LDS BOM explains salvation better than the Bible?

Tawhano

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The point of this thread is to ascertain why W. John Walsh believed that the BOM does a better job of explaining how a person comes to Christ than any other book. So far Alma 34 and 42 were presented as a defense to that bold statement. I did not find the verses quoted to be concise; rather I found them to generate more questions.

What I see is that without the guidance of the LDS Church in teaching the precepts the BOM would not convey any clearer message. In other words, if you are taught a scripture means something more than what the grammar shows then you would not find the meaning there.

I believe such a bold statement such as that of Mr. Walsh made deserves an answer.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I think Paul had perhaps read a copy of the Lord's prayer and then used the concepts found there to teach doctrine.

sample 1
Jesus; " As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him this is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Paul; God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh
Comparing these verses is like comparing apples to oranges.

In the Jesus part:

It is speaking of Jesus divinity as being God. Jesus has the power over ALL flesh (human beings) that He should give them (humans) eternal life to as many as thou (the Father )hast given Him. The life that Jesus gives is eternal life, through Jesus that they may know the Only True God (the Father) and Jesus Christ whom thou (the Father) has sent.

In the Paul part
God (Father) sending his own Son (the Son of God) onto the earth to be born in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (human beings).

The Jesus part is talking about the Father and the Son. And that the Son was sent by the Father to the earth as Jesus.
The Paul part is saying that the Father SENT the Son in the likeness of sinful flesh when Jesus Christ was born as a human.

SO, what is the issue that you have?
 
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withwonderingawe

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Comparing these verses is like comparing apples to oranges.

In the Jesus part:

It is speaking of Jesus divinity as being God. Jesus has the power over ALL flesh (human beings) that He should give them (humans) eternal life to as many as thou (the Father )hast given Him. The life that Jesus gives is eternal life, through Jesus that they may know the Only True God (the Father) and Jesus Christ whom thou (the Father) has sent.

In the Paul part
God (Father) sending his own Son (the Son of God) onto the earth to be born in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (human beings).

The Jesus part is talking about the Father and the Son. And that the Son was sent by the Father to the earth as Jesus.
The Paul part is saying that the Father SENT the Son in the likeness of sinful flesh when Jesus Christ was born as a human.

SO, what is the issue that you have?

Yes they both were speaking about Jesus mission to save us, Paul drew from Jesus’ prayer reworded it to fit in with some other points he was making. In so doing he chose to use justified instead of sanctified, Joseph Smith just chose to change it back to sanctified and for some reason this upsets Tawhano.
 
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withwonderingawe

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The point of this thread is to ascertain why W. John Walsh believed that the BOM does a better job of explaining how a person comes to Christ than any other book. So far Alma 34 and 42 were presented as a defense to that bold statement. I did not find the verses quoted to be concise; rather I found them to generate more questions.

What I see is that without the guidance of the LDS Church in teaching the precepts the BOM would not convey any clearer message. In other words, if you are taught a scripture means something more than what the grammar shows then you would not find the meaning there.

I believe such a bold statement such as that of Mr. Walsh made deserves an answer.

Well then that is your problem, I explained it and you have not accepted the answer. Why don't you try reading the whole book, pray about it.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yes they both were speaking about Jesus mission to save us, Paul drew from Jesus’ prayer reworded it to fit in with some other points he was making. In so doing he chose to use justified instead of sanctified, Joseph Smith just chose to change it back to sanctified and for some reason this upsets Tawhano.
What do each of those words mean? Justified and sanctified?

I wonder if the ones who do not care, really know?
 
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withwonderingawe

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What do each of those words mean? Justified and sanctified?

I wonder if the ones who do not care, really know?

My feeling is the atonement justifies, it paid for our sins and answered the demands of justices it brought about mercy. Sanctification is the next step, it's us putting off the man of sin or the desire to sin. It's us with the help of the Holy Spirit learning Christ like love and becoming one with God. Once we have reached that point then we are glorified.

Many people will be justified, they accepted Jesus as their savior put not all will become glorified.
 
