Hymns can be pretty bad too

James Is Back · Sep 6, 2014

bbbbbbb said:
Not necessarily, but I think it really has been overdone so far as to have become the official hymn of police and fire department funerals (played on bagpipes (!) of course).

I agree it's been overdone but I still like it. It's just something about the tune that makes me like it

bbbbbbb · Sep 6, 2014

Reborn Yet Again said:
I agree it's been overdone but I still like it. It's just something about the tune that makes me like it

Actually, there are other tunes to which it has been set which I prefer. It is the lyrics which I like.

Shane R · Sep 6, 2014

That last comment made me think of some hymns which are ruined by being set to a particular tune. The first that comes to mind is "The Church's One Foundation" which had an alternate setting to Wesley's "Aurelia" in the hymnal that was used in my childhood. The other setting was rarely used (except when someone wished to show off their aptitude for reading shape notes) because no one liked it.

Likewise the Episcopal hymnal has more settings for the Gloria, Agnus Dei, and Nunc Dimittis than any other hymnal I know of. Some are good, some tolerable, and some clunky or ugly.

graceandpeace · Sep 7, 2014

shanethetheologian said:
That last comment made me think of some hymns which are ruined by being set to a particular tune. The first that comes to mind is "The Church's One Foundation" which had an alternate setting to Wesley's "Aurelia" in the hymnal that was used in my childhood. The other setting was rarely used (except when someone wished to show off their aptitude for reading shape notes) because no one liked it.

Likewise the Episcopal hymnal has more settings for the Gloria, Agnus Dei, and Nunc Dimittis than any other hymnal I know of. Some are good, some tolerable, and some clunky or ugly.

I enjoy most of the music from the Episcopal hymnal. I actually do like the hymn set to "Aurelia" you mentioned. But yea, I agree some songs can be ruined by the wrong tune.

bbbbbbb · Sep 7, 2014

shanethetheologian said:
That last comment made me think of some hymns which are ruined by being set to a particular tune. The first that comes to mind is "The Church's One Foundation" which had an alternate setting to Wesley's "Aurelia" in the hymnal that was used in my childhood. The other setting was rarely used (except when someone wished to show off their aptitude for reading shape notes) because no one liked it.

Likewise the Episcopal hymnal has more settings for the Gloria, Agnus Dei, and Nunc Dimittis than any other hymnal I know of. Some are good, some tolerable, and some clunky or ugly.

Yes, Wesley's "Lo, He Comes With Clouds Descending" has some excellent tunes used for it, but it is completely butchered in the hymnal my church uses.

royal priest · Feb 7, 2016

I really dislike singing any hymns that fit 3/4 measure (waltz-123,123,123). The words may be great, but imo, 3/4 measure does not make for good hymnody!

Commander Xenophon · Feb 7, 2016

This thread makes me appreciate the Orthodox hymnody, which tends to be more than a millenia in age. The Triodion, Pemtecostarion, Octoechos and Menaion are the grandest of hymnals.

royal priest · Feb 7, 2016

Commander Xenophon said:
This thread makes me appreciate the Orthodox hymnody, which tends to be more than a millenia in age. The Triodion, Pemtecostarion, Octoechos and Menaion are the grandest of hymnals.

Are there hymns of that tradition which you don't particularly care for?

Commander Xenophon · Feb 7, 2016

royal priest said:
Are there hymns of that tradition which you don't particularly care for?

No.

Take a look at this remarkable hymn for Christmas Matins:

‘Christ is born, give glory! Christ comes from heaven, go to meet him! Christ is upon earth, be exalted! Sing to the Lord all the earth; and all you peoples raise the hymn with joy, for he has been glorified’.

Ruined through transgression, the one made in God’s image became wholly subject to corruption, fell stumbling from a better and divine life. Him the wise Creator now refashions, for he has been glorified.

The Creator, seeing humanity that he had made with his own hands perishing, bowed the heavens and came down; but he took its whole being from a divine, pure Virgin, being made truly flesh; for he has been glorified.

Wisdom, Word and Power, Son of the Father and his Radiance, Christ God, unknown to the powers beyond the world and to those on earth and having taken human nature, won us back again; for he has been glorified.

Another Canon, in Iambics, by Monk John, having an Acrostic in elegaic couplets:

With songs of eloquence these hymns proclaim
God’s Son for mortals’ sake on earth now born,
Abolishing the world’s grim miseries.
But, King, deliver preachers from these pains.

Ode 1. The same Tone. The Irmos.

