Being that you are some what aware of the subject I thought you may likewise be aware of what Scriptures I would be referring to. As that is not the case I certainly can point out some Biblical references for you. Again, the idea is man is unable to come to God on his own. That he is a slave to sin and thus desires not to seek God.
- John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."
- Romans 8:7 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
- John 3:20 - "For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."
- Romans 3:10-12 - "no one seeks for God."
- Romans 9:16 - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
- Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Are you familiar with any of these verses? Regardless, what are your thoughts?
God does impose on man's free will. As outlined in Scripture. God hardens hearts. God changes hearts. Are you telling me God is not capable of these things?
No, man does not have "some" innate desire. Man's innate desire is to sin. God places within him a desire to do good and follow Him.
According to the Bible said ideas are true. Man does not desire to follow God until he is regeneraed. That is a gift of God, and not from ourselves.
Yes, much like an a forethought. In God's case, it is foreknowledge. Foreknowledge and free will are not mutually exclusive. This is something I covered in the debate too.
Free will is not taken away. Our will needs to be changed in order to follow God, and only He can do that. And are you saying that the mst important use of freee will is to choose to follow God? That would not be accurate according to the Bible. Free will is necessary as
elopez,
By "leaving it there", I did not mean leaving it without some kind of Biblical support. My very next statement makes it clear that what I meant was that you were leaving out an expected effort to deal with the apparent contradiction this view creates. Nonetheless, since you did attempt to address that contradiction in your most recent response, we can move on.
If you think about it, every one of your main ideas points more readily to the conclusion that man does
not have free will than to the idea that he
does. You say that man is
unable to come to God on his own. Not much freedom to choose there. Then you say that he is a
slave to sin. That state is diametrically opposed to the concept of being free in your choices! Finally you imply that man always seeks exactly one way:
not the way of God, the way
opposing God. Not much sign of real choosing going on there either.
So how do any of those statements support your claim that man has a will that is "free", when clearly they point to the opposite?
Your black and white interpretation of man's heart simply does not fit with reality. We see Jesus praise the old woman who, while yet not “saved” by the sacrifice of Jesus, gave “all that she had” even though she was very poor, and yet you would stand there and tell Jesus that she desired only sin in so doing. We hear Jesus say of Nathaniel that “in him is no guile” while Nathaniel new little more of Jesus than that He was from Nazareth – but you would correct Jesus and explain that there is nothing but guile in all men's hearts before salvation by the cross (remember: there is no other way but by Him, and the Holy Spirit had not yet come).
So scripture makes it clear that man sometimes does choose the way of God, while he has yet tasted of salvation. Your interpretation of those verses contradicts this.
In his essence, man does desire to find God and of course finds his fulfillment in Him. But having been corrupted by sin, and deceived by the lies of the evil one, man does not know God, nor does he trust in the unfathomable love which God has for him. So of course man looks to the things that merely appear to give him the acceptance and life-flowing energy that he needs. And he is sad when they are lost because the life man wants is eternal. So God finds man and presents Himself to man. And that ultimate expression which points to something only God can be and nothing else is Jesus (logos) the eternal
expression of God. And what Jesus did on the cross and by His resurrection revealed who God truly is beyond doubt and beyond what any man would or could ever do.
The bottom line is: yes, what man is ultimately looking for is God, and it is God who made Himself known and opens man's eyes to see Him as He is and to trust in His perfect authority and His perfect love. But no, until that time, man is deceived, and lives as if the creations of the world can give him the eternal life that Jesus instead promises in earnest. Man does not
know to seek God. And while the man who is “of His flock” still rejects God and seeks other things, it is always a vision of God that is not true. It is often based on a vision that fallen man and false religion presents to him. And it is good that man does not seek this thing.
God can indeed bring about circumstances which will have the effect of softening a man's heart – away from the protective walls which guard the prideful authority he gives to other things, especially to himself. Those walls may be broken down by life events which God orchestrates, as He is actively involved in man's story every day … He does not simply wait for the appointed day and then “zap” him into joyful submission.
Yet with all of this, none of what you believe about the process or what I believe about the process proves that man has free will. And only yours presents a major problem because according to you, man is free to choose his Corn Flakes for breakfast, but not which god he is going to follow until his death. This is as absurd as it sounds. If a choice to love is to have any meaning at all it must be made by the one you want -- and God wants us even before we are saved, not some
different person with a "zap" changed set of desires. But rather one whose desires were lured and coaxed and sometimes made desperate to find their fulfillment in Him and in nothing else. It's as if your interpretation of Scripture doesn't understand the nature of love at all.
I am not questioning whether or not man has a will which directs his actions towards the fulfillment of his desires. But is he “free” to choose his desires? And what does a “freely made” choice mean anyway? These things need to be defined in order for you to justify your proposition that this “free choosing” thing is something man is doing in the first place.
