Why do people believe in a Rapture?

BABerean2 said in post 4186:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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Regarding John 5:28-29, note that it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be 2 (still-unfulfilled) physical resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (original Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the 1st and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the 1st resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled, 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), will be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

iamlamad said in post 4187:

THERE IS NO gathering in Rev. 19! (except for God's "guests.")

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Note that Revelation 19 is Jesus' 2nd coming, which is when other passages show he will rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming, before he goes to war (Revelation 19:11-21), he will rapture (gather together) the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:14-30), and marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-13).

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iamlamad said in post 4198:

I am comforted with the thought of "ever being with the Lord."

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The comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, but their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their physical bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

iamlamad said in post 4198:

If you mean by this that there will be only ONE MOMENT in time for all righteous dead to arise, I disagree. I cannot fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into Rev. 19.

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Note that the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Similarly, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

iamlamad said in post 4198:

I cannot fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into Rev. 19.

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1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

iamlamad said in post 4198:

If you mean by this that there will be only ONE MOMENT in time for all righteous dead to arise, I disagree. I cannot fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into Rev. 19. It is like a square peg in a round hole. It fits perfectly into Rev. 6.

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The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

tanzel said:

Lets Continue..all your question will be answer as we move forward...In Daniel 7 you will see the next nation that took the kingdom from Persian. This is the Greek Empire, headed up by Alexander the Great. The four heads on this beast represent Alexander’s four generals. The wings represent the swiftness of Alexander the great taking down the Persian Empire. So if we add all the heads to this point we have six heads.

Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Let’s see in recorded history who took the kingdom from the Persian. This is from the Funk and Wagnall’s encyclopedia.

DARIUS III, called Codomannus (380?-330 BC), king of Persia (336-330 BC), great grandson of Darius II. He was placed on the throne by the eunuch Bagoas (d. 336? BC), following the latter's assassinations of Artaxerxes III (r. 358?-338 BC), who had reigned for about 20 years, and Arses (died c. 336 BC), who had reigned for two years; Darius, in turn, killed Bagoas. In the course of his 6-year reign Darius III led the Persian army against the forces of Alexander the Great of Macedonia but was defeated at the battles of Issus in 333 BC and Gaugamela in 331 BC. He was killed by one of his own satraps while fleeing from Gaugamela.

Let’s return to the Bible, and see this battle between Darius III with the Persian army against the forces of Alexander the Great. Daniel is having this dream long before this battle took place. Let’s take a look and see if world history lines up with Bible.

Daniel 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first. 2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. 3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

These horns represent the Medo Persian Empire. The reason one horn is high than the other is; the Persian Empire was stronger than the Medes. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Now here comes the Greek Empire, which is represented by the goat.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

This notable horn is Alexander.

6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

The horn that was broken was Alexander the Great. Alexander dies at an early age and his four generals fought over the kingdom dividing it into four nations, these are the 4 notable horns. Now see how the Bible interprets itself.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. 18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

You see there are no mysteries in the Bible, all you have to do is continue to read and all your questions will be answered. Now, let’s read about Alexander and his 4 generals and what they did to possess the kingdom. (1999 Grolier Interactive Inc.)

Alexander III, king of Macedonia, called "the Great," conquered the Persian Empire (see Persia, ancient) and annexed it to Macedonia. The son of Philip II and Olympias, he was born in 356 © and brought up as crown prince. Taught for a time by Aristotle, he acquired a love for Homer and an infatuation with the heroic age. When Philip divorced Olympias to marry a younger princess, Alexander fled. Although allowed to return, he remained isolated and insecure until Philip's mysterious assassination about June 336. In the autumn of 324, at Ecbatana, Alexander lost his boyhood friend Hephaestion, by then his grand vizier probably the only person he had ever genuinely loved. The loss was irreparable.

After deep mourning, he embarked on a winter campaign in the mountains, then returned to Babylon, where he prepared an expedition for the conquest of Arabia. He died in June 323 without designating a successor. His death opened the anarchic age of the Diadochi. Alexander at once became a legend to the peoples that had seen him pass like a hurricane.

Alexander the great had no successor, his four generals took over. Below you see more than four, prophesy can not be broken. You will see that these Generals fought for the kingdom, and 4 were victorious.

The Greek word Diadochi, meaning "successors," was introduced by the 19th-century German historian Johann Gustav Droysen to designate the first generation of successors of Alexander the Great (d. 323 ©). Chief among them were Antigonus I, Antipater, Demetrius I Poliorcetes, Lysimachus, Perdiccas, Ptolemy I, and Seleucus I. This generation is taken to end with Seleucus' death in 281 ©.

The Macedonian Antigonus I, b. c.382 ©, was one of the successors (Diadochi) of Alexander the Great. He was governor of Phrygia under Alexander. After Alexander's death (323), he joined the alliance against Perdiccas, killed Eumenes after a long war, and by 316 controlled the eastern provinces of the empire. Trying to conquer the western portion, he was opposed by the other Diadochi, although they were generally disunited. After a naval victory over Ptolemy I by his son Demetrius I Poliorcetes, he and Demetrius proclaimed themselves kings (307).


Their opponents also assumed royal titles, thus ending the nominal unity of the empire. Successful in the field, Antigonus was unsuccessful in his diplomatic efforts to keep his enemies isolated. Their alliance defeated and killed him at Ipsus in Anatolia in 301.

Lysimachus, c.360-281 ©, a senior Macedonian officer under Alexander the Great, was assigned rule over Thrace after Alexander's death in 323. He pacified the natives, then joined the alliance against Antigonus I, and in 306-305 assumed the royal title. Expanding his power to the north, he took part in the final victory (301) over Antigonus and gained most of Anatolia. In alliance with Pyrrhus of Epirus, he drove Demetrius I Poliorcetes from Macedonia, then expelled Pyrrhus and won sole control of Macedonia and northern Greece. Lysimachus was weakened by court intrigues; he was attacked by Seleucus I Nicator and died in battle. Ptolemy I, c.367-283 ©, created the political and military foundations of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt (323-30 ©).

When Alexander the Great died in 323 ©, Ptolemy, one of Alexander's leading Macedonian generals, became satrap (governor) of Egypt. In 304 he declared himself king.

Seleucus I Nicator ("the Conqueror"), b. c.358 ©, was the greatest of the Diadochi, or successors, of Alexander the Great. He fought under Alexander and after the king's death (323) received the province of Babylonia. He fled to Egypt after Antigonus I Monophthalmus conquered Eumenes in 316, but in 312, he regained Babylonia with a handful of men and gradually won from Antigonus all of the Macedonian empire's provinces east of the Euphrates. He took the royal title in 305.

Perdiccas, d. 321 ©, one of Alexander the Great's generals, was among the Diadochi seeking control of the Macedonian empire after Alexander's death. His rivals, including Ptolemy I, Antipater, and Antigonus I, allied against him. Perdiccas was killed in Egypt by mutineers while marching against Ptolemy.

