If women shouldn't speak at all in church....

FoundInGrace

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I look at it that its shameful if a woman ends up having to teach/preach because the men in that church obviously havent stepped up and taken responsibility. Its shameful for the men because it shows them up if a woman has to do what they should be doing. I have no problem with women preaching but if no men are prepared to step up and preach and take responsibility for helping lead and teach from the scriptures then yes it is shaming to the men.
 
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FoundInGrace

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So many men dont take responsibility to teach even their own families in the ways of the Lord and leave it for the women to do it. Even look at Timothy whose grandmother and mothers faith was mentioned but not his grandfather or fathers. The shame is on the men not the women if a woman has to fill the gap so to speak.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I look at it that its shameful if a woman ends up having to teach/preach because the men in that church obviously havent stepped up and taken responsibility. Its shameful for the men because it shows them up if a woman has to do what they should be doing. I have no problem with women preaching but if no men are prepared to step up and preach and take responsibility for helping lead and teach from the scriptures then yes it is shaming to the men.

I disagree because it is specifically in the Bible that women are not to be pastor/teachers.
 
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ToBeLoved

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So many men dont take responsibility to teach even their own families in the ways of the Lord and leave it for the women to do it. Even look at Timothy whose grandmother and mothers faith was mentioned but not his grandfather or fathers. The shame is on the men not the women if a woman has to fill the gap so to speak.

There may be those situations. But I guess a man should always be brought in to pray or take some responsibility, if possible.
 
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FoundInGrace

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There may be those situations. But I guess a man should always be brought in to pray or take some responsibility, if possible.

I'm talking about where there is a man there but he doesnt teach his kids from the Bible or read it probably but professes to be a believer.. basically he signs out of any responsibility but the mother wants her kids to know God so she becomes the spiritual leader even of the man because maybe he is a new believer and just doesnt know enough unless he just cant be bothered. I dont think God would have an issue with the woman stepping or else the kids and the man just wont learn or grow in the things of God.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I'm talking about where there is a man there but he doesnt teach his kids from the Bible or read it probably but professes to be a believer.. basically he signs out of any responsibility but the mother wants her kids to know God so she becomes the spiritual leader even of the man because maybe he is a new believer and just doesnt know enough unless he just cant be bothered. I dont think God would have an issue with the woman stepping or else the kids and the man just wont learn or grow in the things of God.

I get what you are saying. The mother than does need to take on that role for the family.
 
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AnneY

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The subject of women pastors is a different topic, so I'll just stick to the topic at hand which is women speaking in the church (teaching/talking/existing). In the New Testament there are a few examples of women being active in the church or a ministry of the church. The most well-known would be Priscilla. She and her husband Aquila were a team, you see both of their names side by side as they ministered in church, while traveling/working with Paul, and teaching Apollos about Scripture. Apollos was a highly learned, intelligent man, but he listened and learned from both Priscilla and Aquila. Surely if women were supposed to be silent in the church/not step foot in church/not help teach men, then Priscilla may not have been even mentioned...but she was, and Paul seemed proud of both of them for their hard work.

Acts 18:24-26
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Priscilla ministered alongside her husband, active in teaching and whatever other ministry they had. She was obviously welcomed to do more than just set foot in the church, she was an active member and teacher.
 
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SkyWriting

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If women shouldn't speak at all in church,

Paul was talking to a particular church and women speaking out of turn were a problem
in that particular church. If it was a universal edict, it would have been repeated elswhere.
 
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Witness2016

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Paul indicated that women prayed and prophecied ( whatever this meant ) in Church and so the silence isn't total. I find it interesting though that we dismiss the head covering order so easiliy when it seems to be important.

1Co 11:5 KJV But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
...
As it is written, KJV "1 Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head."
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Speaking about men not woman .
 
