SOLA SCRIPTURA is not biblical...

Hank77

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And since Sola Scriptura assumes that you have access YOURSELF to the Scripture,
No it doesn't. I might not have my own Bible but the teacher I listen to does and teaches exclusively from those scriptures.
4.2. To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink,.........
but as regards doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed; and they do please God, ordering their conversation in all righteousness, chastity, and wisdom.

Rom 2:14 For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law;
Rom 2:15 who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,
Rom 2:16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.

Irenaeus is agreeing with what scripture says.
The People of God are the Church, and the people of God are united in doctrine. There is ONE BODY with ONE FAITH.
I agree, One Body and One Faith, that is faith in the One Gospel as taught by the Apostles. I think this scripture speaks to the authority of the writings of the Apostles being the final authority for the Gospel that saves.
Gal 1:8 but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you--anathema let him be!
Gal 1:9 as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive--anathema let him be!
 
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sculleywr

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God being the final authority has given His written Word to men as their final authority. Hence Matthew 4:4. There is no contradiction, since this is how God communicates with men. No need to create a straw man argument.
Scripture doesn't contain every word God ever said, because it doesn't contain every word Christ said. Christ is God, therefore every word God said is not contained in Scripture. And yes, we know it doesn't contain every word Christ said because many times the gospels simply say that Christ taught the people. It doesn't say what He taught every time He preached or taught.
 
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FireHeart

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I mean the Church. The WHOLE of the Church. However, the Church is not defined as some mystical undefinable concept. The Church is defined in Ephesians. One is part of the Church if one can be of the same Body, Faith, and Life with the Church. That means the Church is defined as doctrinally united on a common dogma that ALL accept as the Truth. One Faith. We believe in Christ acting the same in salvation, meaning that a person who does not accept the soteriology of the Church is not part of the Church here on earth. Because salvation is the action of Christ, disagreement on it among members of the Church as defined by the Apostles means that one is true and the other is a schismatic or a heretic (depending entirely on whether he first accepted the truth and then turned from it).

This is why Communion and the other Sacraments are closed from non-Orthodox in the Orthodox Church. We do not hold to the illusion that we believe in the same God as other denominations. That would be downright delusional. Our God saves one way, while Protestants have a belief in God where He saves in another. Our God is ontologically DIFFERENT from Protestant views of theology.

It is not that we say that Protestants don't WANT to follow God. Desire to follow God does not always equal the actual following of God. Protestants believe different, and therefore will have different results, which depend ENTIRELY on how God decides to deal with those not in the Orthodox Church.

In the end, we are a Christian because we are part of Christ's Body: the Church. We define the Body as being of one Doctrine. Doctrine is the DNA of a spiritual cell. If your DNA is not the same, then you are not the same Body as I, and the Church has no choice but to behave as though one is foreign, until or unless your DNA changes. The Church does not Change. That is why the Church is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth. Protestants have changed so many times that they have to accept the Relativist concept that all Christian denominations are equal. But that is Relativism, and the Orthodox Church will never accept that. IT is not a judgment on salvation. It is an observation of reality.

Let me ask you this- you as a follower of God you as a believer how far are you willing to go for the sake of just one lost soul no matter how evil how cruel dark their hearts are no matter how blood stained their souls are how far are you willing to go out of love and for their sake? Regardless of what you think the church is or what the dna of of the spiritual cell is regardless of what doctrine or belief you think is true if you do not have the love and fire of God within you then all of this all of the doctrines all the church debates is meaningless.

When I became a Christian the very first thing I promised God is that I would give him my all and soon after as I read revelations I read of the fiery eyes he had and I was overwhelmed by them and I instantly knew the reason why they burned so strongly and so intensely, they burned out of such a passion and love for all of his children the power that I felt impacted my heart and it was then that I learned what it really means to be a follower of God. I have had such a terrible and harsh life and in my faith I fell over and over and over again in fact many would say seeing how I fell the things I did I was in no way saved. But the fire I saw in those eyes burned inside me and i refused to give in no matter how much I fell and no matter how the enemy tried to convince me I was not saved and that I wasn't strong enough.