In 322, Antipater defeated a Greek rebellion and had some anti-Macedonians (notably Demosthenes) executed. Taking part in the attack on Perdiccas, he was appointed regent after Perdiccas's death (321). He took the joint kings Philip III and Alexander IV back from Asia to Macedonia, where he died. He was the last regent to be recognized by all the Diadochi, or successors of Alexander the Great. Demetrius conquered Greece as a "liberator" in 304-02, but he was partly to blame for Antigonus's defeat and death (301) at Ipsus. Retaining control of the sea, he seized (294) the throne of Macedonia after some years of confused fighting, but he soon made himself unpopular and lost the kingdom to Lysimachus and Pyrrhus. Invading Anatolia in 287, he had to surrender to Seleucus I, and he drank himself to death in captivity.

Cassander, c.358-297 ©, king of Macedonia, was son of the regent Antipater and one of the diadochi, or successors, of Alexander the Great. Allied with Antigonus I, he secured control of Macedonia and most of Greece by 316. He murdered Alexander's mother (Olympias), widow (Roxana), and son (Alexander IV) before assuming the royal title in 305. He joined the coalition that defeated Antigonus at Ipsus in 301. Cassander founded Thessaloniki and rebuilt Thebes.

Antigonus was the strongest of them all. But he was defeated by an alliance of the other generals. Perdiccas was also killed. Demetrius lost the kingdom to Lysimachus and he drank himself to death. Thus you have Cassander, Seleucus I, Ptolemy I and Lysimachus. These are the four heads on the Leopard; the Horn that was broken was Alexander the Great. Daniel 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. Prophecy can not be broken.

Next is the last head...peace in Jesus name

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No questions at this time. Continue at your pace. Thanks again and God Bless.

tanzel said:

Lets Continue..all your question will be answer as we move forward...In Daniel 7 you will see the next nation that took the kingdom from Persian. This is the Greek Empire, headed up by Alexander the Great. The four heads on this beast represent Alexander’s four generals. The wings represent the swiftness of Alexander the great taking down the Persian Empire. So if we add all the heads to this point we have six heads.

Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Let’s see in recorded history who took the kingdom from the Persian. This is from the Funk and Wagnall’s encyclopedia.

DARIUS III, called Codomannus (380?-330 BC), king of Persia (336-330 BC), great grandson of Darius II. He was placed on the throne by the eunuch Bagoas (d. 336? BC), following the latter's assassinations of Artaxerxes III (r. 358?-338 BC), who had reigned for about 20 years, and Arses (died c. 336 BC), who had reigned for two years; Darius, in turn, killed Bagoas. In the course of his 6-year reign Darius III led the Persian army against the forces of Alexander the Great of Macedonia but was defeated at the battles of Issus in 333 BC and Gaugamela in 331 BC. He was killed by one of his own satraps while fleeing from Gaugamela.

Let’s return to the Bible, and see this battle between Darius III with the Persian army against the forces of Alexander the Great. Daniel is having this dream long before this battle took place. Let’s take a look and see if world history lines up with Bible.

Daniel 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first. 2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. 3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

These horns represent the Medo Persian Empire. The reason one horn is high than the other is; the Persian Empire was stronger than the Medes. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Now here comes the Greek Empire, which is represented by the goat.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

This notable horn is Alexander.

6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

The horn that was broken was Alexander the Great. Alexander dies at an early age and his four generals fought over the kingdom dividing it into four nations, these are the 4 notable horns. Now see how the Bible interprets itself.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. 18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

You see there are no mysteries in the Bible, all you have to do is continue to read and all your questions will be answered. Now, let’s read about Alexander and his 4 generals and what they did to possess the kingdom. (1999 Grolier Interactive Inc.)

Alexander III, king of Macedonia, called "the Great," conquered the Persian Empire (see Persia, ancient) and annexed it to Macedonia. The son of Philip II and Olympias, he was born in 356 © and brought up as crown prince. Taught for a time by Aristotle, he acquired a love for Homer and an infatuation with the heroic age. When Philip divorced Olympias to marry a younger princess, Alexander fled. Although allowed to return, he remained isolated and insecure until Philip's mysterious assassination about June 336. In the autumn of 324, at Ecbatana, Alexander lost his boyhood friend Hephaestion, by then his grand vizier probably the only person he had ever genuinely loved. The loss was irreparable.

After deep mourning, he embarked on a winter campaign in the mountains, then returned to Babylon, where he prepared an expedition for the conquest of Arabia. He died in June 323 without designating a successor. His death opened the anarchic age of the Diadochi. Alexander at once became a legend to the peoples that had seen him pass like a hurricane.

Alexander the great had no successor, his four generals took over. Below you see more than four, prophesy can not be broken. You will see that these Generals fought for the kingdom, and 4 were victorious.

The Greek word Diadochi, meaning "successors," was introduced by the 19th-century German historian Johann Gustav Droysen to designate the first generation of successors of Alexander the Great (d. 323 ©). Chief among them were Antigonus I, Antipater, Demetrius I Poliorcetes, Lysimachus, Perdiccas, Ptolemy I, and Seleucus I. This generation is taken to end with Seleucus' death in 281 ©.

The Macedonian Antigonus I, b. c.382 ©, was one of the successors (Diadochi) of Alexander the Great. He was governor of Phrygia under Alexander. After Alexander's death (323), he joined the alliance against Perdiccas, killed Eumenes after a long war, and by 316 controlled the eastern provinces of the empire. Trying to conquer the western portion, he was opposed by the other Diadochi, although they were generally disunited. After a naval victory over Ptolemy I by his son Demetrius I Poliorcetes, he and Demetrius proclaimed themselves kings (307).


Their opponents also assumed royal titles, thus ending the nominal unity of the empire. Successful in the field, Antigonus was unsuccessful in his diplomatic efforts to keep his enemies isolated. Their alliance defeated and killed him at Ipsus in Anatolia in 301.

Lysimachus, c.360-281 ©, a senior Macedonian officer under Alexander the Great, was assigned rule over Thrace after Alexander's death in 323. He pacified the natives, then joined the alliance against Antigonus I, and in 306-305 assumed the royal title. Expanding his power to the north, he took part in the final victory (301) over Antigonus and gained most of Anatolia. In alliance with Pyrrhus of Epirus, he drove Demetrius I Poliorcetes from Macedonia, then expelled Pyrrhus and won sole control of Macedonia and northern Greece. Lysimachus was weakened by court intrigues; he was attacked by Seleucus I Nicator and died in battle. Ptolemy I, c.367-283 ©, created the political and military foundations of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt (323-30 ©).

When Alexander the Great died in 323 ©, Ptolemy, one of Alexander's leading Macedonian generals, became satrap (governor) of Egypt. In 304 he declared himself king.