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Witness2016

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As it is written, KJV "1 Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head."
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Speaking about men not woman .
I see what you are talking about, the Woman, Paul is speaking of protection as the husband is her covering
verse 3 1Corinthians 11 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

These are married females, head covering showed they were married and respected and honoured their husbands,)as commanded to do as unto the Lord) and respected man's authority in the church and that she was with a godly loving heart. Woman still today talk too much in church! Paul needed the wives to place their questions on paper and give to their husbands to encourage them to research stuff, ( they usually by nature want to be the hero of new found mysteries to present to the wife lol) . Asking him, would get him into fellowship with other husbands and men of leadership and having a tender brotherly friendship and love for each other. Men need to be motivated by their inquiring wives, that is their job anyway, to be their encourage and cheer leader .... I suppose the head covering may have also been for those also that were widowed to symbolize the headship of the male Leadership that was shepherding over and watch over them (her) in which ever way God ordained them to. She is /was to show she submitted to their authority, it was a form of respect which is a nice heart to teach the younger girls... a wonderful act of faith for certain... One just has to Love Paul...what a Wonderful Brother we have in Paul...
 
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Hello! :) Here is quote from gotquestions:
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3–5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.

So teaching children is okay because I've been too churches who do have women who lead the teaching curriculum it does not mean its taking over authority. As in schools most teachers are women any way! :) But in the church when it comes to expositing the Word then its best left to men. :) In a mixed home group if your doing bible study and each person has to do a study on it i don't see why us women need to be excluded. :(

I think the rule to follow is that if your not exercising spiritual authority over men such as in depth exposition of the Word then we are free to use our gifts with out restrictions! :) If the home group has a particular session where the word is taught like a pastor then its given to the men to lead. But if it just casual study where everyone can be involved then it should be perfectly okay. If we are not training them to be spiritual leaders and careful expositors then its no problem leading the group!

I think we should not be too dogmatic on it either and get all fired up on it. As long as we women are not pastor or take a position of spiritual authority then it should be fine. I understand the reason why men need to take this spiritual authority and why we need to follow.

But again don't don't take it too far like the orthodox jews with their regulations! :( Like as if it is a sin and you do anything of that kind well you will end in hell. We don't mentor men, we don't lead with spiritual authority over men concerning the preaching of God's Word. But we sure can have authority if we been abuse and we need to talk about that at church. Or raise as catholic and only brought out of it we sure can talk about this if the pastors wants to hear the story. I know one women who leads this on her blog because she has the experience of helping someone get out of this spiritual mess. It feels she has spiritual authority but its for things on religion not on preaching the Word. Where its about raising spiritual men so they can lead! That is why its so important that men lead because they were created to lead and shepherd! Why has not anyone care to explain this? But only that women are to shut up and men can talk as much as they want? This is what can sometime be mistaken that us women are just inferior so shut up! :(

So as i said if we women are not training them in spiritual authority and training them to be leaders of Gods flock such as pastors or elders. Then what ever we do bless us and don't condemn us saying, you are leading you can't do that! Step down! Like some military dominant men camp! Its not about male dominance but that is what is happening especially when the world sees that women can't preach. Just male over control! :(

How do we know we are becoming authoritative?
Just listen to charles spurgeon and ask yourself are you talking like him? If yes then you are to step down because this is not our spiritual role. Listen to John macarthur or even with the men conferences? That is how men exercise spiritual authority! :) And if your not doing anything like that then they should be no scolding from the men that we are doing something wrong because we are leading! :)

And even though this is not our role it does not mean we cannot lead in other areas because we all know that they are women who are leaders! Look at corrie ten boom? She went to church to church to talk about her experience and with authority, not authority on the Word & to led men but on her spiritual exp she went through! :)

And this from Matt Slick:
I do not see how assisting your husband in a Bible study is exercising any authority over people who might be present. So, I would think that you would be free to expound on Scripture the same as anyone else would be in a Bible study.

When I have taught Bible studies and my wife has been present, she has often added excellent insight into the Scriptures--as have other women. Her female perspective is often helpful, and I enjoy hearing what she has to say. But she is not exercising authority and/or teaching men (authoritatively) when explaining what she thinks a Scripture means. She is not acting as anelder or pastor.

Now, I believe that in 1 Tim. 2:12 when Paul says, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet," Paul is referring to the church context in the church office of elder. After all, 1 Tim. 3:15 says to Timothy, " . . . I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth." Paul is teaching us how the church is to be run, and the teaching issue deals with the authority structure in the church. Therefore, I see them related as does Paul: teach or exercise authority.

Of course, if we were to take the phrase, "not allow a woman to teach or excise authority over a man," and remove it from the context of elder and pastor, we would then need to require that all women never even express an opinion about Scripture whenever men are present. This would be, of course, ridiculous.

