This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

brotherjerry said:

Um..no. It does mean chosen you got that part right. But the context of word in the sentence gives you the who chose (your "of God") part. And the purpose is also a different part of the sentence. But 'elect' in the Greek only means to chosen, or selected.

Greek word “eklektós” meaning “to call out or to choose.” Eklektós comes from two words: “Ek, meaning “out of” and the root word “légó,” which means “to call,” “to select” or “to choose.

Click to expand...

Yes, to select to be saved, no where does this word elect have to do with something other than salvation.
You're only going part of the way forward, your holding back on the meaning.
I reference to what though? God's calling to be saved. Do not imply that for that word 'elect' God intended another purpose in these verses outside of salvation. If you do that, you're misrepresenting what Christ, and Paul and the Holy Spirit are saying, just to pursue your own personal agenda (your opinion) over and above what these words are saying regarding election of God which means to obtain salvation in Jesus Christ.

If you do that it is deceitful in the extreme and another severe error.

sdowney717 said:

That word 'elect' means in the Greek, chosen of God for salvation.
Someone who is predestined, is of course then elect, since God has chosen to save them before they were born.
Here are some sayings of Jesus and Paul that should clearly expose this.

Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mark 13:22
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Luke 18:7
And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Click to expand...

In each of these verses the 'elect' is talking about born-again believers.

Also, can you check the Greek on each of these verses and list the word that has been translated to 'elect'?

sdowney717 said:

Yes, to select to be saved, no where does this word elect have to do with something other than salvation.

Click to expand...

You appear to be simply assuming that the definition of the Greek word translated as "elect" means chosen in respect to salvation.

I have challenged you to prove this, and another poster appears to have shown the word is not specific to the matter of salvation.

You should not be calling other people deceitful when it is you who is seemingly mistaken here.

Your argument is textbook circular reasoning. If, as I believe is the case, the Greek word “eklektós” simply means "choice", you cannot simply claim that it means "choice unto salvation".

Paul could, of course, use this word to argue that people are "elected" to salvation. But he could also use it to denote any of a billion other things God could "choose" to do.

You need to make a case that Paul uses this term in relation to salvation - you cannot simply assume that the very meaning of the word “eklektós” denotes election to salvation.

I am quite certain it does not.

sdowney717 said:

Yes, to select to be saved, no where does this word elect have to do with something other than salvation.

Click to expand...

Not true - Israel is described as God's "elect" or "chosen" in the Old Testament. If the concept of "election" is necessarily tied to salvation, we Gentiles are in hot water since Israel is clearly marked out as God's "elect" in the Old Testament.

But, happily, it is certainly not the case the concept of God "electing" is specific to the matter of salvation. Yes, God "elected" Israel but not in the sense of predestining every Jew to be saved.

Let me make it easy for some.
The word Elect is used 8 times in the New Testament. All 8 refer to the same Greek word. (It is Strongs 1588 for those that want to know).

Matthew 24:22
Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather togetherHis elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mark 13:20
Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:22
for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:27
And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
Luke 18:7
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Romans 8:33
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

not one of those mentions God electing certain people to be saved...it is in reference to Christians as a general elect, very similar to the use of elect in reference to Israel. So the ELECT went from the Jews being God's chosen people, to Christians being God's chosen people. And no where do we ever see God saying "You can be a Jew, you cannot, you can be a Jew, you cannot." It was always a matter of faith.

expos4ever said:

Not true - Israel is described as God's "elect" or "chosen" in the Old Testament. If the concept of "election" is necessarily tied to salvation, we Gentiles are in hot water since Israel is clearly marked out as God's "elect" in the Old Testament.

But, happily, it is certainly not the case the concept of God "electing" is specific to the matter of salvation. Yes, God "elected" Israel but not in the sense of predestining every Jew to be saved.

Click to expand...

Well your going very very shallow there.
Paul says like this about Israel.
Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called."
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

v6, says not all Israel are 'of ISRAEL.'
v8 is KEY here to getting this, your saying the children of the flesh are the children of God, an error.

Clearly God considers Israel only according to the SPIRIT and NOT according to the FLESH.
You and brotherjerry consider ALL Israel ELECT according to the flesh, so another error being promoted about who really are the 'elect' of Israel.

Elect has to do with the Spirit and not the flesh. If your spiritually minded you will acknowledge this.

Now see SDowney...you may not have read my post before you posted.

