What is the purpose of going to church?

Arsenios said:

, or perhaps you could find a Bishop who would give you the ekonomia needed for your particular circumstances...

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In the end it destroyed my faith in the Church, to be frank. It just unmasked the legalism and moralism behind much of what passes for spirituality there. I never claimed to be living a good orthodox Christian life, to be held up as an example- I was willing to sacrifice that much. I did not expect a medal (or an akathist?). But, I did expect compassion- we live in a broken world and none of us escapes that brokenness, we all need each other to be whole. And that's what I focus on now days spiritually, valuing the good relationships I do have and not pining away for what I don't have.

tz620q said:

I don't know you and could easily be wrong; but statistically, you are indicative of a large problem. Many people work to evangelize Catholics out of the Catholic Church. They are successful for many; but there is an even larger group that having their Catholic faith destroyed just become unchurched. If you look at Ex-Catholics, the unchurched group is much bigger than the number that switched to a different church.

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I am not surprised...

We do have a new enquirer at our Mission Church who is currently RC... Claims it took 75 years to decide to become Orthodox... And is here to stay... We'll see... I believe its the truth...

Pelican, the great Protestant historian, became Orthodox at the end of his life...

The best one in my book was a great Latin Scholar who, in his later years, got diagnosed with cancer, and became Orthodox immediately, saying that the RCC is the better Church for the living, but when it comes time to die, one wants to be Orthodox!

But for most, when an Apostolic Church, whether Latin or Orthodox, fails in its mission to disciple the faithful, and they fall away, they normally just fall away, without running to another Church... Ours are that way, and we simply pray them back into the Church as best we can - We give then the experience of full participation in the Life of the Church as kids, and when they go prodigal, we pray that when they are spiritually starving, they will remember their Father's House, and turn back for solace and nurture and nourishment...

Not all do...

Arsenios

It looks like Protestants should make a greater effort to make a place for ex-Catholics.

Dale said:

It looks like Protestants should make a greater effort to make a place for ex-Catholics.

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This reminded me of a Dilbert I once read where Dogbert confronted a very by-the-book accountant who was holding Dilbert in Hell for an error in an expense report. Dogbert turned his baseball cap around the wrong way and the accountant's head explodes. In the next panel, you see Dogbert and Dilbert walking out of Hell and Dilbert says, "What was that popping sound I heard?" Dogbert says, "Paradigm shifting without a clutch."

To some degree, the Protestant paradigm and the Catholic paradigm is incommensurable. That is an odd thing to say about two Christian groups; but not that hard to understand if we acknowledge that the Protestant movement was started in opposition to Catholicism and to this day is really only defined in that opposition.

tz620q said:

This reminded me of a Dilbert I once read where Dogbert confronted a very by-the-book accountant who was holding Dilbert in Hell for an error in an expense report. Dogbert turned his baseball cap around the wrong way and the accountant's head explodes. In the next panel, you see Dogbert and Dilbert walking out of Hell and Dilbert says, "What was that popping sound I heard?" Dogbert says, "Paradigm shifting without a clutch."

To some degree, the Protestant paradigm and the Catholic paradigm is incommensurable. That is an odd thing to say about two Christian groups; but not that hard to understand if we acknowledge that the Protestant movement was started in opposition to Catholicism and to this day is really only defined in that opposition.

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The EOC in Constantinople preferred takeover by the Turks rather than submission to Rome...

But we still had the Church...

The Protestants were left rudderless...

Children of Rome fleeing their abusive Parent...

And you are right - They are still fleeing...

Arsenios

There are three reasons.

• First and second, there are two parts to the Mass

• Third, Paul says not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, but to gather to exhort one another. We need to reach out with compassion, raise each others' spirits, and give to the needy. Hebrews 10:25
• EDIT -- I forgot one other thing. You gotta go for the donuts.

Dale said:

It looks like Protestants should make a greater effort to make a place for ex-Catholics.

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It seems to me that you make too great a place for them. Most evangelical churches pick up poorly catechized Catholics who don't even know Catholic teachings themselves, and tell them a bunch of horrible lies about the Catholic Church -- no wonder they turn into rabid anti-Catholics. Why can't they do what Billy Graham did, and help them into a richer intimate relationship with Christ, but send them back to their home church?? It's not like they are claiming to be the One True Church.

Simon Belmont said:

We go to receive the Sacraments and to hear the Word proclaimed. We also go because each Sunday is a celebration of the Resurrection, and our Lord ought to be praised for conquering death & giving us life!