The reason I am a Christian is not for my own salvation but for God's sake and all others sake, there is no limits I am not willing to go out of love for their sake even if I have to burn in the very fires of hell itself for sake of such a person whose heart is so dark and cruel. I am one who asks myself everyday why do I keep fighting even when I have fallen so much when I am so lacking why am I even a Christian? the answer is the same as those eyes that I saw in revelation and it is this fire that is my reason and motivation to be a believer and to be strong in faith it is this fire that is the reason why I am unafraid to go so far as to even burn in hell for a time for the sake of another.

This fire is why Jesus did what he did it is the very core of fathers heart and this fire is the mark of a true believer, I chose the username Fireheart for a reason so when you look at my avatar can you see the reason that fire burns? Regardless if you are catholic or Christian regardless if you want to water down the bible this fire is what marks one as a follower of God and there is no limits one with such a fire is willing to go out of love and this fire was first known to me from the power i felt reading the bible. so ask yourself this- do you bear this very fire I speak of?
 
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sculleywr

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No it doesn't. I might not have my own Bible but the teacher I listen to does and teaches exclusively from those scriptures.

And the elders and bishops of the early Church didn't always have access to the written documents. The lack of access to documents is well documented by their writings, and is also evidenced by the fact that in order to become a Bishop, a man had to memorize the entire book of Psalms, since the Psalms were used in their services as the largest scriptural element of their services (the Psalter portion is still the largest portion of many Orthodox services today), and was present in every single service they had.

But they did not teach EXCLUSIVELY from Scripture. For 13-20 years, there were NO New Testament documents at all, and yet they still taught the gospel, teaching things that were contraventions of the Scripture that existed (for example, direct changes to the "eye for an eye" law made by Christ). Even then, the Scriptures are testament to the use of tradition by the Apostles, as Jude and Paul many times refer to extra-scriptural events as being completely true, such as the battle over the body of Moses. That was pure Jewish tradition. It had no place in Scripture.


Rom 2:14 For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law;
Rom 2:15 who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,
Rom 2:16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.

Irenaeus is agreeing with what scripture says.

I agree, One Body and One Faith, that is faith in the One Gospel as taught by the Apostles. I think this scripture speaks to the authority of the writings of the Apostles being the final authority for the Gospel that saves.
Gal 1:8 but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you--anathema let him be!
Gal 1:9 as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive--anathema let him be!
He isn't contradicting Scripture, but he is contradicting Sola Scriptura. He says very plainly that they were TAUGHT these things APART from written documents, and were teaching these things APART from written documents. In other words, he had ordained elders who would have no written language and made them teachers of the Church. Their entire training was bereft of written Scripture. The parishioners under them were separated from Scripture by two or even three people.

And besides, without DIRECT ACCESS to Scripture, a person CANNOT follow Sola Scriptura. He is following the teachings of a person who has access to Scripture, or, in the case of many in the early Church, a person who was taught by a person who had access to Scriptures, but doesn't himself have access to Scripture.

It was the scarcity of access to Scripture that caused the great processions that Orthodox do for the Scripture, leading it in a great procession. They did that because when the letters of the Apostles, the gospels, or the Law and Prophets were there, they were treated with great respect and honor, and were processed around as a king would have been, with psalms and songs being sung as a parade accompanied the Scriptures into the gathering place. Certainly, if access to Scripture were so common that every elder had access to the Scripture, then such a lavish procession would be unnecessary.
 
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sculleywr

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Let me ask you this- you as a follower of God you as a believer how far are you willing to go for the sake of just one lost soul no matter how evil how cruel dark their hearts are no matter how blood stained their souls are how far are you willing to go out of love and for their sake? Regardless of what you think the church is or what the dna of of the spiritual cell is regardless of what doctrine or belief you think is true if you do not have the love and fire of God within you then all of this all of the doctrines all the church debates is meaningless.

When I became a Christian the very first thing I promised God is that I would give him my all and soon after as I read revelations I read of the fiery eyes he had and I was overwhelmed by them and I instantly knew the reason why they burned so strongly and so intensely, they burned out of such a passion and love for all of his children the power that I felt impacted my heart and it was then that I learned what it really means to be a follower of God. I have had such a terrible and harsh life and in my faith I fell over and over and over again in fact many would say seeing how I fell the things I did I was in no way saved. But the fire I saw in those eyes burned inside me and i refused to give in no matter how much I fell and no matter how the enemy tried to convince me I was not saved and that I wasn't strong enough.