But you are correct that being a Jew does not mean you were born into it...that is only one way into being called a Jew...you can marry into it, or convert into the religion...Spiritual you might say. And I said as much when I said "And no where do we ever see God saying "You can be a Jew, you cannot, you can be a Jew, you cannot." It was always a matter of faith."

brotherjerry said:

Let me make it easy for some.
The word Elect is used 8 times in the New Testament. All 8 refer to the same Greek word. (It is Strongs 1588 for those that want to know).

Matthew 24:22
Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather togetherHis elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mark 13:20
Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:22
for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:27
And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
Luke 18:7
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Romans 8:33
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

not one of those mentions God electing certain people to be saved...it is in reference to Christians as a general elect, very similar to the use of elect in reference to Israel. So the ELECT went from the Jews being God's chosen people, to Christians being God's chosen people. And no where do we ever see God saying "You can be a Jew, you cannot, you can be a Jew, you cannot." It was always a matter of faith.

Click to expand...

Wrong again, another deceitful error, the word elect is used 24 times in 23 verses not 8 times. But see if you really studied the word, then you would not post errors about the word.

Yet I am sure you will persist, but will see how long.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV
Strongs G1588
Strong's Number G1588 matches the Greek ἐκλεκτός (eklektos),
which occurs 24 times in 23 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Click here to view results using the NASB Greek concordance

Click here to view results using the HCSB Greek concordance

Mat 20:16

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. G1588
Mat 22:14

For many are called, but few arechosen. G1588
Mat 24:22

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake G1588 those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. G1588
Mat 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect G1588 from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 13:20

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, G1588 whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:22

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. G1588
Mar 13:27

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect G1588 from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luk 18:7

And shall not God avenge his own elect, G1588 which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 23:35

And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen G1588 of God.
Rom 8:33

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? G1588 It is God that justifieth.
Rom 16:13

Salute Rufus chosen G1588 in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
Col 3:12

Put on therefore, as the elect G1588 of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Ti 5:21

I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect G1588 angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2Ti 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for G1588 the elect's G1588 sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Tit 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, G1588 and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2

Elect G1588 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 2:4

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen G1588of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:6

Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, G1588 precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:9

But ye are a chosen G1588 generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
2Jo 1:1

The elder unto the elect G1588 lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2Jo 1:13

The children of thy elect G1588 sister greet thee. Amen.
Rev 17:14

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, G1588 and faithful.

FreeGrace2 said:

OK, let's review what was actually said in post #326.

Marvin said this:
"You say that, if regeneration is the same as being saved, then regeneration is through faith as well. I totally agree with that statement. It is absolutely logical to say that.

You then say that, therefore, regeneration is through faith.

HOWEVER
Regeneration and being saved are not the same thing.
THEREFORE
You cannot logically make the connection that regeneration is through faith as you have tried to do with this passage."

So, first, Marvin AGREES with me by "totally agreeing with that statement"; that regeneration is through faith. He even says "it is absolutely logical to say that".

But, then, he says that I "cannot logically make the connection that regeneration is thorugh faith"!!!!!!!

He has totally contradicted himself.

And has the gall to say that I am playing games or being dishonest. How is it that I am being dishonest when he first agrees with my statement and then disagrees with it, and claims that I am the dishonest one?

Click to expand...

My saying, "if regeneration is the same as being saved" makes all the difference in the world as has been pointed out to you.

This is a perfect example of how you attempt to twist statements and obscure truth by switching one subject to another along the line.

You hope (and probably rightly assume) that it is usually only the person involved in a particular conversation who will know all that has been said. You hope that others who are just following along will swallow your tricks and let you slide off the hook.

Rather than concede a point and move on with other arguments - you often attempt to make the other person out to be wrong by misrepresenting what has been argued.

Again I say, "I hope this won't get me banned from the forum for saying it". But you are a dishonest person. It is not just that you and I disagree on many things. I disagree with many people here and have somewhat meaningful conversations. But dishonesty I simply will not attempt to deal with.

It's not so much that, as you charge me with, that I have "gall" as it is that I call them like I see them. In your case I have seen your tricks once too often to abide them.

Our Lord "equated" what you did in previous posts and what you have attempted to do here as lying and "of the evil one"

I will no longer discuss theology with one who has shown again and again that they are dishonest. This is a Christian forum.

