praying for the dead

Wgw · Nov 27, 2015

Albion said:
Right. The thinking is not exactly the same between the two communions, and perhaps I should just have let the opportunity to comment pass me by, but since corporate prayer vs. private prayer had been mentioned, I thought I'd comment as I did. We do pray (according to the Book of Common Prayer's Rite for Holy Communion, i.e. the Divine Liturgy) for the faithful departed but not with any mention of any Purgatory-type situation. If the question is asked "What then do you say you are intending by such a prayer?" it is that the faithful departed continue to grow in grace--which kind of reminds me of the way the Orthodox think about the afterlife. And of course the departed are referred to as models for us.

Purgatory is not an Orthodox doctrine.

MarkRohfrietsch · Nov 28, 2015

Albion said:
FWIW, this is essentially what happens during the Anglican worship service, i.e. during corporate worship, although the wording does include the idea that it's the "faithful" departed who are in mind, and there is nothing about any particular adjustment in their standing with God, no release from Purgatory or shortening of their suffering, or anything like that.

Much the same in Lutheranism; certainly there are prayers in the the three services; funeral, blessing of a grave and committal where we pray for the departed, commending them, body and soul to God's eternal care. At the grave side, with the blessing of the grave and the committal we ask that the mortal remains be held in God's care until the resurrection. Non of these prayers are going to affect the outcome for the departed, but the are prayers of the faithful, expressing faith and trust in our Lord's promises. Those prayers are all about worship and praise and the edification of those who mourn.

Albion · Nov 28, 2015

Wgw said:
Purgatory is not an Orthodox doctrine.

I thought we'd already mentioned that.

Yes, that's right. In post #38, Kylissa made that point, so I didn't think there was any reason to repeat it.

Athanasias · Nov 29, 2015

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Much the same in Lutheranism; certainly there are prayers in the the three services; funeral, blessing of a grave and committal where we pray for the departed, commending them, body and soul to God's eternal care. At the grave side, with the blessing of the grave and the committal we ask that the mortal remains be held in God's care until the resurrection. Non of these prayers are going to affect the outcome for the departed, but the are prayers of the faithful, expressing faith and trust in our Lord's promises. Those prayers are all about worship and praise and the edification of those who mourn.

Hello my friend! I hope your having a blessed Advent so far! So when Lutherans pray for the dead why do it if it does not affect the outcome of the departed soul? Is it only for edification for those who mourn? If so why not just pray for those who mourn? It seems the Jews and early Christians prayed for the dead for the good of the soul itself for purification. How does the historical Jewish/early Christian practice and theology of this square away with current Lutheran practice? Just curious.

~Anastasia~ · Nov 29, 2015

Where's the :eating_popcorn: smilie when I need it ... ?

MarkRohfrietsch · Nov 30, 2015

Athanasias said:
Hello my friend! I hope your having a blessed Advent so far! So when Lutherans pray for the dead why do it if it does not affect the outcome of the departed soul? Is it only for edification for those who mourn? If so why not just pray for those who mourn? It seems the Jews and early Christians prayed for the dead for the good of the soul itself for purification. How does the historical Jewish/early Christian practice and theology of this square away with current Lutheran practice? Just curious.

Adiaphora, maybe it does, maybe it does not. God, in His great and infinite mercy is the final arbiter regarding the repose of one's immortal soul. God is not going to be swayed by my will or desires; not likely yours either.

Have you considered that praying for the dead for our edification and strengthening of faith is something that God does for mankind, and that in this way the dear departed continue the work of the Chruch in bolstering and spreading the faith?

Athanasias · Nov 30, 2015

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Adiaphora, maybe it does, maybe it does not. God, in His great and infinite mercy is the final arbiter regarding the repose of one's immortal soul. God is not going to be swayed by my will or desires; not likely yours either.

Have you considered that praying for the dead for our edification and strengthening of faith is something that God does for mankind, and that in this way the dear departed continue the work of the Chruch in bolstering and spreading the faith?

