Christmas and Easter

Taom Ben Robert said:

The problem with the pagan origins theory is that in the first few centuries ad Christianity did NOT borrow from other religions, two , as early as the second centery a church father mentions dec 25 as Christs birthday , three the pagan origins idea originates from the 18th century.

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What is your source that mentions December 25th as Messiah's birthday in the second century? There is no mention of birthday celebrations in Irenaeus or Tertullian. Origen mocked Roman birthday celebrations and dismissed them as pagan. Clement lists a few proposed dates for Messiah's birth, but doesn't list December 25th, but he didn't say it was celebrated. I personally think he was most likely born on Sukkot. I think the earliest mention of December 25th as Messiah's birthday is in the 4th century. The first recorded idea that Christmas was connected to paganism was in the 12th century, but regardless of when it was, that doesn't mean it is false. You could say that Christians in the 3rd century were celebrating Christmas during a time when Christians did not adopt pagan practices, but can you say that there has been no pagan practices that have been adopted between then and now? In the 17th century, Puritans conducted the first war on Christmas because of its pagan connections and made it illegal to celebrate until 1856.

Soyeong said:

What is your source that mentions December 25th as Messiah's birthday in the second century? There is no mention of birthday celebrations in Irenaeus or Tertullian. Origen mocked Roman birthday celebrations and dismissed them as pagan. Clement lists a few proposed dates for Messiah's birth, but doesn't list December 25th, but he didn't say it was celebrated. I personally think he was most likely born on Sukkot. I think the earliest mention of December 25th as Messiah's birthday is in the 4th century. The first recorded idea that Christmas was connected to paganism was in the 12th century, but regardless of when it was, that doesn't mean it is false. You could say that Christians in the 3rd century were celebrating Christmas during a time when Christians did not adopt pagan practices, but can you say that there has been no pagan practices that have been adopted between then and now? In the 17th century, Puritans conducted the first war on Christmas because of its pagan connections and made it illegal to celebrate until 1856.

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1.Hippolytus of Rome , commentary on Daniel , 4.23,3
2. Julius Africanus

Sorry the ,18 Th century was a typo

Also saturnalia falls on dec 17-23 not the 25 Th , second , the birthday of the unconquered sun was instituted by Julian the apostate so Christmas couldn't have been borrowed from either pagan holiday

Taom Ben Robert said:

1.Hippolytus of Rome , commentary on Daniel , 4.23,3
2. Julius Africanus

Sorry the ,18 Th century was a typo

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It's not clear from either of those that his birth was celebrated. But again, even if you say that Christians in the 3rd century were celebrating Christmas during a time when Christians did not adopt pagan practices, can you say that there has been no pagan practices that have been adopted between then and now? And I still think it is more likely that he was born on Sukkot.

Soyeong said:

It's not clear from either of those that his birth was celebrated. But again, even if you say that Christians in the 3rd century were celebrating Christmas during a time when Christians did not adopt pagan practices, can you say that there has been no pagan practices that have been adopted between then and now? And I still think it is more likely that he was born on Sukkot.

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One problem with Sukkot. It is one of the three feasts where all sons of Israel
are to be in Jerusalem at the temple. I doubt there would be a census on that
particular day. The first week of Abib, on the other hand...

pat34lee said:

One problem with Sukkot. It is one of the three feasts where all sons of Israel
are to be in Jerusalem at the temple. I doubt there would be a census on that
particular day. The first week of Abib, on the other hand...

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Like the Romans weren't into messing with the festival requirements. ..

Christmas music is unquestionably, undeniably exceedingly Holy. We are in rembrance of the birth of Christ. I can recount many Christmases, while singing Christmas songs, the Ruach HaKodesh has come upon me, and I just start crying, in church. It's so wonderful. And I'm just reminded of that power, that awesomeness and most important his holiness. I live for those moments. I know Christmas can't be pagan. It's a season of love.

Sheeple Shepherd said:

Thanksgiving may very well. I have not studied it out yet completely but it seems as though the pilgrams brought with them their pagan harvest feasts.

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While the exact date of the first American Thanksgiving observance is debatable, there is no doubt this custom sprang from the shared Judeo-Christian heritage of those early pilgrims. From early Spanish expeditions in the late 1500s to the Popham Colony in Maine in 1607, each group publically declared their thanks to the God of the Bible. Twelve years later, settlers in Virginia declared a day of thanksgiving for their survival on the shores of this then uncharted land. And in 1623, Governor William Bradford of Plymouth Colony established the most famous of all such observances when a bountiful harvest prompted him to proclaim a special day to “render thanksgiving to ye Almighty God for all His blessings.”

