No problem... I was just saying that we do believe all Jews and Gentile believers of MJ keep Torah, because that is why they became MJ, and yes, we all feel called to do so.
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Torah ~ What Is It? (MJ Only)
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I'm Jewish and I never felt called to observe Torah. It's sort of a covenant obligation. Scripture teaches that you can be cut off. For instance what did God almost do to Moses when he failed to circumcise his sons?
Maybe I'm trying to say more of covenant obligation. I'm not saying that me and my wife and kids observe cause if we don't we'll be cut off. We observe because that's what Jews do. Jews observe out of covenant obligation. Same with Messianic Jews. We know that observing won't bring eternal life because the Torah doesn't teach that. But we do know that eternal life is in Yeshua.
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Your reasons for observance are yours.. but you do observe.. that is all my point is. ... those who are Messianic observe Torah... not for eternal life because that is a free gift, but because we are imitators of Him, and observance brings its own blessings, spiritually, mentally, socially, and physically.
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pat34lee
Messianic
I was speaking about this post.
That's why it says what it says so that no one feels they must, that was the point of my whole post, sorry if it wasn't clear.
This, and the crock of waiting to be 'led' to follow the Torah is why most Christians don't.
The first thing that new believers should be taught is to learn Torah and prepare to follow
it.
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Go find "frogster" and "bugkiller" and learn about the extreme positions within Christian groups. Here is a thread in which they have posted. http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-pauls-issue-sin-or-the-law.7906340/
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pinacled
walking with the Shekinah
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Matthew 13:52
He said to them, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."
He said to them, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
Hi AbbaLove
You asked:Can we agree that the use of the word Torah in the new SOP is referring to the Torah(law) of Moses and the Torah(law) of the Tanakh--yes
and NOT the law(Torah) of the Spirit of Romans 8:2 .---yes
and NOT the law(Torah) of the Spirit of Romans 8:2 .---yes
The Torah that Messianics seek to follow is what Yeshua taught. A long while ago I made this chart based on Matthew 22:35-40 that helps explain what he was saying because it gets confusing when you speak about 'the law' so I believe we should go off of Yeshua's definition first and foremost, He is the Master, no?
Listed in with the parables in Matthew we find this, and remember Yeshua said the parables were for those who had ears to hear.
One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Yeshua replied:
“ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Yeshua replied:
“ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Thus we have Yeshua stating the v'ahavta et Adonai elohekha and the v'ahavta l'reakha kamokha (which are part of synagogue liturgy around the world)
Love G-d - Love your neighbor- This is the law of love
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If you're looking at it from a Jewish perspective Jews are sort of more obligated compared to being called too. There are various references in the Torah that imply a child of Israel 'will be cut off'. A non Jew can't be cut off from something they never been 'cut into'.
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So, will MJs ever be able to agree on SOP language? It does seem like some of us are talking out of both sides of our mouth/brain or on one hand this way and on the other hand that way . On one hand we interpret "Torah" that it's not a must that every Messianic Jew and Messianic Gentile is callled to follow Torah. Then on the other hand we interpret Torah as meaning that its essential that everyone follow the Torah of G-d. You have previously said that you interpret "Torah" to be the Torah of Moses which seems to be the general/usual understanding.Hi AbbaLove
Can we agree that the use of the word Torah in the new SOP is referring to the Torah(law) of Moses and the Torah(law) of the Tanakh--yes
and NOT the law(Torah) of the Spirit of Romans 8:2 .---yes
The Torah that Messianics seek to follow is what Yeshua taught. A long while ago I made this chart based on Matthew 22:35-40 that helps explain what he was saying because it gets confusing when you speak about 'the law' so I believe we should go off of Yeshua's definition first and foremost, He is the Master, no?
Listed in with the parables in Matthew we find this, and remember Yeshua said the parables were for those who had ears to hear.
One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Yeshua replied:
“ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Thus we have Yeshua stating the v'ahavta et Adonai elohekha and the v'ahavta l'reakha kamokha (which are part of synagogue liturgy around the world)
Love G-d - Love your neighbor- This is the law of love
View attachment 166800
View attachment 166801 Love is not a one way street, we give of ourselves and that part is of G-d. We do what G-d says is right before him (the right way to walk) which is love towards G-d and we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. This is Torah of love.
So, can we all agree that it's not a must that all Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles keep Torah, only those called to do so. OR can we agree that all Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles keep Torah, as all true Messianic Jews and all true Messianic Gentiles are called to keep the Torah of Moses. Should the language in the SOP be so vague so that MJs can have it both ways?
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Well not a must for a Jew per se but on the premise of being cut off. Paul was accused of teaching Jews not to observe Torah.