Seleucus I Nicator ("the Conqueror"), b. c.358 ©, was the greatest of the Diadochi, or successors, of Alexander the Great. He fought under Alexander and after the king's death (323) received the province of Babylonia. He fled to Egypt after Antigonus I Monophthalmus conquered Eumenes in 316, but in 312, he regained Babylonia with a handful of men and gradually won from Antigonus all of the Macedonian empire's provinces east of the Euphrates. He took the royal title in 305.

Perdiccas, d. 321 ©, one of Alexander the Great's generals, was among the Diadochi seeking control of the Macedonian empire after Alexander's death. His rivals, including Ptolemy I, Antipater, and Antigonus I, allied against him. Perdiccas was killed in Egypt by mutineers while marching against Ptolemy.

In 322, Antipater defeated a Greek rebellion and had some anti-Macedonians (notably Demosthenes) executed. Taking part in the attack on Perdiccas, he was appointed regent after Perdiccas's death (321). He took the joint kings Philip III and Alexander IV back from Asia to Macedonia, where he died. He was the last regent to be recognized by all the Diadochi, or successors of Alexander the Great. Demetrius conquered Greece as a "liberator" in 304-02, but he was partly to blame for Antigonus's defeat and death (301) at Ipsus. Retaining control of the sea, he seized (294) the throne of Macedonia after some years of confused fighting, but he soon made himself unpopular and lost the kingdom to Lysimachus and Pyrrhus. Invading Anatolia in 287, he had to surrender to Seleucus I, and he drank himself to death in captivity.

Cassander, c.358-297 ©, king of Macedonia, was son of the regent Antipater and one of the diadochi, or successors, of Alexander the Great. Allied with Antigonus I, he secured control of Macedonia and most of Greece by 316. He murdered Alexander's mother (Olympias), widow (Roxana), and son (Alexander IV) before assuming the royal title in 305. He joined the coalition that defeated Antigonus at Ipsus in 301. Cassander founded Thessaloniki and rebuilt Thebes.

Antigonus was the strongest of them all. But he was defeated by an alliance of the other generals. Perdiccas was also killed. Demetrius lost the kingdom to Lysimachus and he drank himself to death. Thus you have Cassander, Seleucus I, Ptolemy I and Lysimachus. These are the four heads on the Leopard; the Horn that was broken was Alexander the Great. Daniel 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. Prophecy can not be broken.

Next is the last head...peace in Jesus name

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Good History lesson! : -)))

iamlamad said:

I did not make assumptions. I knew you knew when the Holy City would come down. What amazes me is that you can imagine John 14 being about that time way past the 1000 year reign and after the white throne judgment. Of course I understand it MUST BE SO to hold onto your posttrib belief! Jesus was just telling them about Him ascending back to heaven.

I think you MISSED the context:

John 13
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Verses in question

Rev. 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

The CONTEXT of Jesus going to prepare places is in fact HIS GOING. We both know WHERE He went. He went to His Father's house.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So when Jesus said, "where I am" and "there ye may be also" IN CONTEXT would be heaven. He WENT, He did not come.
I think it is a HUGE stretch to make this about the heavenly city coming down.

In the pretrib scenario, we have a home prepared. We will be there for the 7 years. When the millennial reign comes, we will have a place to go when we are not busy judging. Perhaps we could call it a "vacation home." In your scenario, we would have no real home of our own until after the 1000 year reign. I think my theory fits scripture.

I am comforted with the thought of "ever being with the Lord." I am conforted and can comfort others knowing we will be caught up before the Day of the Lord. I am not sure what comfort it would be to know you would be staying here and being overcome by the Beast. Somehow that is just not a comfort.

Now let’s look at John 14:3. You claim the context is HIM going to heaven. You insert that because of your “preconceived glasses”. The first part of the verse says He is going to heaven

Thank you! Verses in chapter 13 are about Him going to heaven, and 14:4 is about Him going. So the verses we are discussing are enclosed by verses about Him going. No preconceptions here! It is in black and white.

1: going to heaven
2. Going to make houses for you
3. I will come and take you to myself.

How can you make this about the houses prepared coming down? If the FIRST readers of John read this, NOT KNOWING about Revelation at all, what would THEY think about these verses? I submit they were NEVER come up with the idea that heaven would come down to them! The theme of this passage is his going. Sorry, but you are the one stretching this one!

He will come again approximately 2000 years later and receive us to himself.

But the readers of John THEN, when John wrote, did not know that! All they knew (in context) was they He was going, they could not follow, and He would prepare houses for them in "My Father's house." They did not know about Armageddon. They did not know about His coming on a white horse. All they knew at that time was that He was going, and they were not going with Him. I believe they DID know there would be a time that Jesus would set up an earthly kingdom. I doubt seriously if any suspected heaven would come to them. When Jesus mentioned "His Father's house, their minds went to HEAVEN. Then when He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself," their mind was still on heaven. I am convinced of it.

it is you who assumes we all will return.
It is not an assumption: it is written that "He comes with 10,000's of His saints." It is you who assume He comes with 10,000's of His saints who have died and He is only bringing their spirits.

You also assume when He receives us we are immeadiately to go live in those mansions.
It is obvious to me in the context written. I am convinced it is what the first readers of John's book thought.

since there is no trip to heaven mentioned in 1 Corin. 15 anywhere in the entire chapter, so there cannot be one right!!
Touché! It works both ways.

There is only one resurrection of the righteous dead yet to be fulfilled in scripture. 1 Corin 15 is that resurrection.
If you mean by this that there will be only ONE MOMENT in time for all righteous dead to arise, I disagree. I cannot fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into Rev. 19. It is like a square peg in a round hole. It fits perfectly into Rev. 6. Again this is a point that simply cannot be proven. People have been arguing this point for years. All we can prove is that there WILL BE a resurrection of the righteous.

Oh yes I can. 2 Thess 2:3, if you leave it alone and don’t insert pretrib doctrine where there is none. The coming referred to in in 2 Thess 2 is the same one referred to in 1 Thess 4, there is no other.
Sorry, but 2 Thes. 2 only says what you wish it to say when apostasia is translated as KJV did it. It does not say what you think it says when we translate that one word another way. This is not inserting, it is exegeting. We just disagree on what the intent of the Author is here.

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departing occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

I wonder, if you had read it this way years ago, before you had ANY opinions, how you would have believed it? Or, I could say it this way, if the KJV had translated it this way, how many would have guessed on a falling away from truth - especially when the theme is the gathering? Here is a "Hebrew roots" translation I have never seen before:

2Thessalonians 2:1-10:
Concerning the coming of Adonu Yahshua HaMashiach and our being
gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily
unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to
have come from us, saying that the Day of YHWH has already come.
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come
until the [great departure] occurs proton [first in the sequence of
events] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to
destruction.
(Note, this is copied from a web site, not from a bible. Someone else could have added for emphasis.)

if Paul had stated the theme like this:

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of the great falling away.... OR:
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the great falling away that will come first......