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I agree. I go to receive grace through receiving the precious Body and Blood of Jesus in Holy Communion. The Eucharist is the way that Jesus remains with us. He promised not to abandon us. I yearn to have more of his life within me. I am fed also on His word, but my relationship with Jesus is not just intellectual.

Open Heart said:

It seems to me that you make too great a place for them. Most evangelical churches pick up poorly catechized Catholics who don't even know Catholic teachings themselves, and tell them a bunch of horrible lies about the Catholic Church -- no wonder they turn into rabid anti-Catholics. Why can't they do what Billy Graham did, and help them into a richer intimate relationship with Christ, but send them back to their home church?? It's not like they are claiming to be the One True Church.

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Hello open heart. I'm sorry that you've had a bad experience in this way. No-one should knowingly tell lies about another.

But one issue may be as you've said:

Most evangelical churches pick up poorly catechized Catholics who don't even know Catholic teachings themselves

Why are there so many poorly catechized Catholics about? I have many relatives and know others (coming from a Catholic background myself) who I would describe as nominal Catholics, seeing themselves as Catholic but you could not hold a spiritual conversation with them on any level.

I'm not getting at Catholics here, there are also a lot of nominal Protestants. People who had a skoosh of water on them as a baby and then think they're 'Christian'.

But the big issue is what is the Catholic Church doing to reach this mission field inside their own community?

Evangelical churches that say things about the RCC, is the existence of these nominal folks not living proof that some of what these evangelicals say is true? How can you be a member of a church for 80 years and not be one step nearer God after those eighty years? (I've met several Catholics in this category)

Don't misunderstand me, my grandmother was a a born again RCC and a lovely believing lady. But there are screeds of nominal Catholics about.

God Bless

I think one of the reasons to go to Church is to be equipped to go in peace to love and serve the Lord.

• worship
• teaching
• prayer
• community
• service
• the equipping of the saints

lismore said:

Hello open heart. I'm sorry that you've had a bad experience in this way. No-one should knowingly tell lies about another.

But one issue may be as you've said:

Most evangelical churches pick up poorly catechized Catholics who don't even know Catholic teachings themselves

Why are there so many poorly catechized Catholics about? I have many relatives and know others (coming from a Catholic background myself) who I would describe as nominal Catholics, seeing themselves as Catholic but you could not hold a spiritual conversation with them on any level.

I'm not getting at Catholics here, there are also a lot of nominal Protestants. People who had a skoosh of water on them as a baby and then think they're 'Christian'.

But the big issue is what is the Catholic Church doing to reach this mission field inside their own community?

Evangelical churches that say things about the RCC, is the existence of these nominal folks not living proof that some of what these evangelicals say is true? How can you be a member of a church for 80 years and not be one step nearer God after those eighty years? (I've met several Catholics in this category)

Don't misunderstand me, my grandmother was a a born again RCC and a lovely believing lady. But there are screeds of nominal Catholics about.

God Bless

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I can tell you exactly why there are so many poorly catechized Catholics! I know because I teach confirmation and pre-confirmation.

First of all, the Catholic Church puts most of its evangelistic energy into teaching its teens. You get your most basic stuff when you go through first communion, and then you get a fuller understanding during the two years prior to confirmation.

To be fair, Catholic churches offer Catechism classes (like Sunday School) every year of a child's life. But parents must pay for the materials. Some parents don't want to pay, and even more don't want to be bothered with transporting their kid back and forth, and meeting the other parental obligations, such as attending Mass each week. IOW kids from nominal parents get nominal educations. There simply is no substitute for having Catechism every year.

Then you have what I call, "the fog." Most kids just don't pay attention. Even if they learn the information one week, they have forgotten it by the next week, and quite honestly, there are a large minority that don't even absorb it the first week. They are on auto pilot, with minimal interaction. This is what I mean when I say poorly catechized. In this case its not because of problems with the teachers, who are doing great lessons. It's just not being received.

But I have to admit that sometimes it IS the fault of the teachers or of the entire parish, especially back in the 70;s. We lost an entire generation of Catholics to bad catechesis. There was just a lot of baloney books put out for a while that were "in the spirit of Vatican 2." Mostly this has been corrected, but you still find parishes here and there that are still in hippie-ville.

At my parish, the priest finally put his foot down. He was very upset that kids who were confirmed couldn't answer basic questions about the faith. BASIC questions. So we started giving a preconfirmation test for basic knowledge, and if a kid didn't pass it, they had to go through a preconfirmation year before they could go on to confirmation classes, and even then, they had to take the test again, to see if they needed to repeat the preconfirmation year.

