The Marriage Debate

blackribbon · Feb 6, 2016

William67 said:
And married men live longer because their wives make them get health checkups and such. It isn't because of "marital bliss", but rather them getting more healthcare.

Neither link said men live longer....it said they were happier.

William67 · Feb 6, 2016

blackribbon said:
This is incredibly true. I come from a social group where women did do the stay-at-home mother role. We all felt privileged to be able to stay at home and raise our own kids. However, although I was the primary bread winner at the beginning of our marriage so that my husband could return to school and finish his degree, when he died it had been so long since I had a paying job (plenty of volunteer jobs that didn't count) that I had "no work experience" and even after graduating magna cum laude, it was difficult to find a person even willing to interview me. (Ironically, I have floated to a floor in my hospital that wouldn't interview me but even as a disoriented float nurse, I got a "praises" report turned in on me from one of my patients that night). I also have a friend whose "good Christian" husband suddenly decided to cheat on her (she wasn't pretty enough anymore) and then he hid money from her in bank accounts without her name, so although she was a successful paralegal before she was married, she now had no paid work experience in over 20 years. Luckily, the family financial planner was a strong Christian and protected her rights including finding out that she had enough money to live without working if she lived as frugally as she did all the years she was married...and truthfully, she lives better now that he isn't controlling her finances.

To assume that all women are evil .... especially those that aren't perfect and have made mistakes such as marrying men who have failed at their role of Christian husband and provider...is as ridiculous to assume as that all men are mortally flawed and worthless. Judge the individual on the fruits of their current life...and I don't mean the patients that tell me they have quit smoking only to identify that they "quit" two days ago when they started puking their brains out ... but rather focus on the ones who quit 20 years ago and have been clean since without any urges to return.

If you think my view on women is bad, I positively praise them compared to what I think of most men. But since I'm not twisted in that way, I only concern myself with the woman who could become my future wife.

And have you done a ride along with a lifesaving crew? Those guys, and cops, get to see how truly vile people are.

And that may be the reason I am so adamant about finding a "good girl". I don't want anything like that to touch my family and I was an EMT when I was young. I thought I would make a career of it, but when you see some of the things I saw, you burn out really, really quickly.

William67 · Feb 6, 2016

blackribbon said:
So marry a teacher or an accountant....most women do not wear their joints out earning a living. Like I said, I am in one of the few jobs that really does do that to women. And since you are not yet 50, you really aren't old enough to have any real old age diagnoses yet but that doesn't mean you are immune...even from heart disease. Are you lucky enough to be one of the few men who doesn't have high blood pressure...because that is a cardiovascular disease? I don't either...or at least yet, but my life is so stressful that I am going to have to accept it is time consider that it might be something I have to deal with. My grandmother died at age 94. She did have heart disease and even "died" on her way to the hospital in her 70's where they put in a pacemaker. She lived independently until the last two years of her life...even after my grandfather passed away at age 96.

Actually I don't have high blood pressure. The closest thing to a disease I have is a touch of arthritis. My great grandmother died of cancer at the age of 101, in 1982. Same with my great grandmother. She lived independently after my great-grandfathers death in 1936. She said she didn't want another man because no man could live up to him. She was my maternal great-grandmother. My maternal grandfather's mother. My great-grandfather was born in 1872 and died at age 64 of prostate cancer...which is why I have the "old dude" tests regularly. Same cause of death for my maternal grandfather. I get the tests because, even though I didn't inherit his Y-chromosome, there is still and increased chance. My father's side doesn't have a cancer "inheritance". But they do have a high rate of heart disease, which is why I have my heart checked yearly. I'm very proactive in regards to my health and I don't drink, which all of them did.

Even my brother Tony drank, which is what I think destroyed his liver.

blackribbon · Feb 6, 2016

William67 said:
If you think my view on women is bad, I positively praise them compared to what I think of most men. But since I'm not twisted in that way, I only concern myself with the woman who could become my future wife.

And have you done a ride along with a lifesaving crew? Those guys, and cops, get to see how truly vile people are.

And that may be the reason I am so adamant about finding a "good girl". I don't want anything like that to touch my family and I was an EMT when I was young. I thought I would make a career of it, but when you see some of the things I saw, you burn out really, really quickly.