Then most would immediately think if they saw "there will come a departing first..." as a falling away from truth or sound doctrine.

However, Paul wrote it this way:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him...
...except there come the departing first...

I think these two fit together far better than the theme being the gathering and then go one with the passage and never get to the gathering.

We have beat this horse to death, and you still don't see it! ;-)

You want to make an issue out of wording in Rev 19 and ignore it in 1 Corin 15.
I certainly make an issue out of rearranging Rev 19 to make it fit! WHAT am I ignoring in 1 Cor. 15?

it saddens me we can’t just let the bible say what it says. You know as well as I do in context the mystery in 1 Corin 15 is the mystery of the resurrection. No it is not! "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..." the MYSTERY is that some will not die but be CHANGED. And that, my friend happens at the rapture.

Prove that it is and you can even use 2 verses if you like. The truth is, we need to take all verses on a subject, not just one or two! I don't think even you would disagree that 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4 are sister passages. Therefore, we take them TOGETHER, not separately. 1 Cor. 15 does not show any kind of timing, 1 Thes. does.

Because there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead.
You make this statement as if 100% of the church believed it and as if you could prove it! Sorry, neither is true.

Jesus only spoke of one The church was a MYSTERY at the time. There would not have been another coming unless Israel rejected Jesus and God turned to the Gentiles. But since they DID reject their own Messiah as a nation, God DID turn to the Gentiles, and the church age is pretty much of a parenthesis: rapture included.

There is no mystery rapture of the church!!!! Yet, when Paul wrote in 1 Cor. about some not dying but changing, he called it a mystery. There is NOTHING in the bible about living people being suddenly changed UNTIL PAUL WROTE IT.

Just show me in scripture where it is described as you believe it will be . One verse will do.
You already KNOW that John wrote of the marriage before he wrote of Jesus on the white horse. You wish for that to be reversed. John is giving us an extremely brief outline in Rev. 19. When he tells us it is time for the marriage, he did not mean later! He meant RIGHT THEN in that verse.

I can make my case without assuming, or adding to what scripture actually says, or interpreting the desired meaning into existence, or rearranging, can you? No you can't! You are dreaming! You have to rearrange Rev. 19. You have to assume 2 thes. 2 really means what you think it means. You have to assume the Matthew 24 gathering is the same a Paul's gathering. You have to assume the Day of the Lord begins when Jesus comes. Indeed, you make many assumptions.

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I did not make assumptions. I knew you knew when the Holy City would come down. What amazes me is that you can imagine John 14 being about that time way past the 1000 year reign and after the white throne judgment. Of course I understand it MUST BE SO to hold onto your posttrib belief! Jesus was just telling them about Him ascending back to heaven.


In your version there is a 2000 year wait before entering the mansions, in what scripture tells us there is a 3000 year wait, come on Lamad what’s another 1000 years.


Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Tell me Lamad, when does the above event take place and who is entering in?


I think you MISSED the context:


John 13

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.


37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.


38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.


When Peter was killed he did go to be with Jesus. This passage in no way supports a pretrib rapture.


Verses in question


Rev. 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


Typo, John 14:4, it happens to all of us.


The CONTEXT of Jesus going to prepare places is in fact HIS GOING. We both know WHERE He went. He went to His Father's house.


2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


So when Jesus said, "where I am" and "there ye may be also" IN CONTEXT would be heaven. He WENT, He did not come.

I think it is a HUGE stretch to make this about the heavenly city coming down.


When He said that, He was here, when He comes He will be here . All I am saying is the text does not say He is going back, you assume that. When He comes here we will be with Him, here , in the millennium here, and in the New Jerusalem here. That’s what it says. No stretch. In the mouth of two or three. If the way you read this is correct where is another supporting text?


In the pretrib scenario, we have a home prepared. We will be there for the 7 years.

You assume the 7 year stay, show the scripture.

When the millennial reign comes, we will have a place to go when we are not busy judging. Perhaps we could call it a "vacation home." In your scenario, we would have no real home of our own until after the 1000 year reign. I think my theory fits scripture.

I’m sure in the millennial reign Jesus will not forget about housing. You theory only fits because you force it to. At least you admit it’s a theory!

I am comforted with the thought of "ever being with the Lord." I am conforted and can comfort others knowing we will be caught up before the Day of the Lord. I am not sure what comfort it would be to know you would be staying here and being overcome by the Beast. Somehow that is just not a comfort.

The comfort is eternal life with Jesus no matter what we have to endure on the way there? Do you believe you were promised a physical escape better than the one Peter or Paul had. You might want to rethink that one.

Now let’s look at John 14:3. You claim the context is HIM going to heaven. You insert that because of your “preconceived glasses”. The first part of the verse says He is going to heaven

Thank you! Verses in chapter 13 are about Him going to heaven, and 14:4 is about Him going.

He already did that. It is also about Him coming back and doesn’t say He will go back again.

So the verses we are discussing are enclosed by verses about Him going. No preconceptions here! It is in black and white.

1: going to heaven

Yes He went

2. Going to make houses for you

Yes He is.

3. I will come and take you to myself.

He will come again approximately 2000 years later and receive us to himself.

John 14:3b “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

See you had to change “receive” to “take”. Again, when He comes He will be here and we will be here with Him. The problem for your theory here is, He comes “Immediately after the tribulation” Matt 24:29. “30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:” Matt 24:30. “31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” Matt 24:31. This is when he comes John 14, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2 and Rev 11 Rev 14 and yes Rev 19.


How can you make this about the houses prepared coming down? If the FIRST readers of John read this, NOT KNOWING about Revelation at all, what would THEY think about these verses? I submit they were NEVER come up with the idea that heaven would come down to them! The theme of this passage is his going. Sorry, but you are the one stretching this one!

You cannot interpret scripture based on what you think the “FIRST readers” thought. You accuse me of stretching?????

But the readers of John THEN, when John wrote, did not know that! All they knew (in context) was they He was going, they could not follow, and He would prepare houses for them in "My Father's house." They did not know about Armageddon.

They did know Matt 24:29 “ Immediately after the tribulation” they heard Jesus say it in person.

They did not know about His coming on a white horse. All they knew at that time was that He was going, and they were not going with Him. I believe they DID know there would be a time that Jesus would set up an earthly kingdom. I doubt seriously if any suspected heaven would come to them. When Jesus mentioned "His Father's house, their minds went to HEAVEN. Then when He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself," their mind was still on heaven. I am convinced of it.

Ok, your convinced, but it still does not say anything about going back.

It is not an assumption: it is written that "He comes with 10,000's of His saints." It is you who assume He comes with 10,000's of His saints who have died and He is only bringing their spirits.

No assumption, that is what we are told in scripture about those in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

It is you who assumes some of these groups in heaven are raptured, resurrected saints with no clearly stated proof as I have just given you.