‘Of old the Master who works wonders saved a people,
‘Turning the wat’ry waves of the sea into dry land;
‘And now he has been born of his own will from a Maiden,
‘Establishes a path for us to mount to heaven.
‘We glorify him, equal by essence to Father and to mortals’.

Clearly prefigured by the bush unburned
A hallowed womb has borne in it the Word,
God mingled with a mortal form, who now
Frees Eve’s unhappy womb from bitter curse
Of old. Him now we mortals glorify.

A star to Magi clearly showed the Word
Who was before the sun and yet he came
To make an end of sin, in a poor cave:
You, the compassionate, in swaddling clothes.
With joy they saw you, mortal man and Lord.

Wgw · Feb 7, 2016

Commander Xenophon said:
No.

Take a look at this remarkable hymn for Christmas Matins:

‘Christ is born, give glory! Christ comes from heaven, go to meet him! Christ is upon earth, be exalted! Sing to the Lord all the earth; and all you peoples raise the hymn with joy, for he has been glorified’.

Ruined through transgression, the one made in God’s image became wholly subject to corruption, fell stumbling from a better and divine life. Him the wise Creator now refashions, for he has been glorified.

The Creator, seeing humanity that he had made with his own hands perishing, bowed the heavens and came down; but he took its whole being from a divine, pure Virgin, being made truly flesh; for he has been glorified.

Wisdom, Word and Power, Son of the Father and his Radiance, Christ God, unknown to the powers beyond the world and to those on earth and having taken human nature, won us back again; for he has been glorified.

Another Canon, in Iambics, by Monk John, having an Acrostic in elegaic couplets:

With songs of eloquence these hymns proclaim
God’s Son for mortals’ sake on earth now born,
Abolishing the world’s grim miseries.
But, King, deliver preachers from these pains.

Ode 1. The same Tone. The Irmos.

‘Of old the Master who works wonders saved a people,
‘Turning the wat’ry waves of the sea into dry land;
‘And now he has been born of his own will from a Maiden,
‘Establishes a path for us to mount to heaven.
‘We glorify him, equal by essence to Father and to mortals’.

Clearly prefigured by the bush unburned
A hallowed womb has borne in it the Word,
God mingled with a mortal form, who now
Frees Eve’s unhappy womb from bitter curse
Of old. Him now we mortals glorify.

A star to Magi clearly showed the Word
Who was before the sun and yet he came
To make an end of sin, in a poor cave:
You, the compassionate, in swaddling clothes.
With joy they saw you, mortal man and Lord.

You should have posted that in my "edifying liturgical quotes" thread in TT.

I would note you are using the Archimandite Ephraim Menaion; I really like the Archimandrite, but as a matter of stylistic preference, I prefer the Festal Menaion of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and Mother Mary (also their Triodion).

royal priest · Feb 7, 2016

Commander Xenophon said:
No.

Take a look at this remarkable hymn for Christmas Matins:

‘Christ is born, give glory! Christ comes from heaven, go to meet him! Christ is upon earth, be exalted! Sing to the Lord all the earth; and all you peoples raise the hymn with joy, for he has been glorified’.

Ruined through transgression, the one made in God’s image became wholly subject to corruption, fell stumbling from a better and divine life. Him the wise Creator now refashions, for he has been glorified.

The Creator, seeing humanity that he had made with his own hands perishing, bowed the heavens and came down; but he took its whole being from a divine, pure Virgin, being made truly flesh; for he has been glorified.

Wisdom, Word and Power, Son of the Father and his Radiance, Christ God, unknown to the powers beyond the world and to those on earth and having taken human nature, won us back again; for he has been glorified.

Another Canon, in Iambics, by Monk John, having an Acrostic in elegaic couplets:

With songs of eloquence these hymns proclaim
God’s Son for mortals’ sake on earth now born,
Abolishing the world’s grim miseries.
But, King, deliver preachers from these pains.

Ode 1. The same Tone. The Irmos.

‘Of old the Master who works wonders saved a people,
‘Turning the wat’ry waves of the sea into dry land;
‘And now he has been born of his own will from a Maiden,
‘Establishes a path for us to mount to heaven.
‘We glorify him, equal by essence to Father and to mortals’.

Clearly prefigured by the bush unburned
A hallowed womb has borne in it the Word,
God mingled with a mortal form, who now
Frees Eve’s unhappy womb from bitter curse
Of old. Him now we mortals glorify.

A star to Magi clearly showed the Word
Who was before the sun and yet he came
To make an end of sin, in a poor cave:
You, the compassionate, in swaddling clothes.
With joy they saw you, mortal man and Lord.