I have not lived a life that is immune from these people and even worked in a hospital that was in the middle of a "vile" neighborhood...so those are the people that landed on my floor and like a professional, I treated them with the respect and dignity that every one of God's children deserves even after making bad decision that land them in hospitals. I get drug addicted patients (and the life-styles that go with them) all the time even in my "nice" hospital...and I work on a "women's" unit so the messy cases that have to do with female issues are all ours. I personally have a different take that you do...I see value in every person that I meet regardless of their life choices or hardships. And I also am a trained mental health inpatient nurse, so I get to work with a different kind of patient who is often at their all time low when they arrive for care on that floor. Again, I consider it my privilege to care for God's forgotten people and hope that through my compassion and caring they will see a bit of Jesus. I do not share your disgust for people in general. And sad to say, you seem to only see the two extremes of society...not the normal and majority of people who fall somewhere in between.

William67 · Feb 6, 2016

blackribbon said:
Neither link said men live longer....it said they were happier.

Believe it or not, but I am generally a really happy person. I just have very strong beliefs regarding certain things.

LoveDivine · Feb 6, 2016

Christ did not despise sinners. There is the perfect balance of upholding a high moral standard and loving those that are sinful. It is very difficult for many Christians to maintain this balance. The tendency is to go to either extreme. If we all spent more time pondering how wretched we are and how unworthy of God's grace the less likely we would be to start threads like this.

William67 · Feb 6, 2016

blackribbon said:
I have not lived a life that is immune from these people and even worked in a hospital that was in the middle of a "vile" neighborhood...so those are the people that landed on my floor and like a professional, I treated them with the respect and dignity that every one of God's children deserves even after making bad decision that land them in hospitals. I get drug addicted patients (and the life-styles that go with them) all the time even in my "nice" hospital...and I work on a "women's" unit so the messy cases that have to do with female issues are all ours. I personally have a different take that you do...I see value in every person that I meet regardless of their life choices or hardships. And I also am a trained mental health inpatient nurse, so I get to work with a different kind of patient who is often at their all time low when they arrive for care on that floor. Again, I consider it my privilege to care for God's forgotten people and hope that through my compassion and caring they will see a bit of Jesus. I do not share your disgust for people in general. And sad to say, you seem to only see the two extremes of society...not the normal and majority of people who fall somewhere in between.

We were called in to an abuse case by the police and children's services. When we arrived, we found 3 extremely malnourished children, two of whom where chained up outside in doghouses, and the children were covered in feces. The oldest, a girl of about 10, who was the size of a 6 year old, was allowed inside because she was old enough to do some work. She walked with a limp because she had spilled some coffee on "daddy" and he had kicked her several times, breaking her leg. "Daddy" had reset her leg himself, but had done a bad job of it. Bad job isn't the correct description. The piece of crap should have been taken out and shot repeatedly. It is a miracle that the girl didn't die. The youngest child couldnt even speak, even though he was 5. There was no record of the children's births. There was no running water or electricity in the home.

I began having dreams about killing people like "daddy", so I had to quit.

William67 · Feb 6, 2016

YankeeGirl said:
Christ did not despise sinners. There is the perfect balance of upholding a high moral standard and loving those that are sinful. It is very difficult for many Christians to maintain this balance. The tendency is to go to either extreme. If we all spent more time pondering how wretched we are and how unworthy of God's grace the less likely we would be to start threads like this.

I don't despise sinners. I just choose not to wallow with them or condone their sin. And I started this thread because silence means consent in this case.

redblue22 · Feb 6, 2016

William67 said:
I don't despise sinners. I just choose not to wallow with them or condone their sin. And I started this thread because silence means consent in this case.

Are you not one of them?

blackribbon · Feb 6, 2016

William67 said:
Actually I don't have high blood pressure. The closest thing to a disease I have is a touch of arthritis. My great grandmother died of cancer at the age of 101, in 1982. Same with my great grandmother. She lived independently after my great-grandfathers death in 1936. She said she didn't want another man because no man could live up to him. She was my maternal great-grandmother. My maternal grandfather's mother. My great-grandfather was born in 1872 and died at age 64 of prostate cancer...which is why I have the "old dude" tests regularly. Same cause of death for my maternal grandfather. I get the tests because, even though I didn't inherit his Y-chromosome, there is still and increased chance. My father's side doesn't have a cancer "inheritance". But they do have a high rate of heart disease, which is why I have my heart checked yearly. I'm very proactive in regards to my health and I don't drink, which all of them did.

Even my brother Tony drank, which is what I think destroyed his liver.