It is obvious to me in the context written. I am convinced it is what the first readers of John's book thought.

iamlamad said:

I did not make assumptions. I knew you knew when the Holy City would come down. What amazes me is that you can imagine John 14 being about that time way past the 1000 year reign and after the white throne judgment. Of course I understand it MUST BE SO to hold onto your posttrib belief! Jesus was just telling them about Him ascending back to heaven.

I think you MISSED the context:

John 13
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Verses in question

Rev. 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

The CONTEXT of Jesus going to prepare places is in fact HIS GOING. We both know WHERE He went. He went to His Father's house.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So when Jesus said, "where I am" and "there ye may be also" IN CONTEXT would be heaven. He WENT, He did not come.
I think it is a HUGE stretch to make this about the heavenly city coming down.

In the pretrib scenario, we have a home prepared. We will be there for the 7 years. When the millennial reign comes, we will have a place to go when we are not busy judging. Perhaps we could call it a "vacation home." In your scenario, we would have no real home of our own until after the 1000 year reign. I think my theory fits scripture.

I am comforted with the thought of "ever being with the Lord." I am conforted and can comfort others knowing we will be caught up before the Day of the Lord. I am not sure what comfort it would be to know you would be staying here and being overcome by the Beast. Somehow that is just not a comfort.

Now let’s look at John 14:3. You claim the context is HIM going to heaven. You insert that because of your “preconceived glasses”. The first part of the verse says He is going to heaven

Thank you! Verses in chapter 13 are about Him going to heaven, and 14:4 is about Him going. So the verses we are discussing are enclosed by verses about Him going. No preconceptions here! It is in black and white.

1: going to heaven
2. Going to make houses for you
3. I will come and take you to myself.

How can you make this about the houses prepared coming down? If the FIRST readers of John read this, NOT KNOWING about Revelation at all, what would THEY think about these verses? I submit they were NEVER come up with the idea that heaven would come down to them! The theme of this passage is his going. Sorry, but you are the one stretching this one!

He will come again approximately 2000 years later and receive us to himself.

But the readers of John THEN, when John wrote, did not know that! All they knew (in context) was they He was going, they could not follow, and He would prepare houses for them in "My Father's house." They did not know about Armageddon. They did not know about His coming on a white horse. All they knew at that time was that He was going, and they were not going with Him. I believe they DID know there would be a time that Jesus would set up an earthly kingdom. I doubt seriously if any suspected heaven would come to them. When Jesus mentioned "His Father's house, their minds went to HEAVEN. Then when He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself," their mind was still on heaven. I am convinced of it.

it is you who assumes we all will return.
It is not an assumption: it is written that "He comes with 10,000's of His saints." It is you who assume He comes with 10,000's of His saints who have died and He is only bringing their spirits.

You also assume when He receives us we are immeadiately to go live in those mansions.
It is obvious to me in the context written. I am convinced it is what the first readers of John's book thought.

since there is no trip to heaven mentioned in 1 Corin. 15 anywhere in the entire chapter, so there cannot be one right!!
Touché! It works both ways.

There is only one resurrection of the righteous dead yet to be fulfilled in scripture. 1 Corin 15 is that resurrection.
If you mean by this that there will be only ONE MOMENT in time for all righteous dead to arise, I disagree. I cannot fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into Rev. 19. It is like a square peg in a round hole. It fits perfectly into Rev. 6. Again this is a point that simply cannot be proven. People have been arguing this point for years. All we can prove is that there WILL BE a resurrection of the righteous.

Oh yes I can. 2 Thess 2:3, if you leave it alone and don’t insert pretrib doctrine where there is none. The coming referred to in in 2 Thess 2 is the same one referred to in 1 Thess 4, there is no other.
Sorry, but 2 Thes. 2 only says what you wish it to say when apostasia is translated as KJV did it. It does not say what you think it says when we translate that one word another way. This is not inserting, it is exegeting. We just disagree on what the intent of the Author is here.

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departing occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

I wonder, if you had read it this way years ago, before you had ANY opinions, how you would have believed it? Or, I could say it this way, if the KJV had translated it this way, how many would have guessed on a falling away from truth - especially when the theme is the gathering? Here is a "Hebrew roots" translation I have never seen before:

2Thessalonians 2:1-10:
Concerning the coming of Adonu Yahshua HaMashiach and our being
gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily
unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to
have come from us, saying that the Day of YHWH has already come.
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come
until the [great departure] occurs proton [first in the sequence of
events] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to
destruction.
(Note, this is copied from a web site, not from a bible. Someone else could have added for emphasis.)

if Paul had stated the theme like this:

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of the great falling away.... OR:
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the great falling away that will come first......

Then most would immediately think if they saw "there will come a departing first..." as a falling away from truth or sound doctrine.

However, Paul wrote it this way:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him...
...except there come the departing first...

I think these two fit together far better than the theme being the gathering and then go one with the passage and never get to the gathering.

We have beat this horse to death, and you still don't see it! ;-)

You want to make an issue out of wording in Rev 19 and ignore it in 1 Corin 15.
I certainly make an issue out of rearranging Rev 19 to make it fit! WHAT am I ignoring in 1 Cor. 15?

it saddens me we can’t just let the bible say what it says. You know as well as I do in context the mystery in 1 Corin 15 is the mystery of the resurrection. No it is not! "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..." the MYSTERY is that some will not die but be CHANGED. And that, my friend happens at the rapture.

Prove that it is and you can even use 2 verses if you like. The truth is, we need to take all verses on a subject, not just one or two! I don't think even you would disagree that 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4 are sister passages. Therefore, we take them TOGETHER, not separately. 1 Cor. 15 does not show any kind of timing, 1 Thes. does.

Because there is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead.
You make this statement as if 100% of the church believed it and as if you could prove it! Sorry, neither is true.

Jesus only spoke of one The church was a MYSTERY at the time. There would not have been another coming unless Israel rejected Jesus and God turned to the Gentiles. But since they DID reject their own Messiah as a nation, God DID turn to the Gentiles, and the church age is pretty much of a parenthesis: rapture included.

There is no mystery rapture of the church!!!! Yet, when Paul wrote in 1 Cor. about some not dying but changing, he called it a mystery. There is NOTHING in the bible about living people being suddenly changed UNTIL PAUL WROTE IT.

Just show me in scripture where it is described as you believe it will be . One verse will do.
You already KNOW that John wrote of the marriage before he wrote of Jesus on the white horse. You wish for that to be reversed. John is giving us an extremely brief outline in Rev. 19. When he tells us it is time for the marriage, he did not mean later! He meant RIGHT THEN in that verse.

I can make my case without assuming, or adding to what scripture actually says, or interpreting the desired meaning into existence, or rearranging, can you? No you can't! You are dreaming! You have to rearrange Rev. 19. You have to assume 2 thes. 2 really means what you think it means. You have to assume the Matthew 24 gathering is the same a Paul's gathering. You have to assume the Day of the Lord begins when Jesus comes. Indeed, you make many assumptions.

