Torah ~ What Is It? (MJ Only)

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AbbaLove

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Can we agree that the use of the word Torah in the SOP is understood as ...
The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings. http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

Can we agree that the use of the word Torah in the new SOP is referring to the Torah(law) of Moses and the Torah(law) of the Tanakh and NOT the law(Torah) of the Spirit of Romans 8:2 .

This is not to imply, in any way, that those displaying a Messianic faith icon do not understand the law of the Spirit of Romans 8:4
 

Shimshon

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Can we agree that the use of the word Torah in the SOP is understood as ...

Can we agree that the use of the word Torah in the new SOP is referring to the Torah(law) of Moses and the Torah(law) of the Tanakh and NOT the law(Torah) of the Spirit of Romans 8:2 .

This is not to imply, in any way, that those displaying a Messianic faith icon do not understand the law of the Spirit of Romans 8:4
Two laws? Interesting.......
Do not Messianics here believe that the Torah of the Spirit is leading all believers to observe the Torah of Moses? And that the Torah of the Spirit is a renewal of the Torah of Moses? Not another Torah altogether?
 
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AbbaLove

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Let's start with the basic meaning of Torah-----Instruction on how to walk uprightly before the L-RD.

The Hebrew word, torah (תורה), is derived from a root that was used in the realm of archery, yareh (ירה). Yareh means to shoot an arrow in order to hit a mark. The mark or target, of course, was the object at which the archer was aiming. Consequently, torah, one of the nouns derived from this root, is, therefore, the arrow aimed at the mark, The target is the truth about God and how one relates to Him. The torah is, therefore, in the strict sense instruction designed to teach us the truth about God. Torah means direction, teaching, instruction, or doctrine. http://www.torahresourcesinternational.info/definition.php

So from the posts so far we agree that those displaying the "Messianic" faith icon consider the Torah to be the Instrucction of the Spirit of G-d as evident in the entire Bible, not just the first five Books or the TaNaKh.
 
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Lulav

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The word 'towrah' is found 219 times in the tanakh,

Genesis 1
Exodus 7
Leviticus 16
Numbers 9
Deuteronomy 22
Joshua 8
1 Kings 1
2 Kings 10
1 Chronicles 2
2 Chronicles 17
Ezra 4
Nehemiah 21
Job 1
Psalms 35
Proverbs 12
Isaiah 12
Jeremiah 11
Lamentations 1
Ezekiel 6
Daniel 3
Hosea 3
Amos 1
Micah 1
Habakkuk 1
Zephaniah 1
Haggai 1
Zechariah 1
Malachi 5

Definition (it is feminine btw)

  1. law, direction, instruction
    1. instruction, direction (human or divine)
      1. body of prophetic teaching
      2. instruction in Messianic age
      3. body of priestly direction or instruction
      4. body of legal directives
    2. law
      1. law of the burnt offering
      2. of special law, codes of law
    3. custom, manner
    4. the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law
 
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Pentateuch and Yeshua

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Torah (capital T) is the Pentateuch, the first five books of all of the known judeo-christian bible canons.

The word torah, uncapitalised except where punctuated with a capital letter due to appearing as the first word in a sentence, is the Hebrew word for teaching, and many Jews, usually Orthodox refer to the Pentateuch as the Written Torah and the Talmud as the Oral Torah and use the stand-alone word "Torah" as an all inclusive term for both (and sometimes perhaps even encompass the Tanakh in the meaning too).

Paul's letters CANNOT be described as or be used to define or understand Torah in any way, although his letters may be considered torah or teaching for Christian/Catholic churches, and the messianic synagogues/congregations that value Paul's teachings.
 
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Steve Petersen

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The word 'towrah' is found 219 times in the tanakh,

Genesis 1
Exodus 7
Leviticus 16
Numbers 9
Deuteronomy 22
Joshua 8
1 Kings 1
2 Kings 10
1 Chronicles 2
2 Chronicles 17
Ezra 4
Nehemiah 21
Job 1
Psalms 35
Proverbs 12
Isaiah 12
Jeremiah 11
Lamentations 1
Ezekiel 6
Daniel 3
Hosea 3
Amos 1
Micah 1
Habakkuk 1
Zephaniah 1
Haggai 1
Zechariah 1
Malachi 5

Definition (it is feminine btw)

  1. law, direction, instruction
    1. instruction, direction (human or divine)
      1. body of prophetic teaching
      2. instruction in Messianic age
      3. body of priestly direction or instruction
      4. body of legal directives
    2. law
      1. law of the burnt offering
      2. of special law, codes of law
    3. custom, manner
    4. the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

Curious. Where did you find the definitions listed above?
 
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pat34lee

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Paul's letters CANNOT be described as or be used to define or understand Torah in any way, although his letters may be considered torah or teaching for Christian/Catholic churches, and the messianic synagogues/congregations that value Paul's teachings.

Nothing outside Torah can define Torah. Torah defines itself and must be
the basis for all other scripture. You define Paul's writing by Torah. That
is where most anti-Paulites go wrong.
 
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Pentateuch and Yeshua

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Anyone who wants to be a part of the chosen people (which is a mutual choice, if He wants you to become alert to the importance of Torah, He will lead you to it, and if you choose to heed the call, you do so) can enter the covenant, AFAIK, so yes, I would say so.

I think that the only people excluded from the choice are the seed of the serpent, the purest direct lines of the nephilim who inherently HATE our creator and Torah. There are many theories but the biblical texts, the ultimate authority don't specify, however I believe that they all KNOW that our Creator exists and are very skilled deceivers/actors and play the part of atheists, new agers, false religion pushers, cult leaders etc in order to keep us away from Torah. Some people believe, and I believe that it's possible, that these seed of the serpent are synonymous with what people believe to be called "the illuminati" or global elitists or some other conspirital power that rules the economic, political and religious corporate world from behind the scenes, but we don't really know - all conspiracy theory could be a massive deceptive hoax too. All I do know is that I believe that we are to guard Torah with our lives, salt (preserve the goodness of) the earth and lead a good example for others to follow.
 
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Lulav

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This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.... Shouldn't all Messianics feel the call to do so?
I think what that means is in the overall scheme of things (ie the CF) those that feel called to keep the Torah should. Meaning that there are Jews that don't and those in the Churches that don't; we shouldn't make them feel they are obligated, as it should be done out of love, not for salvation, nor for obligation.

I've seen many in Messianic Congregations that like being there, but also go to church; they have a foot in each camp (kinda like a Bible junkie so to speak). But that doesn't mean they feel called to Torah, to the Messianic worship and community, Yes, but not the Torah itself.

In fact I've heard many proclaim they don't have to keep Torah because they are not Jewish. Which makes it obligatory on Jews by default.

Sure Messianics should want to keep Torah but not be forced or feel obligated to do so. I think a few years back there were some heated discussions on this Forum about if you were Messianic you had to keep Torah, Kosher, Feasts, etc. There are some who are beginners in MJ who haven't gotten that far, like in Acts 10 they need to learn the basics. So the ruling I think is taking that into consideration? and allowing for

All 'levels' of observance without recrimination.
 
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Lulav

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Never said "must"... "Must " implies that we would also dictate "how much" which we know should be up to the individual how much and what type of halacha in obedience.
I was speaking about this post. :)
This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.... Shouldn't all Messianics feel the call to do so?

That's why it says what it says so that no one feels they must, that was the point of my whole post, sorry if it wasn't clear.
 
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