Do Wives Always Have to Say Yes to Sex?

dayhiker said:

I was in the discipleship movement in Kansas City.

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I may have asked you this before.

Did you personally know any of these people?

Eric and Mary Kreuger
Paul Clark
Kim (or Eliot) Levinsohn
Cindy Counterman
Allan Sellis
Barry Segal

ValleyGal said:

Sexual matters can very easily be something to lord over a spouse, use as a weapon or means of manipulation, etc, but to become humble, to serve your spouse in this way can actually become a loving act of Christ-likeness, and a matter of spiritual growth. Jesus did not abuse his power to say no to the cross; I will not abuse my marital (sexual) power to say no to my husband. No woman should - especially when the relationship needs attention.

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How about a case where the wife was repeatedly sexually abused in grade school and junior high? Do you mean that she has to endure flashbacks and relive that horror on a regular basis?

And don't go into the whole "then why did she get married" question. If she had been properly abstinent, then that issue may not show itself until the wedding night or after. (getting back into the whole sex thing)

Is she not allowed to say NO on an ongoing basis?

DaveW-Ohev said:

How about a case where the wife was repeatedly sexually abused in grade school and junior high? Do you mean that she has to endure flashbacks and relive that horror on a regular basis?

And don't go into the whole "then why did she get married" question. If she had been properly abstinent, then that issue may not show itself until the wedding night or after. (getting back into the whole sex thing)

Is she not allowed to say NO on an ongoing basis?

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A woman who has flashbacks, etc, should talk with her husband and if he has any compassion at all, he would be understanding so as not to abuse his power in the relationship, and then it would be by mutual consent. She should also go for therapy because eventually, no sex at all is terrible for a marriage and will come between them....resentments build, etc.

ValleyGal said:

A woman who has flashbacks, etc, should talk with her husband and if he has any compassion at all, he would be understanding so as not to abuse his power in the relationship,

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I agree

She should also go for therapy because eventually, no sex at all is terrible for a marriage and will come between them....resentments build, etc.

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Not sure if I agree on this or not. To me if the guy starts building up resentments he is less of a man than he should be. We are to follow the example of our Lord:

"He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth." Isa 53.7

I would say that she would do well to do so, but the choice is hers.

DaveW-Ohev said:

I agree

Not sure if I agree on this or not. To me if the guy starts building up resentments he is less of a man than he should be. We are to follow the example of our Lord:

"He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth." Isa 53.7

I would say that she would do well to do so, but the choice is hers.

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Perhaps so, although I see it time and time again on forums where one spouse resents the other because the other does not meet their sexual needs. I think when it comes to human interactions, we have much influence over our spouse - so what we do affects our spouse to the degree they allow us to. Additionally, it would also depend on the maturity of the spouse whose needs are not being met. The nature of the marriage covenant implies a sexual expectation within the marriage. It's implied, the nature of the relationship. So if one does not meet the other's needs in that way, they are not living up to the marriage covenant. Of course things can happen where one or the other is unable, and if both sides are mature and care about each other, they will work it out in a manner that is suitable to the both. It is the selfish, immature, flesh-occupied, uncaring or unwilling-to-talk-about-it people who will likely run into resentments and eventually marriage problems. Jmo

I don't know I have been really trying to connect with my African culture. I've tried to move away from the individualism and move towards a community centered train of thinking where the community always comes first. What I believe that a woman and a man should desire to please their spouse before their desire to please themselves. Anything else is to individual about only one person to be positive for a marriage.

Also because the devil tempts marriages when the two haven't come together. May not be cheating it may be a disconnect, feeling of living with a roommate and or just feeling rejected. Those emotions and negative feelings to me are enough to say it's wrong. When people hear that scripture often times the first reaction is "so he has a right to cheat on me" the sad part is it shows just how much that person cares about myself.

Me myself I'm moving my family towards sacrificing for each other.

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

Women can do whatever they want with their body, it doesn't belong to their husbands or their fathers.