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Part 2 Postvieww bold type

Since there is no trip to heaven mentioned in 1 Corin. 15 anywhere in the entire chapter, so there cannot be one right!!

Touché! It works both ways.

Not really , show me one verse that clearly states we go back to heaven. You’ve already claimed John 14 and that is in question . “In the mouth of two or three” surely you can find one more. Really ,you can’t with scripture get the church any higher that the clouds.

There is only one resurrection of the righteous dead yet to be fulfilled in scripture. 1 Corin 15 is that resurrection.

If you mean by this that there will be only ONE MOMENT in time for all righteous dead to arise, I disagree. I cannot fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into Rev. 19. It is like a square peg in a round hole. It fits perfectly into Rev. 6. Again this is a point that simply cannot be proven. People have been arguing this point for years. All we can prove is that there WILL BE a resurrection of the righteous.

1 Corin 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

This is the timing of the resurrection. 1. At His coming. 2. Then cometh the end 3. when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God 4. When he shall have put down all rule and all authority. A perfect description of the second coming. You have to figure out a way to make this passage sound like a pretrib coming , GOOD LUCK! Please don’t try to insert 7 years between verse 23 and 24.


Oh yes I can. 2 Thess 2:3, if you leave it alone and don’t insert pretrib doctrine where there is none. The coming referred to in in 2 Thess 2 is the same one referred to in 1 Thess 4, there is no other.

Sorry, but 2 Thes. 2 only says what you wish it to say when apostasia is translated as KJV did it. It does not say what you think it says when we translate that one word another way. This is not inserting, it is exegeting. We just disagree on what the intent of the Author is here.

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departing occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

I wonder, if you had read it this way years ago, before you had ANY opinions, how you would have believed it? Or, I could say it this way, if the KJV had translated it this way, how many would have guessed on a falling away from truth - especially when the theme is the gathering? Here is a "Hebrew roots" translation I have never seen before:


2Thessalonians 2:1-10:

Concerning the coming of Adonu Yahshua HaMashiach and our being

gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily

unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to

have come from us, saying that the Day of YHWH has already come.

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come

until the [great departure] occurs proton [first in the sequence of

events] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to

destruction.

(Note, this is copied from a web site, not from a bible. Someone else could have added for emphasis.)


if Paul had stated the theme like this:


2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of the great falling away.... OR:

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the great falling away that will come first......


Then most would immediately think if they saw "there will come a departing first..." as a falling away from truth or sound doctrine.


However, Paul wrote it this way:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him...

...except there come the departing first...


I think these two fit together far better than the theme being the gathering and then go one with the passage and never get to the gathering.


We have beat this horse to death, and you still don't see it! ;-)


This post is already too long. I’ll deal with this AGAIN later. That poor old horse keeps resurrecting. Another Mystery.


You want to make an issue out of wording in Rev 19 and ignore it in 1 Corin 15.

I certainly make an issue out of rearranging Rev 19 to make it fit! WHAT am I ignoring in 1 Cor. 15?

That you can overlook no mention of a catching up in 1 Corin 15 and demand direct mention of a resurrection in Rev 19. You are harmonizing 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4 to get your desired result but don’t allow it in other cases that does not help your cause. ALL COMING OF THE LORD PASSAGES ARE THE SAME COMING !! Some details may vary just as in the example I just pointed which you accept those differences with no problem!!

it saddens me we can’t just let the bible say what it says. You know as well as I do in context the mystery in 1 Corin 15 is the mystery of the resurrection.

I should have included the transformation of those living at the time, my error but there is still no return trip to heaven here. Earlier in the chapter His coming is mentioned but you probably want to keep that separate since it talks about the end and putting down all authority and all that stuff that happens at the second coming. Still the same mystery. The passage 1 Corin 15:51-52, doesn’t even mention the return of the Lord. Yes I believe he returns here. Just as Rev 19 doesn’t mention a resurrection, this passage doesn’t mention a return. They can still be about the same event is my point. Remember I harmonize ,you divide.

No it is not! "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..." the MYSTERY is that some will not die but be CHANGED.

My point exactly.

And that, my friend happens at the rapture.

Yes it does, the one in Matt 24.

There is no trip to heaven in this passage or any other. It’s up to you to show one.

Prove that it is and you can even use 2 verses if you like.

The truth is, we need to take all verses on a subject, not just one or two!

I agree. You can use as many as you like and you still can’t get us higher than the clouds!

I don't think even you would disagree that 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4 are sister passages. Therefore, we take them TOGETHER, not separately. 1 Cor. 15 does not show any kind of timing, 1 Thes. does.

Now you are are harmonizing scripture , we are getting somewhere. Tell me how do you decide when to harmonize and when to divide?

Where is the timing?

There is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture and one resurrection of the righteous dead.

You make this statement as if 100% of the church believed it and as if you could prove it! Sorry, neither is true.

I make that statement because I believe that is what scripture says. I know you and Short Time don’t believe it.


Jesus only spoke of one The church was a MYSTERY at the time. There would not have been another coming unless Israel rejected Jesus and God turned to the Gentiles.

Then you need to explain Zech 14 and all of the OT passages that speak of the second coming. Remember God knows the end from the beginning, He did not get caught off guard. Maybe you want to retract that last statement.

But since they DID reject their own Messiah as a nation, God DID turn to the Gentiles, and the church age is pretty much of a parenthesis: rapture included.

When Jesus spoke the words of Matt 24 He knew everything that would or would not happen . Matt 24 was the truth then just as it is now . Jesus didn’t have to wait to see if something would or would not happen. What He spoke is how it is to be. “Immediately after the tribulation”. Jesus knew if there was to be a pretib rapture, he never taught one.

There is no mystery rapture of the church!!!!

Yet, when Paul wrote in 1 Cor. about some not dying but changing, he called it a mystery. There is NOTHING in the bible about living people being suddenly changed UNTIL PAUL WROTE IT.

Well someone has to be alive when he comes, unless you believe Short Timer.

Glorifying the living does not equate to a trip to heaven.

Just show me in scripture where it is described as you believe it will be . One verse will do.

You already KNOW that John wrote of the marriage before he wrote of Jesus on the white horse. You wish for that to be reversed. John is giving us an extremely brief outline in Rev. 19. When he tells us it is time for the marriage, he did not mean later! He meant RIGHT THEN in that verse.

So you believe it is at the end where Johns God given chronology places it? We are making progress here.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.


Rev 19: 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


Tell me did John mean right now in verse 15 Rev 14:14-16?

I can make my case without assuming, or adding to what scripture actually says, or interpreting the desired meaning into existence, or rearranging, can you?

No you can't! You are dreaming! You have to rearrange Rev. 19.