The reason I am a Christian is not for my own salvation but for God's sake and all others sake, there is no limits I am not willing to go out of love for their sake even if I have to burn in the very fires of hell itself for sake of such a person whose heart is so dark and cruel. I am one who asks myself everyday why do I keep fighting even when I have fallen so much when I am so lacking why am I even a Christian? the answer is the same as those eyes that I saw in revelation and it is this fire that is my reason and motivation to be a believer and to be strong in faith it is this fire that is the reason why I am unafraid to go so far as to even burn in hell for a time for the sake of another.

This fire is why Jesus did what he did it is the very core of fathers heart and this fire is the mark of a true believer, I chose the username Fireheart for a reason so when you look at my avatar can you see the reason that fire burns? Regardless if you are catholic or Christian regardless if you want to water down the bible this fire is what marks one as a follower of God and there is no limits one with such a fire is willing to go out of love and this fire was first known to me from the power i felt reading the bible. so ask yourself this- do you bear this very fire I speak of?
Much of this is off-topic, but I would love to continue our discussion, so I'm going to PM my response. Hope you understand.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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You can't even show that the highest praise of non-divine authorities goes to the Scripture. The Apostles, the Church itself, and even the elders of the Church get higher praises in Scripture than the Scripture gives itself. The Church is described as the Pillar and Ground of the Truth, which is a very definitively higher statement of authority than"Profitable" or even "pure".

However, Sola Scriptura, as practiced by the majority of Protestants, was completely impossible in the early Church, where they couldn't just pick up their bibles.

The point he is attempting to make is that NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, you put one tradition or another above Scripture. The method of interpreting Scripture is a tradition you place in authority over Scripture. Your systematic theologies are just a fancy name for a tradition you place OVER Scripture. The reason is that when Scripture contradicts whichever theology you have, you create a rationalization around it to try to explain it away.

You have some very harsh words for the Scripture. I don't believe you are in the right here, you seem to have a love for tradition which is strong enough to obstruct the major truths of the Scripture itself. Look at just a few passages:

John 17:17:
17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Romans 10:17:
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Ephesians 2:7-9:
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

III John 1:12:
Demetrius is well spoken of by everyone—and even by the truth itself. We also speak well of him, and you know that our testimony is true.

II Peter 3:16:
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Luke 16:16:
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

As has already been mentioned Revelation says not to add or subtract from His word and Proverbs says not to add. Jesus denounced the Pharisees for the many traditions they put on the backs of His people saying they hindered them from entering heaven...they themselves were not entering Jesus said and they hindered others. He also pointed out that in some cases they set aside God's Word in favor of their traditions.

The letters written by imposters...which Paul himself warns of time and again...were identified. The letters cannonized were those most widely used and practiced.

If you have no Sola Scriptura, you are lost...where are your spiritual eyes??? Anything goes. Furthermore
II Thessalonians 2:1-12 speaks of the lawless one who will set himself up in God's holy temple proclaiming himself to be God...you must have God's Word as your greatest law impressed upon your heart...this picture is clearly painted for us. The Holy Spirit guides us through God's Word and gives us insight and wisdom into that Word and teaches us how to conduct ourselves and even more importantly to distinguish the spirits.

I could go on, but will end here.
 
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Hank77

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The early Church took the command to "confess your sins one to another" quite literally, with people literally coming up before the gathering to confess their sins. Then, due to the occurrence of gossip and even lawsuits being based on these confessions (it was such an issue that Paul even responded to that problem in his letters), after several councils, the practice was consolidated to confessing before a representative of the Church who was bound to not publicize the confessions.
Where does Paul address this problem in his letters? Please state the scripture, I'm drawing a blank. Thanks.
The fact is that Scripture wasn't the FINAL authority in the Council of Jerusalem. Nowhere did I say it was nonexistent in the Council.
The point is that James did not just declare it, he relied on the scriptures to prove the truth of his decision. He also said that the Holy Spirit's agreement was present.
Do you think James would have come to the same conclusion without having a scripture that supported his decision?
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Scripture doesn't contain every word God ever said, because it doesn't contain every word Christ said. Christ is God, therefore every word God said is not contained in Scripture. And yes, we know it doesn't contain every word Christ said because many times the gospels simply say that Christ taught the people. It doesn't say what He taught every time He preached or taught.

