So I am a former believer trying to find my way back to faith. That's said I am at this point throughly convinced that there simply is simply no good reason to believe in God. Often in my conversations with believers they will quote the Bible as an authoritative text. This authority is based on its divine inspiration. One of the ways that some Christians claim to know that the Bible is divine is that it contains prophesies that have come true, prophesies that no mere moral could have written or orchestrated. When I was a believer I remwmber my pastor saying, full of confidence and authority, that the coming of Jesus fulfilled hundreds of specific prophesies proving without doubt that he is the son of god. However, when I eventually went back to look at some of these prophesies I was puzzled to say the least. Many of them don't seem to be prophesies at all or are about something else entirely. That said I rain fascinated by the subject and I believe that if I could be convinced that the Bible was a book of valid prophesies that this would go a long way towards helping me accept it ad the word of God.
In this thread I would like to discuss, debate and investigate the various prophesies in the Bible to see what force they have as an apologetic for the Bible specifically but Christianity in general.
Before we start it is always helpful to define terms and unfortunately prophecy is a slippery one
I am pulling my definition from a talk by Matt Dillahunty (prominent atheist speaker). Obviously this will slant the discussion a certain way but I can only popose a definition of prophecy that I am comfortable with here at the outset. That said if you would like to change some of the parts of the definition, take some out, add new ones or an nuances to existing elements please do so and include your rational for your perspective. I am always happy to be corrected or guided towards a more sophisticated understanding.
All that said here is my first stab at defining prophecy :
1)Prophecies must be written before the events they describe and that we must be able to verify this to a reasonable degree of certainty. This is nuanced by how much time is to elapse. If I look at a thunder cloud and predict rain today this wouldn't signify. If I look at a thunder cloud and predict a thunderstorm exactly one year from now at this exact time...well then we have something!
2)The statement must be intended as a prophecy. So if I say wow it sure is raining ....I have not made a prophecy that it will rain.
3)There must be some element of the extraordinary. Maybe the pediction is for an incredible event, or is incredibly detailed or is about a totally ordinary event but there are an extrordinary number of events predicted. Needless to say that events should not be easily fufilled. For example if I predict that somewhere in the world every day a minimum of 10 people will cry and that this will be true on 2 consecutive days, I haven't really predicted anything noteworthy.
4)unless specifically stated as a multiple occurrence prophecy, each prophecy should be fufilled by only one instance. So if I predict a woman will be the president of the United states and it happens next year and again 100 years from now, I can't claim that my one prediction was a specific prediction of both instances.
5) the prophecy should not be open to interpretation. If I were to say...in the day of the acendancy of the woman shall there be a great calamity...this is not a prediction. It could be satisfied in so many ways by so many variables that it is useless as prophecy.
6) Prophecy needs to be specific about time, location etc. Again if I predict a female leader shall rise and don't say what year, rise to what position, what country etc then the prophecy has no value because it will be fufilled eventually by chance.
7) The next part is from the video and not actually one I agree with ...he says the prophecy must be publicly known but not easy for people who know about it to bring about. I think the part about being publicly known is actually a part of #1. If we discover a prophecy and verify that it was written 1000 years ago, meets all the other criteria and came true last week I don't think that it is invalid just because nobody knew about it for all those years. However if it is publicly known it would need to be very difficult to manufacture. For example the alleged prophecy about coming into the city on a donkey. Well Jesus was Jewish and knew that prophecy and donkeys being readily available picked one up to ride in on....not really impressive as a fufillment of prophecy since anyone who knew about it could have achieved this.
Anyway these are my initial thoughts. At present I don't believe that the Bible is inspired and don't believe that there are examples of divine prophecy in the Bible but as I said before I would really like to be wrong about that
Looking forward to your thoughts!
In this thread I would like to discuss, debate and investigate the various prophesies in the Bible to see what force they have as an apologetic for the Bible specifically but Christianity in general.
Before we start it is always helpful to define terms and unfortunately prophecy is a slippery one
I am pulling my definition from a talk by Matt Dillahunty (prominent atheist speaker). Obviously this will slant the discussion a certain way but I can only popose a definition of prophecy that I am comfortable with here at the outset. That said if you would like to change some of the parts of the definition, take some out, add new ones or an nuances to existing elements please do so and include your rational for your perspective. I am always happy to be corrected or guided towards a more sophisticated understanding.
All that said here is my first stab at defining prophecy :
1)Prophecies must be written before the events they describe and that we must be able to verify this to a reasonable degree of certainty. This is nuanced by how much time is to elapse. If I look at a thunder cloud and predict rain today this wouldn't signify. If I look at a thunder cloud and predict a thunderstorm exactly one year from now at this exact time...well then we have something!
2)The statement must be intended as a prophecy. So if I say wow it sure is raining ....I have not made a prophecy that it will rain.
3)There must be some element of the extraordinary. Maybe the pediction is for an incredible event, or is incredibly detailed or is about a totally ordinary event but there are an extrordinary number of events predicted. Needless to say that events should not be easily fufilled. For example if I predict that somewhere in the world every day a minimum of 10 people will cry and that this will be true on 2 consecutive days, I haven't really predicted anything noteworthy.
4)unless specifically stated as a multiple occurrence prophecy, each prophecy should be fufilled by only one instance. So if I predict a woman will be the president of the United states and it happens next year and again 100 years from now, I can't claim that my one prediction was a specific prediction of both instances.
5) the prophecy should not be open to interpretation. If I were to say...in the day of the acendancy of the woman shall there be a great calamity...this is not a prediction. It could be satisfied in so many ways by so many variables that it is useless as prophecy.
6) Prophecy needs to be specific about time, location etc. Again if I predict a female leader shall rise and don't say what year, rise to what position, what country etc then the prophecy has no value because it will be fufilled eventually by chance.
7) The next part is from the video and not actually one I agree with ...he says the prophecy must be publicly known but not easy for people who know about it to bring about. I think the part about being publicly known is actually a part of #1. If we discover a prophecy and verify that it was written 1000 years ago, meets all the other criteria and came true last week I don't think that it is invalid just because nobody knew about it for all those years. However if it is publicly known it would need to be very difficult to manufacture. For example the alleged prophecy about coming into the city on a donkey. Well Jesus was Jewish and knew that prophecy and donkeys being readily available picked one up to ride in on....not really impressive as a fufillment of prophecy since anyone who knew about it could have achieved this.
Anyway these are my initial thoughts. At present I don't believe that the Bible is inspired and don't believe that there are examples of divine prophecy in the Bible but as I said before I would really like to be wrong about that
Looking forward to your thoughts!