During the War of Independence from England, the U.S. Continental Congress set aside a day for thanksgiving and praise for the decisive victory at Saratoga in 1777, marking the first time that all American colonies took part in such an event on the same day. The following year at Valley Forge, George Washington declared a special day of thanksgiving upon receiving news that France would provide aid to our cause. And later, as the young nation’s first president, he responded to a congressional petition by declaring Thursday, November 26, 1789, as the first Thanksgiving Day of the United States of America.1



1 https://www.icr.org/article/7079/

Soyeong said:

That's what the Torah is about. I can't answer your question without reciting it.

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What he is trying to corner you on, do you do the orthodox halacha requirements?

sunsurfkdt said:

Christmas music is unquestionably, undeniably exceedingly Holy. We are in rembrance of the birth of Christ. I can recount many Christmases, while singing Christmas songs, the Ruach HaKodesh has come upon me, and I just start crying, in church. It's so wonderful. And I'm just reminded of that power, that awesomeness and most important his holiness. I live for those moments. I know Christmas can't be pagan. It's a season of love.

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"Veiled in flesh the Godhead see!
Hail, incarnate Deity!
Pleased as man with man to dwell,
Jesus, our Emmanuel."

"..In this world of sin,
Where meek souls will receive Him still,
The dear Christ enters in."

[.]

sunsurfkdt said:

It's a season of love.

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How should the other three seasons be classified as? Love never fails no matter what time of year. 1 Corinthians 13:8

From what I understand a Christian shouldn't confuse love with sentimental emotion.

Hmmm then season of joy

Norbert L said:

How should the other three seasons be classified as? Love never fails no matter what time of year. 1 Corinthians 13:8

From what I understand a Christian shouldn't confuse love with sentimental emotion.

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I think there's a song called 'Love came down at Christmas'.

sunsurfkdt said:

Hmmm then season of joy

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"Joy to the world! The Lord has come
Let earth receive her King!
Let every heart prepare Him room

And heaven and nature sing
And heaven and nature sing
And heaven, and heaven and nature sing

Joy to the world! the Savior reigns
Let men their songs employ
While fields and floods
Rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy
Repeat the sounding joy
Repeat, repeat the sounding joy

No more let sins and sorrows grow
Nor thorns infest the ground
He comes to make
His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found
Far as the curse is found
Far as, far as the curse is found"

sunsurfkdt said:

Christmas music is unquestionably, undeniably exceedingly Holy. We are in rembrance of the birth of Christ. I can recount many Christmases, while singing Christmas songs, the Ruach HaKodesh has come upon me, and I just start crying, in church. It's so wonderful. And I'm just reminded of that power, that awesomeness and most important his holiness. I live for those moments. I know Christmas can't be pagan. It's a season of love.

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If it's all about Jesus' birth, then do you skip the trees, the lights, the parties,
gift buying to the point of going broke, giving presents from Santa, etc?

Ah, the Christmas carols celebrating the birth of the Messiah:

Santa Clause is Coming to Town
Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer
Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer
O Christmas Tree
White Christmas
I'll be Home for Christmas
Santa Baby
All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth
I want a Hippopotamus for Christmas
Silver Bells
Frosty the Snowman
Jingle Bells

Then the Christmas shows and movies:
Too many to name

Do your neighborhood kids see Yeshua in any of it outside of church or congregation?
Do they see him in them for that matter?

pat34lee said:

Ah, the Christmas carols celebrating the birth of the Messiah:

Santa Clause is Coming to Town
Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer
Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer
O Christmas Tree
White Christmas
I'll be Home for Christmas
Santa Baby
All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth
I want a Hippopotamus for Christmas
Silver Bells
Frosty the Snowman
Jingle Bells

Then the Christmas shows and movies:
Too many to name

Do your neighborhood kids see Yeshua in any of it outside of church or congregation?
Do they see him in them for that matter?

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There are actually many good carols that do speak well of the Savior. I don't think that the existence of the more lightweight ones is a good reason to avoid all appraisals of the glorious Biblical truth of the Incarnation.

visionary said:

Like the Romans weren't into messing with the festival requirements. ..

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I just ran across a relevant quote used by Dr. Bacchiocchi, the SDA historian and scholar. If I'm correct the Barney Kasdan referred to is this man: http://www.kehilatariel.org/wordpress/?page_id=91

Bethlehem is only four miles from Jerusalem. “The Romans,” notes Barney Kasdan, “were known to take their censuses according to the prevailing custom of the occupied territories. Hence, in the case of Israel, they would opt to have the people report to their provinces at a time that would be convenient for them. There is no apparent logic to calling the census in the middle of winter. The more logical time of taxation would be after the harvest, in the fall,”4 when people had in their hands the revenue of their harvest.

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sahjimira said:

I guess I could quit Thanksgiving and birthdays to be consistent

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"Quit them" because they violate what scripture exactly?