Nope

You have to assume 2 thes. 2 really means what you think it means.

Did you really just say this?

You have to assume the Matthew 24 gathering is the same a Paul's gathering.

Why wouldn’t it be, Jesus and Paul are on the same team?

You have to assume the Day of the Lord begins when Jesus comes.

Yep. 2 Thess 2:2 Christ is the Lord.

Indeed, you make many assumptions.

Nope.

BABerean2 said:

It sounds great. I just cannot find it in my Bible...

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Time to get a different Bible.

Postvieww said:

Part 1 Postvieww bold type

I did not make assumptions. I knew you knew when the Holy City would come down. What amazes me is that you can imagine John 14 being about that time way past the 1000 year reign and after the white throne judgment. Of course I understand it MUST BE SO to hold onto your posttrib belief! Jesus was just telling them about Him ascending back to heaven.


In your version there is a 2000 year wait before entering the mansions, in what scripture tells us there is a 3000 year wait, come on Lamad what’s another 1000 years.


Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Tell me Lamad, when does the above event take place and who is entering in?

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I don't think the first readers of John were thinking of a 2000 year wait! I doubt any were thinking it would be that long. Just a few weeks or months past John 14, after Jesus had risen from the dead, what was on their mind? WHEN would He begin His earthly kingdom!

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

No 2000 year wait on their mind. Neither do I think they know anything of God's 7000 year plan. When they heard Jesus say that He was going to make a home for them in heaven, they were probably wondering how soon they could get there.
Back then, it was always the man that went to prepare a place for His bride, and when it was finished, he went to get her. Did they stay where she was - or did he take her back to the place he had prepared? Did He not call the church His bride?

Matthew 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

If we read in Revelation, this marriage takes place in heaven before Jesus descends. Those that were not ready did not make it to the marriage.

Sorry, but I just cannot make John 14:3 say "i will come again and received you unto myself, and I will bring the places prepared down to you." I am convinced the first century readers would have though THEY would go to the city, not the city come to them.

As for Rev 21:27, ONLY those born again will be allowed to enter. This is, of course, after the new heaven and new earth.

All I can say to someone as convinced as you - if you wish to wait until then to enter in, be my guest. I will enter in a thousand years sooner.

Postvieww said:

Postview comments in BOLD. Lamad's NEW comments in dark red.

I think you MISSED the context:


John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev. 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


When Peter was killed he did go to be with Jesus. This passage in no way supports a pretrib rapture.
Typo, John 14:4, it happens to all of us.

My point was that IN CONTEXT it is people going to heaven, NOT heaven coming to people! NO ONE before John wrote Revelation would have ever entertained the notion that heaven would come to them.


The CONTEXT of Jesus going to prepare places is in fact HIS GOING. We both know WHERE He went. He went to His Father's house.


2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


So when Jesus said, "where I am" and "there ye may be also" IN CONTEXT would be heaven. He WENT, He did not come.

I think it is a HUGE stretch to make this about the heavenly city coming down.


When He said that, He was here, when He comes He will be here . All I am saying is the text does not say He is going back, you assume that. When He comes here we will be with Him, here , in the millennium here, and in the New Jerusalem here. That’s what it says. No stretch. In the mouth of two or three. If the way you read this is correct where is another supporting text?

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IN CONTEXT He is going.....of course to heaven. There IS NO CONTEXT of heaven coming to earth. YOU assume that.

Postvieww said:

Part 1 Postvieww bold type
In the pretrib scenario, we have a home prepared. We will be there for the 7 years.
You assume the 7 year stay, show the scripture.

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Or is it that YOU assume His coming is ONLY at the end? You know the 7 years is will presented in scripture as the 70th week. You assume you will be here for those 7 years. I don't, for I know God will not set any appointments for me for those 7 years. You wish to set your own appointment. I understand that.

When I read 1 Thes. 5, Paul puts the dead in Christ rising as JUST BEFORE the "sudden destruction" start of the Day of the Lord. I find that at the 6th seal. I think you do also, so you must more the 6th seal events to the end.

Postvieww said:

Part 1 Postvieww bold type
...
I am comforted with the thought of "ever being with the Lord." I am conforted and can comfort others knowing we will be caught up before the Day of the Lord. I am not sure what comfort it would be to know you would be staying here and being overcome by the Beast. Somehow that is just not a comfort.

The comfort is eternal life with Jesus no matter what we have to endure on the way there? Do you believe you were promised a physical escape better than the one Peter or Paul had. You might want to rethink that one.

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"So shall we ever be with the Lord." Paul was talking about those alive and In Christ not having to die, and finally meeting those who have died and are raised. I can't forget what Paul wrote at the first of this letter:

1 Thes. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

In context, when "so shall we ever be with the Lord," takes place, we are delivered from His wrath. Sorry, have to go. Out of time.

Added later:

5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Twice in this letter Paul has said that we will not be here for His wrath. This is the same letter where the rapture is written. In the rapture passage, chapters 4 & 5, without changing subjects, Paul tells us God will set no appointments for us with His wrath. I don't know about you, but if I don't have an appointment with a doctor, I DON'T SHOW UP!

By the way, the rapture is a ONE TIME event, and it was not meant to be in Peter or Paul's day.

Postvieww said:

The CONTEXT of Jesus going to prepare places is in fact HIS GOING. We both know WHERE He went. He went to His Father's house.

When He said that, He was here, when He comes He will be here . All I am saying is the text does not say He is going back, you assume that. When He comes here we will be with Him, here , in the millennium here, and in the New Jerusalem here. That’s what it says. No stretch. In the mouth of two or three. If the way you read this is correct where is another supporting text?

See you had to change “receive” to “take”. Again, when He comes He will be here and we will be here with Him. The problem for your theory here is, He comes “Immediately after the tribulation” Matt 24:29. “30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:” Matt 24:30. “31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” Matt 24:31. This is when he comes John 14, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2 and Rev 11 Rev 14 and yes Rev 19.

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Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.



1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; (no angels) that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (Voice) of God: (Jesus) and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul revealed a coming of Jesus not known in the OT or by Israel, one that is over in the twinkling of an eye,

where the "Righteous" both dead/living are removed from the earth, and the unRighteous are "left behind" for the trib,

Where as the second coming is the opposite of the rapture, the UnRighteous are removed from the earth, the Rightous left behind for the MK.

If this all occurred at one coming, with Jesus taking the righteous and angels taking the unrighteous, there wouldn't be anyone left on the planet.

This is "elementary stuff" if you know the scriptures.

Why has no one give answers to my 4193 post????

Job8 said:

Time to get a different Bible[/COLOR][/B].

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So, if we cannot find a manmade doctrine in our Bibles...

We are to try and find a Bible that supports our manmade doctrine...

That seems to have been the purpose of the Scofield Reference Bible.