And then since Jesus/God knows infinitely more than what is written we are to suppose we may continue to add to His word and it would be accurate? Why? You have stated that everything must be examined through the lense of the O.T. God says in the O.T. that His Words were not to be added to nor subtracted. The God you are talking about in your posts does not sound like the God I learned about in the Scriptures. I already posted a few passages, but there are a couple more which indicate we are not to add or subtract:

I Corinthians 4:6:
I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

II John 1:9:
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
 
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sculleywr

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You have some very harsh words for the Scripture. I don't believe you are in the right here, you seem to have a love for tradition which is strong enough to obstruct the major truths of the Scripture itself. Look at just a few passages:

John 17:17:
17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Romans 10:17:
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Ephesians 2:7-9:
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

III John 1:12:
Demetrius is well spoken of by everyone—and even by the truth itself. We also speak well of him, and you know that our testimony is true.

II Peter 3:16:
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Luke 16:16:
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

As has already been mentioned Revelation says not to add or subtract from His word and Proverbs says not to add. Jesus denounced the Pharisees for the many traditions they put on the backs of His people saying they hindered them from entering heaven...they themselves were not entering Jesus said and they hindered others. He also pointed out that in some cases they set aside God's Word in favor of their traditions.

The letters written by imposters...which Paul himself warns of time and again...were identified. The letters cannonized were those most widely used and practiced.

If you have no Sola Scriptura, you are lost...where are your spiritual eyes??? Anything goes. Furthermore
II Thessalonians 2:1-12 speaks of the lawless one who will set himself up in God's holy temple proclaiming himself to be God...you must have God's Word as your greatest law impressed upon your heart...this picture is clearly painted for us. The Holy Spirit guides us through God's Word and gives us insight and wisdom into that Word and teaches us how to conduct ourselves and even more importantly to distinguish the spirits.

I could go on, but will end here.
The thing is, NONE of these place the Scripture at the highest or exclusive position of earthly authority.
To say that it is not the sole or highest authority on earth is not harsh. It is a statement. Sola Scriptura is a fifteenth century invention. It is not a teaching of the Apostles. It is a tradition by which modern Protestants reject the direct commands of Scripture to follow Tradition and by which Protestants reject the Scripture's praise for the Church as the Pillar and Ground of the truth. The Apostles didn't have Sola Scriptura. fourteen centuries of Christians NEVER had Sola Scriptura. Are you saying that all of those are lost?

Sola Scriptura is unbiblical. It rejects its own requirement. If Scripture is the sole or highest authority and is clear in its teaching, then there is a CLEAR, DIRECT claim of that authority. No such claim exists.

Scripture is quite venerable, but it isn't inerrant, and it isn't the highest.
 
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sculleywr

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Where does Paul address this problem in his letters? Please state the scripture, I'm drawing a blank. Thanks.

When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous rinstead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that sthe saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, twhy do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 uI say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. vWhy not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even wyour own brothers!1

This is First Corinthians 6. It doesn't say where the people were getting the information for these lawsuits. Rather, it is condemning the fact that many Christians were suing eachother.

The point is that James did not just declare it, he relied on the scriptures to prove the truth of his decision. He also said that the Holy Spirit's agreement was present.
Do you think James would have come to the same conclusion without having a scripture that supported his decision?
The problem is that no clear reading of the Scripture quoted in the Council says "there will be a day you no longer need to follow the Mosaic Law". In point of fact, there were many other arguments upon which they relied. Those arguments were, for the most part, best written down by Paul in Galatians, however, at that time, the letters of Paul were future books. They did not exist and therefore could not be called Scripture. The book of Galatians was written as additional encouragement for the people there, who were under special pressure by the local Jewish population. Because the Scripture was not the ONLY OR HIGHEST authority, nor was it used according to the application of Sola Scriptura (that is, the plain sense of Scripture), I would say that even if they had no written documents to reference, they would have come to the same conclusion.
 