Questions like these seem to indicate that women have no sex drive, they obviously do. Men and women both have sex drives of about the same intensity, so long as coercion is not taking place there's no reason to think that anyone will be starved for attention.

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Women can do whatever they want to with their bodies - only applies to abortions.

GraceDriven said:

Women can do whatever they want to with their bodies - only applies to abortions.

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What do you mean?

ValleyGal said:

I see it time and time again on forums where one spouse resents the other because the other does not meet their sexual needs.

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I think that comes from a combination of false understandings and false assumptions and expectations.

For the 2300 years prior to 1900 ad, western society considered women to be asexual - having no physical desires and no mechanism for sexual release ([bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]). That was from the father of western medicine, Hippocrates, who wrote that circa 400 bc.

OTOH, Jewish culture (which is more eastern in orientation) knew and understood women's sexuality back to at least the reign of Solomon. (900 bc) It was their position (the understanding of the NT writers) that sex was a wife's RIGHT and a husband's RESPONSIBILITY. If you read the first century Jewish texts, they considered a husband's satisfaction to be of secondary importance. But the wife's satisfaction was paramount and even the minimum required frequency was written right into the text of the Ketubah, or marriage contract. In many situations it was daily. And that was enforceable in courts of law.

So there is little scriptural support for a husband building up resentment for lack of sex.

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

What do you mean?

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So it does not get taken out of text...... It's funny how society see's one thing okay and not another. Abortion comes to mind.

My body belongs to me.

There is so many double standards in this country I don't even know where to begin.

GraceDriven said:

So it does not get taken out of text...... It's funny how society see's one thing okay and not another. Abortion comes to mind.

My body belongs to me.

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Oh that is commonly said with regards to abortions, family planning and women's health. I haven't found an instance of "her body belongs to her" that I didn't agree wholeheartedly. It is not the place of anyone to tell a woman that she must carry a pregnancy and give birth to a child even if she doesn't want to. Albeit, I don't think that people should be altogether flippant with the idea of responsibility.

GraceDriven said:

There is so many double standards in this country I don't even know where to begin.

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I'm going to say I think in this country the men have a harsher moral judgement. If a man feels like he would never deny his wife and that it's wrong to deny his spouse anything.......he can't be with a woman that doesn't feel like that it's unfair to him.

Yes there are double standards some allow even women to be unkind people.

Avniel said:

I think in this country the men have a harsher moral judgement.

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Judgement by those men or against those men?

If a man feels like he would never deny his wife and that it's wrong to deny his spouse anything.......he can't be with a woman that doesn't feel like that it's unfair to him.

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Why not? Explain yourself here.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Judgement by those men or against those men?

Why not? Explain yourself here.

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Against these men I mean when you compare ray rice to jay z in the elevator it's certainly two different standards.


It unfair because they have two different levels of sacrifice. If I'm a giving person and if I worked a 12 hr shift came home and my wife wanted sex and gave it to her should I not expect the same. If I'm tired and my wife wants to speak and I stay up and go to work half dead, should I not get that in return? If you deny a spouse that wouldn't deny you that's taking advantage in my opinion.

DaveW-Ohev said:

I think that comes from a combination of false understandings and false assumptions and expectations.

For the 2300 years prior to 1900 ad, western society considered women to be asexual - having no physical desires and no mechanism for sexual release ([bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]). That was from the father of western medicine, Hippocrates, who wrote that circa 400 bc.

OTOH, Jewish culture (which is more eastern in orientation) knew and understood women's sexuality back to at least the reign of Solomon. (900 bc) It was their position (the understanding of the NT writers) that sex was a wife's RIGHT and a husband's RESPONSIBILITY. If you read the first century Jewish texts, they considered a husband's satisfaction to be of secondary importance. But the wife's satisfaction was paramount and even the minimum required frequency was written right into the text of the Ketubah, or marriage contract. In many situations it was daily. And that was enforceable in courts of law.

So there is little scriptural support for a husband building up resentment for lack of sex.