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Shimshon
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I didn't become a Messianic Jew because I believed I was called to keep the law. As a Jew by birth I became a 'Messianic' Jew because I was called by the Spirit of God to believe in Yeshua's testimony and witness, of God's witness about Him as Messiah. I don't believe Jews become Messianic because they feel called to observe the laws. We are born within the covenantal people of God to begin with. The law applied to us naturally by birth, and we have been in relationship with God through the law from birth, or conversion. What Messianic Jew have been called to is the testimony of Yeshua, that is what makes us 'Messianic' Jews. Not some calling to something we were born within already. No Messianic Jew I have ever met says he became MJ because of a draw to observe the laws given Moses. If they were Jewish to begin with they would already have had a relationship with God through Torah. The unique qualifier of a Messianic Jew is a Jewish person who has begun to believe in the testimony of Yeshua. Not a Jew who has begun to believe they should observe the law. That's an oxymoron. I was drawn to Messianic Judaism because I wanted to be around other Jews who believed in the testimony of Messiah Yeshua, as we remain Jewish in our faith. I wanted to enjoy the Jewish revival that was apparently being realized in our generation. Motivated largely by the rebirth of Israel in our time. I desired to be part of a movement within the Jewish people who were returning to faith in Yeshua as the original apostles had testified and witnessed about. Torah observance was/is not my draw...."remaining" part of the Jewish community while professing faith in Yeshua's testimony is. I do not believe Yeshua's testimony was to return us to that which we were already apart of. I believe he calls us into our redeemed future.
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Exactly. The message is to preach about redemption in Messiah to the ends of the earth.
To get on track this thread is about Torah observance and I've said and you agree Jews are 'born' into the Mosaic covenant to begin with. We aren't necessarily called per se. However corporately there's a covenant obligation if that's the right way to explain it. And it doesn't have to do with redemption in Messiah. The covenant obligation I'm referring too doesn't pertain to eternal life.
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
Yet there are many, many Messianic Jews today who were brought up nominally in Judaism and admit they really didn't become observant till they came to know Messiah, usually through a Christian leading them to him. They were like Christians born Christians that only go to church on Easter and Christmas because that is what they grew up with,, same for many Jews who only show up at Temple on the High Holy Days.
Gentiles that want to 'become' Messianic is because they feel drawn to follow the Messiah, do what he did, keep the commands as he did, not substitute Easter for Passover etc. It really is more of a first century Messianic Judaism which it was before they got named Christians. So they want to be like the apostles of old, of the first century and join to the Jewish people to do so.
Gentiles that want to 'become' Messianic is because they feel drawn to follow the Messiah, do what he did, keep the commands as he did, not substitute Easter for Passover etc. It really is more of a first century Messianic Judaism which it was before they got named Christians. So they want to be like the apostles of old, of the first century and join to the Jewish people to do so.
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That's besides the point. The point is Jews are born into the covenant.
From a 1st century perspective it wasn't whether or not Jews should observe, it was whether or not if Gentiles needed to part of the covenant people's to receive and benefit from the testimony of Jesus. Cornelius wasn't part of the covenant people and received the Holy Spirit which Peter testified to the Jerusalem Council. It wasn't about Torah observance for Gentiles. It was 'receiving' the testimony of Jesus which included the Gentiles.
Being part of the Mosaic covenant and observing doesn't have to do with receiving the testimony of Jesus.
Being Messianic and being involved in Messianic Judaism are different. Messianics believe they are drawn to Messiah and as a result are drawn to the Torah. That's not the testimony of the Apostle's though and what the Apostle's preached. Paul preached about the fulfillment of Messiah. He went to the synagogues first and this is what he testified. He did the same thing with the Gentiles.
The issue that boggled the Jewish believers mind was how can Gentiles receive this redemption without being covenant memebers like us? We thought God was God to Israel only.
This is why I think it's a calling for Gentiles to observe not out of covenant obligation. The new covenant doesn't include Gentiles to begin with. As a result of redeemed Israel redemption comes to human kind.
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Can Messianics agree that the use of the word "Torah" in this MJ forum is adequately represented by this diagram?
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Absolutely yes!
Can Messianics agree that the use of the word "Torah" in this MJ forum is adequately represented by this diagram?
Torah means teachings and instructions of YHVH.
Moses received YHVH's teachings and instructions.
Yeshua's teachings and instructions were:
1. direct quotes or indirect confirmations that asserted, promoted, validated what Moses received,
2. clarifications and deeper understanding of what Moses received,
3. in no way ever contradicted what Moses received.
In our MJ forum, this is what we consider Torah.
IOW, everything meshes together in perfect harmony, especially when we properly understand Torah has not passed away, as Yeshua says:
Matthew 5:17-21
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
MOD HAT on
Sorry Guys I hate doing this but this thread is
being closed per directive because it is
focusing too much on the SOP discussion and staff
actions which is against the site rules.
If you have any questions about the SOP
please feel free to PM staff such as myself
Truthfrees or .Mikha'el.
Todah
MOD HAT OFF
Sorry Guys I hate doing this but this thread is
being closed per directive because it is
focusing too much on the SOP discussion and staff
actions which is against the site rules.
If you have any questions about the SOP
please feel free to PM staff such as myself
Truthfrees or .Mikha'el.
Todah
MOD HAT OFF
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