Many of the 'old dude' tests just identify cancer but you aren't even at the normal age to get prostate cancer, yet. And the treatment has its own consequences that would matter to a younger new wife...but only something to consider if you decide to marry someone of childbearing age.

Good for you on the blood pressure...that is good genes and the evidence of good living. My borderline hypertension is the consequence of my husband's cancer and death (it was always low normal before he went into the hospital that last time) and nursing school/nursing/single motherhood. I keep hoping that if I can find a way to reduce the stress in even one area, it will go back down to acceptable levels (and has done it for short periods of time when my stress level did drop temporarily).

I am basically the poster child for "good girl" but won't meet your unrealistic expectations and wouldn't be interested in a man who thought I had to be perfect. My joints were given a workout when I was younger and both did and coached gymnastics...and now, they are getting a new workout as a nurse....so I can't place any guarantees on what my body will do in a few years. I know I suffer from some compassion fatigue which appears when people who are not that sick whine and cry about their "poor" lives so I may not always sound as compassionate as people think I should be (but they forget that I have cared for people who literally are dying and having pieces of their body rotting off or trying to figure out how to raise teenager as a single mother with stage 4 cancer so doesn't have the "luxury" of being able to die).

Maybe I take your judgement of Christian women who are struggling to survive too personally...especially since I have nothing vested in you liking me. But it is spiritually discouraging to see that there are men who would reject women like me, or worse, my Christian girlfriends who have been cheated on by their husbands, as "harlots" and "untrustworthy" for the simple fact that we were married and are not perfect. In a world that doesn't value single mothers at all, it is hard enough to remember that Jesus doesn't judge with the same criteria as many Christians do. I know it is hard enough to go to church where I am considered a second-class woman for not being married at this age.

William67 · Feb 6, 2016

redblue22 said:
Are you not one of them?

I have sinned a great deal. But I have never sinned against my own flesh.

LoveDivine · Feb 6, 2016

William67 said:
I don't despise sinners. I just choose not to wallow with them or condone their sin. And I started this thread because silence means consent in this case.

Condoning sin is quite different from extending compassion and grace to those who have sinned. I am not saying you are obligated to marry anyone. At the same time, the words you have you used in this post don't reflect well on you. As we mature in Christ we grow in grace and humility. Honestly, your attitude in these posts is not that dissimilar to the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son. You have openly admitted in other threads your own violent past. How would you feel if you logged in and one of the women of CF started a thread on men with violent pasts not ever deserving trust or fatherhood. There was no need for you to start this thread at all. This isn't constructive advice or even an exhortation to others on Cf to live more Godly. All your post does is offend people and reinforce the stereotype that Conservative Christians are harsh.

SnowyMacie · Feb 6, 2016

William67 said:
But I have never sinned against my own flesh.

That doesn't make you better than them.

Gnarwhal · Feb 6, 2016

YankeeGirl said:
Condoning sin is quite different from extending compassion and grace to those who have sinned. I am not saying you are obligated to marry anyone. At the same time, the words you have you used in this post don't reflect well on you. As we mature in Christ we grow in grace and humility. Honestly, your attitude in these posts is not that dissimilar to the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son. You have openly admitted in other threads your own violent past. How would you feel if you logged in and one of the women of CF started a thread on men with violent pasts not ever deserving trust or fatherhood. There was no need for you to start this thread at all. This isn't constructive advice or even an exhortation to others on Cf to live more Godly. All your post does is offend people and reinforce the stereotype that Conservative Christians are harsh.

William is straight out of the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18:9-14), obviously he's the former and not the latter but I don't think I need to point that out to anybody.

William67 · Feb 6, 2016

YankeeGirl said:
Condoning sin is quite different from extending compassion and grace to those who have sinned. I am not saying you are obligated to marry anyone. At the same time, the words you have you used in this post don't reflect well on you. As we mature in Christ we grow in grace and humility. Honestly, your attitude in these posts is not that dissimilar to the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son. You have openly admitted in other threads your own violent past. How would you feel if you logged in and one of the women of CF started a thread on men with violent pasts not ever deserving trust or fatherhood. There was no need for you to start this thread at all. This isn't constructive advice or even an exhortation to others on Cf to live more Godly. All your post does is offend people and reinforce the stereotype that Conservative Christians are harsh.

I would agree with them. I don't deserve trust or fatherhood and I wouldn't blame them for feeling that way. I understand my nature and that only through the Grace of God am I still alive or not in prison. I have no delusions about my righteousness, because I have none.