SDowney...I get tired of your accusations. What I said was not untrue and it was in no way deceitful because that implies intention. What I posted was utilizing the NASB and I did not mention. That was not intentional and I should have mentioned what translation I was using. What I also only focused on was the translating of the word to "elect" and said as much.

So what you cited was just as incorrect...even in the KJV the Greek word is translated to Elect only 16 times.

Marvin Knox said:

My saying, "if regeneration is the same as being saved" makes all the difference in the world as has been pointed out to you.

This is a perfect example of how you attempt to twist statements and obscure truth by switching one subject to another along the line.

You hope (and probably rightly assume) that it is usually only the person involved in a particular conversation who will know all that has been said. You hope that others who are just following along will swallow your tricks and let you slide off the hook.

Rather than concede a point and move on with other arguments - you often attempt to make the other person out to be wrong by misrepresenting what has been argued.

Again I say, "I hope this won't get me banned from the forum for saying it". But you are a dishonest person. It is not just that you and I disagree on many things. I disagree with many people here and have somewhat meaningful conversations. But dishonesty I simply will not attempt to deal with.

It's not so much that, as you charge me with, that I have "gall" as it is that I call them like I see them. In your case I have seen your tricks once too often to abide them.

Our Lord "equated" what you did in previous posts and what you have attempted to do here as lying and "of the evil one"

I will no longer discuss theology with one who has shown again and again that they are dishonest. This is a Christian forum.

Click to expand...

Yes, opponents Of the Word will try to catch you out in your speech. They have an ungodly agenda, which If people truly studied the word and accepted what the scripture actually say, you think would be convicted in their hearts of the Truth, yet they don't and are more interested is twisting the scripture.
If they did so with Christ and they did, they also will attack His servant's of the grace of God and righteousness, and also they deny the power of God to intervene according to HIS will, overcoming the will of man to save people whom He has chosen to save, which are the elect.

You mean twisting scripture like when John says 1 John 2:2 "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." that he really did not mean the whole world, but only certain people in the world? That kind of twisting is that what you are talking about?

Or how about John 3:16 that says
"For God so love certain people in the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that those that will believe can have eternal life"?

expos4ever said:

Not true - Israel is described as God's "elect" or "chosen" in the Old Testament. If the concept of "election" is necessarily tied to salvation, we Gentiles are in hot water since Israel is clearly marked out as God's "elect" in the Old Testament.

But, happily, it is certainly not the case the concept of God "electing" is specific to the matter of salvation. Yes, God "elected" Israel but not in the sense of predestining every Jew to be saved.

Click to expand...

The question is (since elect means "the called out ones") exactly what were or are the elect called out from.

In the case of Israel they were called out from the other nations to be a special nation with a special purpose.

In the case of the "elect" in most of the other cases where it is used - the elect are called out from the world in general. They are called into the Kingdom of God out of the kingdoms of the the world. They are called out from wrath to glory. They are called out from being enemies of God to being Sons of God.

The "context" makes all the difference as has been pointed out.

I know you won't believe me but I was just yanking your chain on the John 3:16 verse...it actually does not say that...it says that God love the whole world....and that He gave His only begotten Son for that whole world, so that any who believe can be saved.

brotherjerry said:

not one of those mentions God electing certain people to be saved...it is in reference to Christians as a general elect, very similar to the use of elect in reference to Israel. So the ELECT went from the Jews being God's chosen people, to Christians being God's chosen people. And no where do we ever see God saying "You can be a Jew, you cannot, you can be a Jew, you cannot." It was always a matter of faith.

Click to expand...

I generally agree. Yes, the term "elect" is used, and yes "election" means choice. But one needs to actually make a case about what the specific terms of that election.

I have argued in detail in another thread that the Biblical use of the term elect follows this pattern: Israel is the first "target" of election and then Jesus becomes God's elect specifically in His capacity of taking on the covenantal obligation of Israel since she (Israel) could not, or would not, fulfill her role as God's elect.

So the Biblical focus of election is Jesus, not us as individuals. Here is where things admittedly get confusing. Yes, we are described as "elect" in the New Testament. But I suggest we are only "elect" because we are "in Christ". And while we have to agree that God "elected Jesus to do what he had to do" from the deeps of time, we can legitimately (that is, without doing any violence to Scripture) assert that we "freely" enter the "in Christ" state and thereby inherit the privileges of being elect.