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Since the context of the OP is current and not historical, I can only think in terms of this culture and at this time - it has been known since well before the 60's that women are sexual, and quite capable of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. I think, rather, that resentments build when one has a higher libido than the other and does not feel their needs are being met by the lower-libido spouse. And of course there wouldn't be scriptural support for this resentment because it is rooted in the flesh and in the ego (self).

Going along with your assertion that sex is a wife's right and a man's responsibility, that very well may be true, but if we take scripture as a whole, the emphasis is on men and women both becoming more like Christ, it is on the mutual and reciprocal love relationship of Jesus and the church, it is on loving like Jesus loves, which means pouring yourself out for the sake of the beloved. It would be a good idea for men and women to take this principle into the bedroom (or living room, laundry room, shower, car, etc) as well, where loving spouses will meet their partner's needs as far as it depends on them. Perhaps the women's "right" to sex was written in because it was already assumed culturally that a man had a right to sex and at the age of marrying would likely "require" this on a frequently regular basis. Today it might be fairly safe to assume (because to my knowledge sex is not written into the marriage contract) that sex will be decided on by both spouses - remember there is such a thing as marital rape, but a lot of people also use sex as a means of marital manipulation, control, and as a weapon of power within the marriage. I think this is part of why we have the passage that says a wife's body is no longer only her own but also belongs to her husband; likewise, a husband's body is no longer his own, but also belongs to his wife.

Either spouse has a right to say no, but "marriage" implies a sexual obligation or responsibility to our spouse, and if we bring in spiritual concepts like selfless, serving and sacrificial love, we can grow spiritually in the bedroom with our spouse.

ValleyGal said:

Since the context of the OP is current and not historical, I can only think in terms of this culture and at this time - it has been known since well before the 60's that women are sexual, and quite capable of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. I think, rather, that resentments build when one has a higher libido than the other and does not feel their needs are being met by the lower-libido spouse. And of course there wouldn't be scriptural support for this resentment because it is rooted in the flesh and in the ego (self).

Going along with your assertion that sex is a wife's right and a man's responsibility, that very well may be true, but if we take scripture as a whole, the emphasis is on men and women both becoming more like Christ, it is on the mutual and reciprocal love relationship of Jesus and the church, it is on loving like Jesus loves, which means pouring yourself out for the sake of the beloved. It would be a good idea for men and women to take this principle into the bedroom (or living room, laundry room, shower, car, etc) as well, where loving spouses will meet their partner's needs as far as it depends on them. Perhaps the women's "right" to sex was written in because it was already assumed culturally that a man had a right to sex and at the age of marrying would likely "require" this on a frequently regular basis. Today it might be fairly safe to assume (because to my knowledge sex is not written into the marriage contract) that sex will be decided on by both spouses - remember there is such a thing as marital rape, but a lot of people also use sex as a means of marital manipulation, control, and as a weapon of power within the marriage. I think this is part of why we have the passage that says a wife's body is no longer only her own but also belongs to her husband; likewise, a husband's body is no longer his own, but also belongs to his wife.

Either spouse has a right to say no, but "marriage" implies a sexual obligation or responsibility to our spouse, and if we bring in spiritual concepts like selfless, serving and sacrificial love, we can grow spiritually in the bedroom with our spouse.

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Right, I doubt anyone is saying that if a husband wants sex his wife must comply. It's not about the answer, it's about how you feel person.

Avniel said:

if I worked a 12 hr shift came home and my wife wanted sex and gave it to her should I not expect the same.

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Do you not know we are to give and expect NOTHING in return?

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.

If it is that way with unbelievers and outsiders, HOW MUCH MORE to believers and family members?

If you deny a spouse that wouldn't deny you that's taking advantage in my opinion.

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And does not Paul in 1 Corinthians say if others take advantage of us; it is better to be wronged than to make a deal out of it?

1 Corinthians 6:7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated?

The way I read these texts is that if we demand what we want or even what we need, we are already operating in the wrong spirit and mentality.

Are we REALLY serious about living life biblically?