Is that a translation?

Wgw · Feb 7, 2016

royal priest said:
Is that a translation?

Yes. That hymn, like so much else, was originally in Greek, but has been translated into many other languages: Church Slavonic, Romanian, Georgian, Arabic, Japanese...

royal priest · Feb 7, 2016

My wife just translated a hymn into Spanish. It was originally German then translated into French and English. She derived from each translation to come up with her own. Here is the English version:

Whate’er my God ordains is right:
His holy will abideth;
I will be still whate’er He doth;
And follow where He guideth;
He is my God; though dark my road,
He holds me that I shall not fall:
Wherefore to Him I leave it all.

Whate’er my God ordains is right:
He never will deceive me;
He leads me by the proper path:
I know He will not leave me.
I take, content, what He hath sent;
His hand can turn my griefs away,
And patiently I wait His day.

Whate’er my God ordains is right:
He is my Friend and Father;
He suffers naught to do me harm,
Though many storms may gather,
Now I may know both joy and woe,
Some day I shall see clearly
That He hath loved me dearly.

Whate’er my God ordains is right:
Though now this cup, in drinking,
May bitter seem to my faint heart,
I take it, all unshrinking.
My God is true; each morn anew
Sweet comfort yet shall fill my heart,
And pain and sorrow shall depart.

Whate’er my God ordains is right:
Here shall my stand be taken;
Though sorrow, need, or death be mine,
Yet I am not forsaken.
My Father’s care is round me there;
He holds me that I shall not fall:
And so to Him I leave it all.

Wgw · Feb 7, 2016

royal priest said:
Is that a translation?

By the way, if you have Apple Music, I can link you to several recordings of the above in English and other languages. It can sound quite different depending on whether its in Byzantine, Slavonic or another style of chant.

royal priest · Feb 7, 2016

Wgw said:
By the way, if you have Apple Music, I can link you to several recordings of the above in English and other languages. It can sound quite different depending on whether its in Byzantine, Slavonic or another style of chant.

I would like that. Even if it may sound better in a foreign language, I would prefer the English so that I could worship according to the theology.

Wgw · Feb 8, 2016

royal priest said:
I would like that. Even if it may sound better in a foreign language, I would prefer the English so that I could worship according to the theology.

I think the Orthodox music sounds good despite the language. The Russian, Ukranian, Carpatho-Rusyn and English language music however tends to be most appealing to Western ears.

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 8, 2016

ViaCrucis said:
It's fairly common for those of us in liturgical or otherwise hymn-oriented churches to complain about bad worship music in the modern Praise and Worship genre. But let's be fair, it's not exactly like every hymn we sing is a gem.

On Sunday one of the hymns we sang was Will You Come and Follow Me

Will you come and follow Me, The Summons. a Christian song of following a calling from God - YouTube

My opinion? Blech!

Firstly, I'm just not a fan of singing "in the voice of God/Jesus". Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the basic sentiment of this song--Christ's call for His Church to go out into the world. But it seems like a really strange thing for us to be singing on Sunday morning. It'd work better as a folk tune around a campfire.

What exactly is going on when we sing something like this? Are we reminding God that He called us to do good in the world, why?

So I'm officially putting this on my "hymns I can do without" list.

What are some of your least favorite hymns? And why?

Note: A hymn is distinct from a praise chorus. Hymns are a set of lyrical stanzas all set to the same meter. If between verses there's a repeated chorus, it's a praise chorus rather than a hymn. Hymns don't have to be old, this one I've mentioned from what I looked up was written in 1987, and a hymn I really do love, In Christ Alone, was written in 2001.

And just to rile up some feathers, I have a theological bone to pick with How Great Thou Art (and is it really a hymn if it has that repeated refrain?), it's that final stanza:

"When Christ shall come with shout of acclamation
And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart!
Then *I shall bow in humble adoration,
And there proclaim, My God, how great thou art!"

You might think, "Well, what's wrong with that?" The issue here, I think, is perhaps subtle. It's not the joy of Christ's coming, it's "And take me home". Here this song has laid out the glory of God in His creation, the beauty of the stars in the heavens, the terrible thunder, the fields and woods and birds. And then, at the end it's, "God take me from this world!"

It's that escapist theology that managed to trickle down into Western Christianity within the last couple hundred years, away from God's condescension to rescue and restore the world, to God is taking us out from the world to live away from the world in the sweet by-and-by.

-CryptoLutheran

We are rejoicing in the coming of our King, to be with Him where He is... can't see anything wrong with that, imo.

Hymns can be pretty bad too

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