 
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ToBeLoved

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Acts 18:24-26
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Priscilla ministered alongside her husband, active in teaching and whatever other ministry they had. She was obviously welcomed to do more than just set foot in the church, she was an active member and teacher.
Women have always been able to teach other women and children. It is that they are not to teach men or head the church.
 
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AnneY

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I agree with the "not to head the church" part (or usurping authority in the church), but it's very clear in that passage that Priscilla ministered with her husband to teach Apollos - a man. Every mention of Priscilla in the Bible is with her alongside her husband (and every mention of Aquilla is paired with his wife, they are never mentioned separately). They were a team and worked together to teach people about Christ. So I don't think a husband wife team teaching both men and women in the church is wrong. Neither Priscilla or Aquilla were ever reprimanded for their teamwork teaching style, in fact they were praised by the exact same guy who wrote I Corinthians 14:34-35 about women keeping silence in the church. So, obviously Paul didn't think Priscilla was wrong to teach men when alongside her husband.
 
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ScottA

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If women shouldn't speak at all in church, not even to sing as the logical conclusion would be since singing is a fancy way of talking, nor should they even so much as ask for clarification on a topic of discussion, why should women even be so much as bodily present in the church, period?

Since they cannot interact during services (if Paul's words are to be taken at face value and literally without trying to make them say something different so as not to offend modern feminist opinions), they are really a distant presence there anyway, like furniture.

The church then is really only a place for men to interact in, not women. If women cannot even understand what is being taught, why are they even there to begin with? If the husband can teach doctrine at home, what is the point of women wasting pew space? They aren't really wanted there even by the logical implication of Paul's (and God's) own words.

Other than taking communion, I see no compelling reason why I as a woman should be required to attend church at all then (in fact I am being more obedient in not polluting it by interacting with it at all under the logical implication of this doctrine, as women will drag down the assembly due to being more prone to deception and usurping the authority of men, even by merely speaking any idea at all, which could easily come from Satan like with Eve. By not being there, I cannot possibly destroy the church ever with my naturally evil female tendencies if I simply stay at home and learn doctrine from a man outside the assembly entirely).

Some website online (I don't have the source now, sorry) argued that the word for ecclessica or assembly is male-only, and the church is indeed really only for men, and women aren't meant to have any influence there at all. Not to speak and not to vote, and of course, not to teach or hold any kind of position of authority.

Women speaking is shameful, and therefore, women being an active presence there is shameful too. If they *must* come, they should act like they don't exist while sitting there, taking God's Word logically, honestly, and literally. So, why should women be there at all? After all, they are more prone to deception and false teaching, and could be tempted to usurp the rightful authority of men even just by sitting there with their mere presence....I really ask this question for those who DON'T believe women should speak in church, ever, like Steve Anderson. However, other opinions are welcome...
The answer is...that Paul's ministry came at the same time the Holy Spirit came...and his words were meant spiritually: Meaning that, just as the church is referred to as the [female] bride of Christ, ALL mankind are considered "women." Therefore, the message is to mean, that no one merely born of a women (human kind / mankind) should speak for God.

The days of written Word [only] communication are over. The Word (from Paul) was spiritual.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Paul was talking to a particular church and women speaking out of turn were a problem
in that particular church. If it was a universal edict, it would have been repeated elswhere.
It was put in the Bible. That's a pretty good universal edict of what God wants.

Also, there were no women in leadership in any of the other Gentile churches started.
 
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Hello! :) Here is quote from gotquestions:
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3–5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.

So teaching children is okay because I've been too churches who do have women who lead the teaching curriculum it does not mean its taking over authority. As in schools most teachers are women any way! :) But in the church when it comes to expositing the Word then its best left to men. :) In a mixed home group if your doing bible study and each person has to do a study on it i don't see why us women need to be excluded. :(

I think the rule to follow is that if your not exercising spiritual authority over men such as in depth exposition of the Word then we are free to use our gifts with out restrictions! :) If the home group has a particular session where the word is taught like a pastor then its given to the men to lead. But if it just casual study where everyone can be involved then it should be perfectly okay. If we are not training them to be spiritual leaders and careful expositors then its no problem leading the group!

I think we should not be too dogmatic on it either and get all fired up on it. As long as we women are not pastor or take a position of spiritual authority then it should be fine. I understand the reason why men need to take this spiritual authority and why we need to follow.