I'm not saying that women with a promiscuous past don't deserve to get married, unless they were married before and committed adultery. I'm just saying that I, personally, do not want a wife with a past. With that kind of baggage.

I have no preferences with regards to her appearance. She could be tall or short, heavy or thin (as long as she was healthy), beautiful or unattractive. Those things are of no importance. But to me, who she is and who she was is important. Her moral background. These are my preferences and I don't demand that everyone believe the same as I.

Maybe I just haven't been explaining it in enough detail. When you marry, you become one flesh. I believe that there is nothing that God doesn't know. He knows to whom, and even if, I will ever marry. If when you marry you are of one flesh, I believe that I am already her flesh and she mine. So, I have abstained from defiling what is tantamount to our flesh. To have sex would not only be a sin against God, it would be a sin against her, as well. I have believed this since I hit puberty.

William67 · Feb 6, 2016

TX_Matt said:
That doesn't make you better than them.

It makes me undefiled in that area.

Sketcher · Feb 6, 2016

William67 said:
I don't despise sinners. I just choose not to wallow with them or condone their sin. And I started this thread because silence means consent in this case.

You're making it sound like you do.

Look, I get righteous anger at perceived and actual injustices. I get the value of saving one's self for marriage, and marrying someone who did the same. I get that sex uniquely makes two people one flesh, and that has consequences for people who do not follow God's instructions for keeping it within marriage. I get that forgiveness does not equal the removal of such consequences. I get that value as someone to date is different from value of a person to God and in the church. I get that too often, people in the church blur the lines that separate them. But I don't see how this rant of yours (or frankly any of the ones from the last few days) has begun to right any of the wrongs or heal any of the wounds that you have either explicitly stated or merely alluded to. I don't see how it has drawn anyone closer to the truth of God, or helped them understand his truth and his grace. I don't see how it will move people away from wishful thinking, or from false beliefs about Biblical sexual morality. This is nothing more than a classic case of the anger of man not producing the righteousness of God.

LoveDivine · Feb 6, 2016

Sketcher said:
You're making it sound like you do.

Look, I get righteous anger at perceived and actual injustices. I get the value of saving one's self for marriage, and marrying someone who did the same. I get that sex uniquely makes two people one flesh, and that has consequences for people who do not follow God's instructions for keeping it within marriage. I get that forgiveness does not equal the removal of such consequences. I get that value as someone to date is different from value of a person to God and in the church. I get that too often, people in the church blur the lines that separate them. But I don't see how this rant of yours (or frankly any of the ones from the last few days) has begun to right any of the wrongs or heal any of the wounds that you have either explicitly stated or merely alluded to. I don't see how it has drawn anyone closer to the truth of God, or helped them understand his truth and his grace. I don't see how it will move people away from wishful thinking, or from false beliefs about Biblical sexual morality. This is nothing more than a classic case of the anger of man not producing the righteousness of God.

Exactly. This thread reeks of bitterness and resentment towards women.

William67 · Feb 6, 2016

Sketcher said:
You're making it sound like you do.

Look, I get righteous anger at perceived and actual injustices. I get the value of saving one's self for marriage, and marrying someone who did the same. I get that sex uniquely makes two people one flesh, and that has consequences for people who do not follow God's instructions for keeping it within marriage. I get that forgiveness does not equal the removal of such consequences. I get that value as someone to date is different from value of a person to God and in the church. I get that too often, people in the church blur the lines that separate them. But I don't see how this rant of yours (or frankly any of the ones from the last few days) has begun to right any of the wrongs or heal any of the wounds that you have either explicitly stated or merely alluded to. I don't see how it has drawn anyone closer to the truth of God, or helped them understand his truth and his grace. I don't see how it will move people away from wishful thinking, or from false beliefs about Biblical sexual morality. This is nothing more than a classic case of the anger of man not producing the righteousness of God.

Because no one seems to take sexual immorality seriously anymore. Its as if everyone is saying, "everyone has sex, get over it". I struck me reading the bad boys thread that a lot of people were saying, "well girls want bad boys when theyre young, but when they grow up, they want a good man". Well, it doesn't work that way. If you want a "good man" you need to be a "good woman".

And you may not like my rant, but as long as people keep quiet and "go along", nothing will change. Sometimes you need to stand up and say, "Just because you can be forgiven your sins doesn't mean there aren't real world consequences for improper actions".

redblue22 · Feb 6, 2016

so you desire to feel the full impact of your own sins?

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