leaders are self-aware; they’re emotionally and spiritually mature. At peace with who they are, they’re comfortable in their own skin, but they’ve also faced the sobering truth about their fatal flaws. Instead of living in denial, they’re attentive to their besetting sins, “blind spots,” and dysfunctional tendencies.
  1. They have spiritual depth.
    The accomplished worship leaders have vibrant spiritual lives nurtured by regular Bible reading, prayer, and other spiritual practices. In other words, spiritually speaking, they’re the “real deal.”
  1. They’ve honed their musical craft.
    Whether it’s singing, playing, or songwriting, those elite worship leaders have put in time and effort to master at least one musical discipline.
  1. They’re prepared.
    The best worship leaders don’t “fly by the seat of their pants.” They come ready to lead—musically and spiritually. They know the music, memorized the words, practiced all transitions, and have their gear set up, ready to go. They’re not only familiar with the worship set but most likely prayed through it as well.
  1. They don’t mince words.
    Transitional comments between songs are brief, cogent, and meaningful. They don’t ramble when they pray. In other words, they’ve thought through what they’re going to say, perhaps even scripted out their verbal comments.
  1. They help facilitate meaningful encounters with God.
    Because the goal of top-level worship leaders is to point people to Christ, they always try to bring some spiritual nugget—a fresh thought or idea—to worship. For example, they might call attention to a word or phrase in a lyric, share a Scripture, or invite the congregation to ponder a thought or question. They may comment on the meaning of a song. They’re always looking for ways to help the congregation connect—heart, soul, and mind—with the lyrics and message of the music.
  1. They know how to “read the room.”
    I call this “graduate-level worship leading.” It’s the ability to go beyond the music, get outside yourself, and be present in the moment; it’s an awareness of what is (or isn’t) happening “out there” in the congregation and knowing how to respond. For example, it happens when a worship leader senses that people are connecting deeply with a song and repeats the chorus, extending the moment. Sensitive worship leaders can tell when the congregation isn’t engaged. Instead of aggressively prodding, like an overbearing cheerleader, they lovingly invite their flock into God’s presence. Sometimes when the Holy Spirit is moving mightily, shifting abruptly to the next element of the service (like the announcements) violates the moment. At that point, a skilled worship leader might spontaneously add a simple chorus everyone already knows, have the people sing a cappella, pray, or share Scripture to bring appropriate closure.
Rory Noland is a regular contributor to Worship Leader magazine. For more information on his ministry visit heartoftheartist.org.
 
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