But again don't don't take it too far like the orthodox jews with their regulations! :( Like as if it is a sin and you do anything of that kind well you will end in hell. We don't mentor men, we don't lead with spiritual authority over men concerning the preaching of God's Word. But we sure can have authority if we been abuse and we need to talk about that at church. Or raise as catholic and only brought out of it we sure can talk about this if the pastors wants to hear the story. I know one women who leads this on her blog because she has the experience of helping someone get out of this spiritual mess. It feels she has spiritual authority but its for things on religion not on preaching the Word. Where its about raising spiritual men so they can lead! That is why its so important that men lead because they were created to lead and shepherd! Why has not anyone care to explain this? But only that women are to shut up and men can talk as much as they want? This is what can sometime be mistaken that us women are just inferior so shut up! :(

So as i said if we women are not training them in spiritual authority and training them to be leaders of Gods flock such as pastors or elders. Then what ever we do bless us and don't condemn us saying, you are leading you can't do that! Step down! Like some military dominant men camp! Its not about male dominance but that is what is happening especially when the world sees that women can't preach. Just male over control! :(

How do we know we are becoming authoritative?
Just listen to charles spurgeon and ask yourself are you talking like him? If yes then you are to step down because this is not our spiritual role. Listen to John macarthur or even with the men conferences? That is how men exercise spiritual authority! :) And if your not doing anything like that then they should be no scolding from the men that we are doing something wrong because we are leading! :)

And even though this is not our role it does not mean we cannot lead in other areas because we all know that they are women who are leaders! Look at corrie ten boom? She went to church to church to talk about her experience and with authority, not authority on the Word & to led men but on her spiritual exp she went through! :)

And this from Matt Slick:
I do not see how assisting your husband in a Bible study is exercising any authority over people who might be present. So, I would think that you would be free to expound on Scripture the same as anyone else would be in a Bible study.

When I have taught Bible studies and my wife has been present, she has often added excellent insight into the Scriptures--as have other women. Her female perspective is often helpful, and I enjoy hearing what she has to say. But she is not exercising authority and/or teaching men (authoritatively) when explaining what she thinks a Scripture means. She is not acting as anelder or pastor.

Now, I believe that in 1 Tim. 2:12 when Paul says, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet," Paul is referring to the church context in the church office of elder. After all, 1 Tim. 3:15 says to Timothy, " . . . I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth." Paul is teaching us how the church is to be run, and the teaching issue deals with the authority structure in the church. Therefore, I see them related as does Paul: teach or exercise authority.

Of course, if we were to take the phrase, "not allow a woman to teach or excise authority over a man," and remove it from the context of elder and pastor, we would then need to require that all women never even express an opinion about Scripture whenever men are present. This would be, of course, ridiculous.

"And even though this is not our role it does not mean we cannot lead in other areas because we all know that they are women who are leaders!"

Yes!
Wives are to "oikodespoteo" (I Timothy 5:14).
It means to "rule the household" according to most reference works.
She is to "rule in domestic matters" (Weymouth's version).
And this is because a woman was made for man's "sake" (I Corinthians 11:9)
"therefore the woman ought to have authority over her head" (verse 10).
Her "head" is her spiritual head, her husband (verse 3).


1 Corinthians 11:10 (CEB) | Common English Bible
10 Because of this a woman should have authority over her head, because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 11:10 (DRA) | Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

10 Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 11:10 (ISV) | International Standard Version

10 This is why a woman should have authority over her own head: because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 11:10 (JUB) | Jubilee Bible 2000

10 For this cause the woman ought to have authority over her head: because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 11:10 (NIV) | New International Version

10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 11:10 (NIVUK) | New International Version -- UK

10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 11:10 (Concordant Version)
10 Therefore the woman ought to have authority over her head
because of the messengers.

 
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ToBeLoved

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I'm talking about where there is a man there but he doesnt teach his kids from the Bible or read it probably but professes to be a believer.. basically he signs out of any responsibility but the mother wants her kids to know God so she becomes the spiritual leader even of the man because maybe he is a new believer and just doesnt know enough unless he just cant be bothered. I dont think God would have an issue with the woman stepping or else the kids and the man just wont learn or grow in the things of God.
I don't believe that a woman cannot teach other women and children.

From my understanding, the verse is specific to teaching in the church which would include men.

At home, a woman can teach her children.
 
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