Thanks for this answer my friend. I truly hope your advent is going well so far! If the Lutherans can admit to at least an adiaphora on this that is a good first step and much closer to the traditional Jewish/Early Christian/Catholic stance on things then 98% of protestant Christianity.

I do understand your points and concern. Let me clarify a bit. In our understanding and in the early Churches our prayers do not sway Gods will or desires. God knows the outcome of each person. Much like in this life when we pray for one another who may have cancer or is suffering and sick those prayers are not meant to change God's mind. God knows who he will heal and who he will not. But sometimes God will choose to heal a person based upon the prayers of another. He loves to use his body the Church. This is very Jewish in root. Rather those prayers are meant to ask God to help that person be healed quickly(if he wills it). In our view of a person is in purgatory suffering they will eventually get to heaven(So God already knows that they will be saved we cannot change his mind) but He desires us to act in mercy and love for one another and He may wish to end their suffering and wait for heaven based on the prayer of another. Does that Help?

MarkRohfrietsch · Nov 30, 2015

Athanasias said:
Thanks for this answer my friend. I truly hope your advent is going well so far! If the Lutherans can admit to at least an adiaphora on this that is a good first step and much closer to the traditional Jewish/Early Christian/Catholic stance on things then 98% of protestant Christianity.

I do understand your points and concern. Let me clarify a bit. In our understanding and in the early Churches our prayers do not sway Gods will or desires. God knows the outcome of each person. Much like in this life when we pray for one another who may have cancer or is suffering and sick those prayers are not meant to change God's mind. God knows who he will heal and who he will not. But sometimes God will choose to heal a person based upon the prayers of another. He loves to use his body the Church. This is very Jewish in root. Rather those prayers are meant to ask God to help that person be healed quickly(if he wills it). In our view of a person is in purgatory suffering they will eventually get to heaven(So God already knows that they will be saved we cannot change his mind) but He desires us to act in mercy and love for one another and He may wish to end their suffering and wait for heaven based on the prayer of another. Does that Help?

Our confessions state that praying for the dead is "good and beneficial"; it just does not say in what way. I do certainly understand the Catholic position in this regard, but we, like our Orthodox brothers and sisters, don't buy into the concept of purgatory. All those who enter heaven are purged of their sin; as scripture tells us, washed in the blood of the Lamb, but it is not our belief that it is a process that can be shortened, or even that it takes more than an instant. When we pray for the departed, they are already where they are going; be it heaven or hell.

~Anastasia~ · Nov 30, 2015

MarkRohfrietsch said:
When we pray for the departed, they are already where they are going; be it heaven or hell.

Mark, if I may, can I ask you the questions I was going to get to earlier in the thread when that conversation kind of ended? Since you brought this up?

Let's just cut to the heart of it ... I take it you would say the final judgment has not yet occurred, correct? The one spoken of in Revelation, after all bodies are raised?

So how can it be that souls are already in hell, if that judgment hasn't taken place yet?

(BTW, I'm not looking to trap you or convince you of anything - as you know, the Orthodox do NOT teach that we can "pray someone out of hell" ... we just don't really define exactly what happens as a result of our prayers for mercy. There is speculation, but the truth is, we don't know dogmatically. We do pray - we do quite a lot of praying in fact. But we don't claim to know the exact outcome. So I'm not trying to trap you into anything - I just had to ask this based on what you just posted? Thanks!)

thecolorsblend · Dec 1, 2015

Not that you asked me... but you're thinking in very linear terms. And that may be a problem in this discussion because God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Someone can't be "prayed out" of hell, as you correctly say. But God is not limited by time.

Therefore our prayers aren't limited by time either.

We can pray that so-and-so died in a state of grace and it may be heard today and then granted yesterday (or some other time in our past). God is not limited by time. That's no guarantee of an outcome, obviously, but it is a recognition that our limitations aren't God's limitations.