This tended to catch virtually all the kids that hadn't been to Catechism since first communion. They couldn't make the sign of the cross, didn't know that Catholics were Christians or say what a Christian was, couldn't say the difference between the Old and New Testaments, couldn't say anything significant about the life of Jesus... well you get the idea.

We're halfway through the year, and about 1/3 of the preconfirmation kids have dropped out. I'd say half are really, really struggling.

Aino said:

I just though to ask you what people go to church for

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You mention all the good reasons to go to Church. It is supposed to be a time a drawing closer to Jesus and the brethren.

Truth Lover said:

I agree. I go to receive grace through receiving the precious Body and Blood of Jesus in Holy Communion. The Eucharist is the way that Jesus remains with us. He promised not to abandon us. I yearn to have more of his life within me. I am fed also on His word, but my relationship with Jesus is not just intellectual.

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This is what the earlier believers practised:

"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." (Acts 2.41-42)

faroukfarouk said:

This is what the earlier believers practised:
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." (Acts 2.42)

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The Greek has it thus:
And they were persevering:
1) in the teaching of the Apostles [It was one teaching]
2) and in the 'Breaking of the Bread' Communion
3) and in the Prayers.

This passage shows that there were prescribed prayers - THE Prayers -
And there was a koinonia (Communion) of the Breaking of the Bread - It was not mere fellowship and hanging out with fellow believers, but was the consecration of the Body and Blood of our Lord... And this was all the Apostolic Teaching -

Arsenios

fellowship with other christians.

but i think its enough to have fellowship with christians on internet.

jovanovic said:

fellowship with other christians.

but i think its enough to have fellowship with christians on internet.

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This passage is speaking of the Communion Service of the Church in the Consecration of the Gifts of the Body and the Blood of our Lord...

Internet fellowship is almost a self-contradiction, don't you think?

I mean, you have that cool parakeet as your avatar - Is he also yor pal who lands on your hand, climbs on your glasses, and eats your lettice and wants a sip of your coffee? How can you have THAT relationship with him or here on the internet?

May your Joy be Full!

Arsenios

Aino said:

Hey!
I just though to ask you what people go to church for: do you think that church is supposed to be the place where you hear good teaching, or do you go there for common worship, or is it a place where you believe you can serve Christ in the best way? Do you think only one of these aspects is enough to make a good church or is one supposed to be able to find it a suitable place for each of these, or even more things? And do you think that every christian ought to have a special service task at church or is it ok to just go and enjoy teaching and maybe tithe?

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No Christian has ever "gone to church" in the history of the faith.

The church meets in their house as scripture teaches. The church is the body of Christ not a physical building or organization of man

consider...

Gods Order in the body of Christ

LoveofTruth said:

The church is the body of Christ not a physical building or organization of man

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As the Nicene Creed tells us, the Church is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.
Yes, the church is the People of God, but also catholic (which means universal) organization founded on the apostles.
Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.
Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus.
Apostolic succession continued through the ordination of presbyters (priests) and bishops. Titus 1:5-9 *For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious. For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.
The Apostles replaced Judas as an apostle.
Acts 1:20, 26 "For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take....26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."(KJV)
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans Chapter 8 says. "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

LoveofTruth said:

No Christian has ever "gone to church" in the history of the faith.

The church meets in their house as scripture teaches. The church is the body of Christ not a physical building or organization of man

consider...

Gods Order in the body of Christ

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This is just a big bunch of baloney, a manipulation of words. Christians "do not forsake the assembling of [ourselves] together" for the breaking of bread. In the early days of the church this was in the homes of wealthier people who had gigantic rooms. When congregations outgrew this, basilicas began to be built. Today we assemble in church buildings designed to create an atmosphere of the transcendent. All of these options meet the criteria of assembling together.

Aino said:

Hey!
I just though to ask you what people go to church for: do you think that church is supposed to be the place where you hear good teaching, or do you go there for common worship, or is it a place where you believe you can serve Christ in the best way? Do you think only one of these aspects is enough to make a good church or is one supposed to be able to find it a suitable place for each of these, or even more things? And do you think that every christian ought to have a special service task at church or is it ok to just go and enjoy teaching and maybe tithe?

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Hebrews 10

25 And forsake not the assembling of yourself together, as the manner of some is, but encourage one another, and so much the more, as you see the day approaching.

Ephesians 5

19 " ... be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord,

20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3

16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.

17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.