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sculleywr

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And then since Jesus/God knows infinitely more than what is written we are to suppose we may continue to add to His word and it would be accurate? Why? You have stated that everything must be examined through the lense of the O.T. God says in the O.T. that His Words were not to be added to nor subtracted. The God you are talking about in your posts does not sound like the God I learned about in the Scriptures. I already posted a few passages, but there are a couple more which indicate we are not to add or subtract:

I Corinthians 4:6:
I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

II John 1:9:
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Tradition doesn't ADD to Scripture. Scripture was never alone. IT wasn't Orthodox adding Tradition to Scripture, it was Protestants SUBTRACTING Scripture out of the Tradition to which Scripture ALWAYS BELONGED. You didn't take a different shirt. You took the sleeve and try to sell it as though it were the whole shirt. But try as you might, without massive modification and the addition of Systematic Theologies and modern trappings, you will never have enough material to make an entire shirt.
 
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Hank77

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This is First Corinthians 6. It doesn't say where the people were getting the information for these lawsuits. Rather, it is condemning the fact that many Christians were suing eachother.
Ah, this scripture I know but it doesn't say anything about people gossiping about what others have confessed in order that the assembly could pray for them, or that the lawsuits Paul is talking about had anything to do with slander.
The problem is that no clear reading of the Scripture quoted in the Council says "there will be a day you no longer need to follow the Mosaic Law".
The laws that James declared that the Gentiles should follow are the same laws that God gave to the Gentile Noah. They are the same laws that were required of the proselytes of the gate, Gentiles who had not converted to Judaism.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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The thing is, NONE of these place the Scripture at the highest or exclusive position of earthly authority.
To say that it is not the sole or highest authority on earth is not harsh. It is a statement. Sola Scriptura is a fifteenth century invention. It is not a teaching of the Apostles. It is a tradition by which modern Protestants reject the direct commands of Scripture to follow Tradition and by which Protestants reject the Scripture's praise for the Church as the Pillar and Ground of the truth. The Apostles didn't have Sola Scriptura. fourteen centuries of Christians NEVER had Sola Scriptura. Are you saying that all of those are lost?
Sola Scriptura is unbiblical. It rejects its own requirement. If Scripture is the sole or highest authority and is clear in its teaching, then there is a CLEAR, DIRECT claim of that authority. No such claim exists.
Scripture is quite venerable, but it isn't inerrant, and it isn't the highest.

I disagree. You state that the Apostles didn't have Sola Scriptura. They are the eye witnesses whom Christ Himself taught and appointed to teach all nations. Jesus says this:
John 17:20-23:
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
and their message we now have in written form so we too may be saved:
John 21:24-25:
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Their messages are inspired:
II Peter 1:20-21:
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Paul makes reference to what the Spirit says to him at times to reinforce this doctrine.

How God judges those who truly had no full Scripture is not for us to know. We however do have the Scriptures and how sinful and unappreciative of us to judge it as human renderings and neglect it as such (especially in light of the fact that Scripture for years was kept out of reach to common man.
 
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sculleywr

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Ah, this scripture I know but it doesn't say anything about people gossiping about what others have confessed in order that the assembly could pray for them, or that the lawsuits Paul is talking about had anything to do with slander.

I never said they did. I said that the problem was probably resultant of the same reason that they consolidated public confession to a private confession. We know of the issue precisely because of other writers from the Apostolic and Post-Apostolic eras. Also, since slander requires that the offender is the revealer, we're using the wrong word. The lawsuits were wrong, and that was the main issue. Since the admonition of Paul (as well as other Christians writing at the time) was obviously not getting the message across, the leaders of the early Church saw fit to consolidate the Confession to an elder of the Church. Later, the Church consolidated it to only SPECIFIC elders who had received special training to counsel those who came for Confession, as the purpose of Confession is not divine forgiveness, which the Presbyter CANNOT give (he stands witness, not as arbiter), but to provide healing, which the presbyter not only can, but should, give, as he is charged with the spiritual health of his flock.

The laws that James declared that the Gentiles should follow are the same laws that God gave to the Gentile Noah. They are the same laws that were required of the proselytes of the gate, Gentiles who had not converted to Judaism.
While that may be true, the passages quoted had no direct, obvious, clear meaning related to that. Taken alone, that passage is very ambiguous, and without the context of the Church, it could be taken to mean many things (and I have heard three sermons in the past on that very passage going in VERY different directions. I went to a church once that had a seeming obsession with the book he quoted from).