MarkRohfrietsch · Dec 1, 2015

Kylissa said:
Mark, if I may, can I ask you the questions I was going to get to earlier in the thread when that conversation kind of ended? Since you brought this up?

Let's just cut to the heart of it ... I take it you would say the final judgment has not yet occurred, correct? The one spoken of in Revelation, after all bodies are raised?

So how can it be that souls are already in hell, if that judgment hasn't taken place yet?

(BTW, I'm not looking to trap you or convince you of anything - as you know, the Orthodox do NOT teach that we can "pray someone out of hell" ... we just don't really define exactly what happens as a result of our prayers for mercy. There is speculation, but the truth is, we don't know dogmatically. We do pray - we do quite a lot of praying in fact. But we don't claim to know the exact outcome. So I'm not trying to trap you into anything - I just had to ask this based on what you just posted? Thanks!)

No worries, I know that you would never try and trap anyone.

Yes, we await our Lord's final return and the final judgement. Those in heaven will be judged sinless, those in Hell/Gehenna/Sheol will be judged also, and cast into the lake of fire. I think, until the final judgement, those who's ultimate destination is eternal damnation are separated from God; the real punishment begins after the judgement. This is my personal take.

MarkRohfrietsch · Dec 1, 2015

thecolorsblend said:
Not that you asked me... but you're thinking in very linear terms. And that may be a problem in this discussion because God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Someone can't be "prayed out" of hell, as you correctly say. But God is not limited by time.

Therefore our prayers aren't limited by time either.

We can pray that so-and-so died in a state of grace and it may be heard today and then granted yesterday (or some other time in our past). God is not limited by time. That's no guarantee of an outcome, obviously, but it is a recognition that our limitations aren't God's limitations.

I have heard this argument before from a good friend, a Catholic Priest, now deceased who, I'm sure is in heaven, and who I look forward to seeing again, BTW. The thing is that physical death is finite; even our Lord on the Cross stated "it is finished". I believe physical death is a line that when crossed becomes the defining moment when one's soul is either with God or separated from God.

Likewise, in God's Word, we hear a lot about heaven, but never once do we hear anything about late admittance. The good thief died and was there straight away; same day.

~Anastasia~ · Dec 1, 2015

thecolorsblend said:
Not that you asked me... but you're thinking in very linear terms. And that may be a problem in this discussion because God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Someone can't be "prayed out" of hell, as you correctly say. But God is not limited by time.

Therefore our prayers aren't limited by time either.

We can pray that so-and-so died in a state of grace and it may be heard today and then granted yesterday (or some other time in our past). God is not limited by time. That's no guarantee of an outcome, obviously, but it is a recognition that our limitations aren't God's limitations.

You are certainly right, and that's a point I've used myself. Iirc, even earlier in this thread. Sometimes I have difficulty and switch back and forth between mindsets, lol. Funny - I used to pray every time I saw an ambulance, as a Protestant, on the same grounds as this, even if the person had died/was dying.

Thank you.

~Anastasia~ · Dec 1, 2015

MarkRohfrietsch said:
No worries, I know that you would never try and trap anyone.

Yes, we await our Lord's final return and the final judgement. Those in heaven will be judged sinless, those in Hell/Gehenna/Sheol will be judged also, and cast into the lake of fire. I think, until the final judgement, those who's ultimate destination is eternal damnation are separated from God; the real punishment begins after the judgement. This is my personal take.

Thanks Mark.

Perhaps what you describe is similar to what we believe. We say departed souls experience a "foretaste" of their final judgement between their particular judgement after death, and the final judgement.

We do not say, btw, that the final judgement can be a different one. But we also do not dogmatically say that it cannot. We expect the judgements will be the same, but we do not limit God, and leave this in the realm of mystery.