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fatboys

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I follow the Hebrew Scriptures. Some may call it the “Old Testament” but the order of the books is different than what Christians have in their Bibles and Christian Bibles are all translations of translations and not in Hebrew.
Not to throw a wet blanket in here but all you have is copies of copies of copies of oral traditions.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Yes, of course, copies of copies of copies of oral stories, but we do have fragments of those copies that are over 2000 years old that can be seen and researched in this very day.

How many copies of reformed Egyptian exist to be studied today or is it all a translation?

Reformed Egyptian is sort of a misnomer.

It is believed by some who have studied the Book of Mormon that Lehi was a trader who traveled between Jerusalem and Egypt. He had the tents and was ready to go at a moments notices. His wife is named Sariah which has been found among a group of Jews who were living along the Nile. He named one son Sam, not Samuel but Sam which is the Egyptian for Shem, so there is some connection there.

Now let’s look at what the Book of Mormon actually says;

Nephi writes; "Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians." 1Nephi

Nearly a thousand years later one of his descendants Mormon writes (Mormon 9)

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.
33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.
34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

Someone called it shorthand Egyptian which only they could read but even their Hebrew had major changes to it. It would be like us trying to understand Old English.

But the point is The Book of Mormon does not claim there is such a thing as Reformed Egyptian but that they reformed it to fit their specific needs.

This article is written by William J. Hamblin

“…..Turning specifically to Egyptian, there are numerous examples of modified (or reformed) Egyptian characters being used to write non-Egyptian languages, none of which were known in Joseph Smith’s day.

The Egyptian language was written in three related but distinct scripts. The oldest is hieroglyphic script, dating to around 3000 bc; it was essentially a monumental script for stone inscriptions. Hieratic, a second script, is a modified form of Egyptian hieroglyphics used to write formal documents on papyrus with brush and ink, and demotic is a cursive script…...

The earliest known example of mixing a Semitic language with modified Egyptian hieroglyphic characters is the Byblos Syllabic inscriptions (eighteenth century bc), from the city of Byblos on the Phoenician coast. This script is described as a “syllabify [that] is clearly inspired by the Egyptian hieroglyphic system, and in fact it is the most important link known between the hieroglyphs and the Canaanite alphabet.” Interestingly enough, most Byblos Syllabic texts were written on copper plates. Thus, it would not be unreasonable to describe the Byblos Syllabic texts as a Semitic language written on metal plates in reformed Egyptian characters, which is precisely what the Book of Mormon describes…”

http://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/review/19/1/S00006-5176a7ad373d86Hamblin.pdf
 
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BigDaddy4

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You accuse the Bible (or at least the Old Testament books and other Jewish books in the following comment to the Jewish poster you directed it to) of this:

Not to throw a wet blanket in here but all you have is copies of copies of copies of oral traditions.

Yet, the lds have NO copies of anything other than an alleged transcription of some golden plates. And even that alleged "transcription" had to be cleaned up with over 3,000 errors.

That's rich with hypocrisy!
 
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withwonderingawe

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You accuse the Bible (or at least the Old Testament books and other Jewish books in the following comment to the Jewish poster you directed it to) of this:



Yet, the lds have NO copies of anything other than an alleged transcription of some golden plates. And even that alleged "transcription" had to be cleaned up with over 3,000 errors.

That's rich with hypocrisy!

Have you ever taken the time to find out what those errors are or do you just take the word of some anti Mormon writer?

Actually you're a little short on the count there have been over 100,000 changes counting punctuation (Hebrew has none), creating chapters and verses, spell errors and changing the Hebrew language style into a more readable English style. There have been one or two name changes where the typesetter goofed and a few clarification as to who the Son of God is.

Mormons know this, it's not something new.
 