But this is really a 'second-order' effect. It is Christ and Christ only who is "elect" in the sense of being fore-ordained to a specific destiny. We are not elected as individuals - we freely enter into faith and thereby, but only thereby, inherit the privileges of election.

I am sure this explanation is not very good, and I will try to be more rigorous in later posts.

sdowney717 said:

Well your going very very shallow there.

Click to expand...

No. You simply cannot deny that Israel is characterized as God's elect. That does not mean that the term "elect" cannot be used in other ways.

But it certainly does undermine your clearly circular argument that "election" means "election to salvation". If that were true, we would have to say that the Bible repeatedly characterizes Israel as God's elect, this means that all Jews are elected to salvation.

And that is clearly not the case.

sdowney717 said:

Paul says like this about Israel.
Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called."
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

v6, says not all Israel are 'of ISRAEL.'
v8 is KEY here to getting this, your saying the children of the flesh are the children of God, an error.

Click to expand...

I have never said anything of the kind. You are projecting your own belief that "election is always about salvation" onto me.

I have only stated the clear Biblical truth that, in the Old Testament, God describes Israel as "elect".

And to "elect" Israel means to choose it for something. And that something is not salvation. But since you assume that "election is always about salvation", you see me as claiming that Israel is elect to be the "children of God".

I most certainly do not believe that.

expos4ever said:

I generally agree. Yes, the term "elect" is used, and yes "election" means choice. But one needs to actually make a case about what the specific terms of that election.

I have argued in detail in another thread that the Biblical use of the term elect follows this pattern: Israel is the first "target" of election and then Jesus becomes God's elect specifically in His capacity of taking on the covenantal obligation of Israel since she (Israel) could not, or would not, fulfill her role as God's elect.

So the Biblical focus of election is Jesus, not us as individuals. Here is where things admittedly get confusing. Yes, we are described as "elect" in the New Testament. But I suggest we are only "elect" because we are "in Christ". And while we have to agree that God "elected Jesus to do what he had to do" from the deeps of time, we can legitimately (that is, without doing any violence to Scripture) assert that we "freely" enter the "in Christ" state and thereby inherit the privileges of being elect.

But this is really a 'second-order' effect. It is Christ and Christ only who is "elect" in the sense of being fore-ordained to a specific destiny. We are not elected as individuals - we freely enter into faith and thereby, but only thereby, inherit the privileges of election.

I am sure this explanation is not very good, and I will try to be more rigorous in later posts.

Click to expand...

Yup

brotherjerry said:

You mean twisting scripture like when John says 1 John 2:2 "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." that he really did not mean the whole world, but only certain people in the world? That kind of twisting is that what you are talking about?

Click to expand...

Define 'propitiation', you tell us what it means.
Then let us see if the world has propitiation.

Marvin Knox said:

The question is (since elect means "the called out ones") exactly what were or are the elect called out from.

Click to expand...

I agree, but would add that there is also the question "What are these elect people chosen for?"

Marvin Knox said:

In the case of Israel they were called out from the other nations to be a special nation with a special purpose.

Click to expand...

I agree. And since this purpose is clearly not to be elected to heaven, this shows that the concept of election can be used in senses that have no connection to eternal life. I know you are not saying otherwise, but another poster (sdowney) is.

Marvin Knox said:

In the case of the "elect" in most of the other cases where it is used - the elect are called out from the world in general. They are called into the Kingdom of God out of the kingdoms of the the world. They are called out from wrath to glory. They are called out from being enemies of God to being Sons of God.

The "context" makes all the difference as has been pointed out.

Click to expand...

Well, there are clearly cases where people are "elected" (in the sense of being chosen by God for some purpose) to something other than membership in the Kingdom of Heaven.

According to Paul in Romans 9, Pharaoh was "elected" to resist the exodus.

I agree that the term "the elect" does often denote the people of God who are destined for heaven. But, as I have argued (admittedly very superficially) in a recent post, the Biblical narrative drives us to conclude that Jesus and Jesus alone is the real "target" of election (after Israel effectively abdicated her covenantal role) and we only benefit by virtue of being "in Christ".

So it is Jesus that has been elected in the sense of "chosen in advance". Admittedly, believers are also described as the elect, but Biblically this is simply a way of saying that we are united with Christ, who alone is the true target of election.

I suspect you and others will object that this sounds awfully contrived. Well, I am confident it can be defended robustly.