It's notes contain the 2 Peoples/ 2 Purposes/ 2 Kingdoms/ 2 or more Gospels/ Scripture "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/ 2 Last Trumpets/ 2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 or more Resurrections of the Dead/ Daniel 9 "Gap"/ Replacing the One Seed of Galatians 3:16 with the many seeds/ Covenant Confusion/ Ignoring the Book of Hebrews/ doctrine, that is not found in the text of the very same Bible.

.

You, or any other want to explain

1. who this is that refuse the invitation to the wedding THOSE WHO REJECT THE GOSPEL AND CHRIST

2. and who it is that does attend, THOSE WHO RESPOND TO THE GOSPEL AND RECEIVE CHRIST

3. and where this wedding takes place, IN HEAVEN

4. and at what time period in scripture JUST BEFORE THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST

5. who is the man without a wedding garment THE ONE WITHOUT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST

6. how he got up there where the "KING" lives??????? THIS IS A PARABLE SO HE DID NOT REALLY "GET UP THERE".

BABerean2 said:

So, if we cannot find a manmade doctrine in our Bibles... We are to try and find a Bible that supports our manmade doctrine... That seems to have been the purpose of the Scofield Reference Bible.

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As far as I can tell -- along with many, many Christians -- the Scofield Reference Bible is a very reliable study Bible in general and does not present "man-made doctrines". The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is right there is Scripture.

Postvieww said:

Part 1 Postvieww bold type

...
Now let’s look at John 14:3. You claim the context is HIM going to heaven. You insert that because of your “preconceived glasses”. The first part of the verse says He is going to heaven

Thank you! Verses in chapter 13 are about Him going to heaven, and 14:4 is about Him going.

He already did that. It is also about Him coming back and doesn’t say He will go back again.

So the verses we are discussing are enclosed by verses about Him going. No preconceptions here! It is in black and white.

1: going to heaven

Yes He went

2. Going to make houses for you

Yes He is.

3. I will come and take you to myself.

He will come again approximately 2000 years later and receive us to himself.

John 14:3b “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

See you had to change “receive” to “take”. Again, when He comes He will be here and we will be here with Him. The problem for your theory here is, He comes “Immediately after the tribulation” Matt 24:29. “30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:” Matt 24:30. “31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” Matt 24:31. This is when he comes John 14, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2 and Rev 11 Rev 14 and yes Rev 19.
....

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When Jesus spoke this, of course He had not died yet. IN CONTEXT this is before Jesus died. He was telling them that He would soon die and leave them. The correct intent of the author must be in the context it was spoken. Verses in chapter 13 are about Him going to heaven, and 14:4 is about Him going to heaven. So the context is about His GOING and staying in heaven. I assure you, their mind was on HEAVEN. He just told them He was going to prepare homes for them at the place He was going to. So when He said He was coming to get them, their mind would have still been on heaven.

Going to heaven ...........(chapter 13)
Going to build mansions (chapter 14)
Coming to get you........ (chapter 14)
Going to heaven............(chapter 14)

You tell us: how are they going to think that instead of going to heaven - heaven is going to come to them? What you suggest is very far fetched.

I did not "change" anything. I just copied and pasted. I did not choose this translation for any reason.

English Standard Version
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Again, when He comes He will be here and we will be here with Him.

We know for sure that this is true for the short time He is in the air. We will certainly be with Him in the air. The question then is where does He go from there. I am convinced that John 14 tells us the answer. He will take us to the places He prepared.

The problem for your theory here is, He comes “Immediately after the tribulation”
No problem! That is a different coming proved by 1 Thes. 4 & 5. Of course He comes after; but He also comes before. The gathering in Matthew 24 is not Paul's gathering. Paul's gathering is from EARTH ONLY. So from "the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." cannot be Paul's gathering.

Sorry, it simply will not fit all the scriptures to force TWO comings into one. Your theory simply will NOT ALLOW God to gather the Jews and take them back to Israel as He promised them. I guess He is not allowed to have any other "gathering" but what some will make it out to be the rapture.

In 1 Thes. 4 & 5, the rapture comes at the same time as the start of the day. The earthquake is the start of the DAY. Will those in the rapture suffer the earthquake? Not according to Paul. THEY get the sudden destruction, while WE get raptured - just as the earth begins to shake. THEY get the start of the DAY of the Lord, WE get salvation and get to "live together with Him." THEY get caught in the start of God's WRATH. WE will have NO APPOINTMENT with His wrath. The ONLY place this fits in John's narrative is at the 6th seal. Sorry, but HIS WRATH begins before the 70th week and continues on through the week. A posttrib rapture simply will not fit scriptures. You can set your OWN appointment: I won't - and God won't set one for me.

The Rapture Refuted
Acts 14:22 We are warned, that to enter the Kingdom of God, we must undergo many hardships.
Jeremiah 9:7 I shall refine My people; how else should I deal with them?
Romans 8:17 If we are His heirs, then we must share His suffering, if we are also to share in His glory.

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take them [My people] out of this world, but that You keep them from the evil one.
Revelation 3:10 ...keep you from the hour of trial.
John 17:15....keep them from the evil one.
Jeremiah 30:7 ...Jacobs trouble – but he shall be saved out of it.

All the four highlighted above are translated from the same Greek words –tereo ek. Tereo ek means ; to be kept from falling - not giving way under pressure and temptation, not physical rescue or protection. The prayer of Jesus in John 17:15, failed if He meant for His disciples to be physically protected, as they were all martyred. [except John]

Luke 21:34-36 Be prepared, do not let worldly cares catch you unawares, when the Great Day comes, for that day will come to everyone the world over. Be alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming, so you will be able to stand in the Lord’s presence. [Note that some Bibles say ‘escape all these things’, but the correct translation is ‘to pass safely through’.]

1 Peter 4:12-19 Dear friends, do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal which has come to test you, for the time has come for the judgement to begin and it begins with God’s own household. So if you suffer according to His will, you must continue to trust Him, while still doing good and your Maker will not fail you. [This passage applies to all the Church saints who have been and are, persecuted for His sake. But it more specifically applies to us, as we await the multi prophesied fire judgement that will test the faith of everyone.] 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8

1 Corinthians 10:13 So far you have faced no trial beyond human endurance, God keeps faith and will not let you be tested beyond your powers, but when the test comes, He will provide a way out and enable you to endure it. [We will all be tested, there is no ‘rapture’ out of it, but those who trust Him and call on his Name, will be helped through this difficult time. Joel 2:32]

1 Corinthians 1:7-9 There is indeed no single gift that you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to reveal Himself. He will keep you firm until the end, without reproach until the Day of His Return. God Himself has called you to share in the life of His Son, and God keeps faith.
Jeremiah 25:29 I shall first punish Jerusalem, [Judah] so do you think you can be exempt? No, you will not escape judgement, for I am bringing punishment upon all the inhabitants of the earth. This is the Word of the Lord.
Revelation 13:10b ....this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God’s people. Ref: REB