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Tawhano

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Well then that is your problem, I explained it and you have not accepted the answer.
Not my problem at all. This is a forum where people share their views and defend them. While I appreciate your effort in trying to explain your views on why the Book of Mormon does a better job of clearly explaining how a person comes unto Christ than any other book I did not reach the same conclusion as you did after reading your explanation. I gave my reasons and did not reject your point of view out of hand but with careful examination.
Why don't you try reading the whole book, pray about it.
I have read the BOM three times from cover to cover. I have been visited by missionaries and given material to read and considered since 2002 on numerous occasions. I have researched the claims of your church on pro-Mormon sites such as LDS.org. I have given those claims much thought and prayers. I did not reach the same conclusion as you did.
 
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fatboys

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Not my problem at all. This is a forum where people share their views and defend them. While I appreciate your effort in trying to explain your views on why the Book of Mormon does a better job of clearly explaining how a person comes unto Christ than any other book I did not reach the same conclusion as you did after reading your explanation. I gave my reasons and did not reject your point of view out of hand but with careful examination.
I have read the BOM three times from cover to cover. I have been visited by missionaries and given material to read and considered since 2002 on numerous occasions. I have researched the claims of your church on pro-Mormon sites such as LDS.org. I have given those claims much thought and prayers. I did not reach the same conclusion as you did.
Then the restoration isn't for you
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yes they both were speaking about Jesus mission to save us, Paul drew from Jesus’ prayer reworded it to fit in with some other points he was making. In so doing he chose to use justified instead of sanctified, Joseph Smith just chose to change it back to sanctified and for some reason this upsets Tawhano.
I think this is misleading.

Paul knew about Jesus and after he was saved he knew who Jesus was. His writing use the truths of Jesus.

That is not drawing from His prayer.

Changing the Bible is serious. There are verses that say that whoever changes a word in the BIble will be accursed.

Justification is very different from sanctification. So JS changed the entire meaning of the verse by doing that.
 
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withwonderingawe

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The point of this thread is to ascertain why W. John Walsh believed that the BOM does a better job of explaining how a person comes to Christ than any other book. So far Alma 34 and 42 were presented as a defense to that bold statement. I did not find the verses quoted to be concise; rather I found them to generate more questions.

What I see is that without the guidance of the LDS Church in teaching the precepts the BOM would not convey any clearer message. In other words, if you are taught a scripture means something more than what the grammar shows then you would not find the meaning there.

I believe such a bold statement such as that of Mr. Walsh made deserves an answer.

You said; So far Alma 34 and 42 were presented as a defense to that bold statement. I did not find the verses quoted to be concise; rather I found them to generate more questions.

So let’s move on, remember you asked for it


King Benjamin’s Unprofitable Servant sermon (Mosiah 1-4)

“I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants….And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.”

He then says

“Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

40 O, all ye old men, and also ye young men, and you little children who can understand my words, for I have spoken plainly unto you that ye might understand, I pray that ye should awake to a remembrance of the awful situation of those that have fallen into transgression.

41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.

Then he tells them of a vision he had where an angel appeared unto him

“5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

10 And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.

12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ…..

16 And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.

17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

In the next chapter he goes on

5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state—

6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—

7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.

8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

10 And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them.

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.

12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

He goes on but I suppose that is enough from him.
 
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withwonderingawe

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And now from Abinadi in Mosiah 16

1 And now, it came to pass that after Abinadi had spoken these words he stretched forth his hand and said: The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgmentsare just.

2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.

3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.

4 Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.

5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnalnature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was noredemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is thedevil an enemy to God.

6 And now if Christ had not come into the world, speaking of things to come as though they had already come, there could have been no redemption.

7 And if Christ had not risen from the dead, or have broken the bands of death that the grave should have no victory, and that death should have no sting, there could have been no resurrection.

8 But there is a resurrection, therefore the grave hath no victory, and the sting of death is swallowed up in Christ.

9 He is the light and the life of the world; yea, a light that is endless, that can never be darkened; yea, and also a life which is endless, that there can be no more death.

10 Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and thiscorruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil—

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life andhappiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endlessdamnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation—

12 Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.

13 And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?

14 Therefore, if ye teach the law of Moses, also teach that it is a shadow of those things which are to come—

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.
 
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