Thank you for the reply.

thecolorsblend · Dec 1, 2015

MarkRohfrietsch said:
I have heard this argument before from a good friend, a Catholic Priest, now deceased who, I'm sure is in heaven, and who I look forward to seeing again, BTW. The thing is that physical death is finite; even our Lord on the Cross stated "it is finished". I believe physical death is a line that when crossed becomes the defining moment when one's soul is either with God or separated from God.

Likewise, in God's Word, we hear a lot about heaven, but never once do we hear anything about late admittance. The good thief died and was there straight away; same day.

I'm not sure you understood what I wrote. There is no late admittance; only the possibility that God, not limited by time and/or space, can hear our prayer today and work in someone's heart last week so that they can die in a state of grace yesterday. Their destination is neither changed nor do they arrive late.

JoeP222w · Dec 3, 2015

Wgw said:
in addition to various items in books you would call apocryphal, which the Orthodox regard as canonical, there is also 2 Timothy 1:18. Although strictly speaking from an Orthodox perspective we do not need this, because of 2 Thess 2:15 and Matthew 16:18.

How does 2 Timothy 1:18, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 or Matthew 16:18 permit, promote or encourage prayer for the dead?

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2 Timothy 1:18 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day!—and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

I would say that passage is referring to the resurrection, where some are resurrected to eternal life (i.e. Heaven) with Jesus Christ, or where some are condemned to eternal death (i.e. Hell). The resurrected body is no longer dead.

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2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

But this does not say that traditions are equal to or greater than, in their authority in comparison to the Bible.

---------------
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

How does this support prayer for the dead in anyway?

Wgw · Dec 3, 2015

JoeP222w said:
How does 2 Timothy 1:18, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 or Matthew 16:18 permit, promote or encourage prayer for the dead?

---------
2 Timothy 1:18 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day!—and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

I would say that passage is referring to the resurrection, where some are resurrected to eternal life (i.e. Heaven) with Jesus Christ, or where some are condemned to eternal death (i.e. Hell). The resurrected body is no longer dead.

Because on that basis, we can follow St. Paul and pray for the Lord to grant a deceased person mercy.

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2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

But this does not say that traditions are equal to or greater than, in their authority in comparison to the Bible.

No it does not. However, since it is a tradition of the Orthodox, Assyrians, and RCs to pray for the dead, we can regard it as not violating scriptural prohibitions againt necromancy, but rather, as legitimate acts of prayer.

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Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

How does this support prayer for the dead in anyway?

If prayer for the dead constituted apostasy, since all known Christians at one time engaged in it, this dominical statement would be untrue.

JoeP222w · Dec 9, 2015

Wgw said:
Because on that basis, we can follow St. Paul and pray for the Lord to grant a deceased person mercy.

No it does not. However, since it is a tradition of the Orthodox, Assyrians, and RCs to pray for the dead, we can regard it as not violating scriptural prohibitions againt necromancy, but rather, as legitimate acts of prayer.

If prayer for the dead constituted apostasy, since all known Christians at one time engaged in it, this dominical statement would be untrue.

Onesiphorus was still quite alive, so that is not a positive example of praying for the dead.

Traditions don't overrule scripture.

If Christians practice something, that does not make it a righteous act. Scripture is the overruling authority, not people practicing a behavior.

Wgw · Dec 9, 2015

JoeP222w said:
Onesiphorus was still quite alive, so that is not a positive example of praying for the dead.

Traditions don't overrule scripture.

If Christians practice something, that does not make it a righteous act. Scripture is the overruling authority, not people practicing a behavior.

Given that this loke so much else is a matter of subjective interpretation, the Orthodox regard this as subject to the legislative force of tradition (canon 73 of St. Basil).

Albion · Dec 9, 2015

Wgw said:
However, since it is a tradition of the Orthodox, Assyrians, and RCs to pray for the dead, we can regard it as not violating scriptural prohibitions againt necromancy, but rather, as legitimate acts of prayer.

I guess that that would be sufficient for a member of those churches to think it's OK, but "my church says" isn't really a very good answer.

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