Remember, however, that I am not stating that Scripture is not important in the Council of Jerusalem. I am saying it isn't the primary authority. The reason for this is that Scripture is a TEXT. It NECESSITATES interpretation. There were TWO interpretations of the Scripture present at the Council. The first was that people should have to follow the Mosaic laws given IN SCRIPTURE in order to be part of the Church. The second was that they did not. As far as LOGIC dictates, both have extremely logical foundations in the Scriptures that were available to the Council (which, being in Jerusalem, was likely to be one of the few places that had the whole Old Testament available). In the end, it was the Church determining between two logical interpretations of Scripture. Sola Scriptura denies that the Church has such authority, because, to reference Martin Luther, to go against conscience would be wrong.

To the Judaizers, it went against Conscience to allow people into the Church without the following of the Mosaic Laws as a requirement. To the Arians or Gnostics, it went against Conscience to preach that Jesus was both God and man, for how could He be both? In the Councils concerning Arianism, the most humanly logical teaching was the one which was rejected and declared heresy!

The Council of Jerusalem gave us the formula for dealing with doctrinal issues in the Church. It is a shame that the Western world has abandoned that formula.
 
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sculleywr

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I disagree. You state that the Apostles didn't have Sola Scriptura. They are the eye witnesses whom Christ Himself taught and appointed to teach all nations. Jesus says this:
John 17:20-23:
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
and their message we now have in written form so we too may be saved:
John 21:24-25:
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Their messages are inspired:
II Peter 1:20-21:
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Paul makes reference to what the Spirit says to him at times to reinforce this doctrine.

How God judges those who truly had no full Scripture is not for us to know. We however do have the Scriptures and how sinful and unappreciative of us to judge it as human renderings and neglect it as such (especially in light of the fact that Scripture for years was kept out of reach to common man.
Eye witness does not mean Sola Scriptura. And the statement was that it was unpracticeable in the majority of the Church. If you don't have the ability to read Scripture, whether because of language barrier, reading ability, or the sheer lack of access, you cannot practice Sola Scriptura, either as defined by the Classical Reformers, or as defined by the modern Protestants.

The Apostles also did not PRACTICE Sola Scriptura. They taught using the ORAL method for 13 years. If writing Scripture was SO important, God would have had it begun with Christ, or at the very least as soon as the Church began its ministry. Instead, the book of Acts shows them teaching people, then sending those people out to teach others, and those teachers were sending other teachers. By the time the Apostles were writing, the elders appointed in the Church could have been 4 times separated from the Apostles! How in the name of Sam Hill were they preaching Sola Scriptura from a Scripture that wasn't even written? Don't tell me that the Apostles were magically everywhere in the Church. There were only 12 of them and thousands of gatherings spread throughout the empire, and several of the Apostles apparently remained in Jerusalem their whole ministry. It becomes a simple math problem. 12 people could not effectively teach by the method of SS, because it would have been physically impossible without God cloning them out to random places.

This is why it is important to realize that they had a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CULTURE THAN THE WESTERN PROTESTANTS. Where Westerners prize rationalism and writing, the Hebrew culture was more focused on living and oral Tradition. Sola Scriptura is a logical result of trying to use Aristotelean logic to compartmentalize authority in the Church. The Hebrews and early Christians practiced no such compartmentalization. If that was the teaching of the Apostles, that Scripture is the highest authority, then I posit that the Apostles were an abysmal failure. None of their followers understood that. Sola Scriptura died before the gates even opened, only to be revived over a dozen centuries later.

If Sola Scriptura is the truth, why did God let it fail so miserably? The only answer is the same as the Jews gave: If it had been of God, then NOTHING would have stopped it from proliferating from the beginning.

Since Sola Scriptura obviously did NOT proliferate from the beginning, it is evident therefore that it is not of God, but of man. And since Sola Scriptura now has over a dozen interpretations of its own meaning (possibly exaggerating), and is the basis upon which literally THOUSANDS of divisions are built, the practical evidence points to it being the tradition of men.

You can usher thousands of proof texts. Anyone can do that. But to prove it is true means you have to show that it lived on without failure. That is the requirement of Scripture. A single point of failure is all that is needed to show a doctrine to be of man, and while Tradition has literally ALWAYS been a part of Judeo-Christian life, Sola Scriptura hasn't.
 
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Albion

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Ok. Use The Scripture alone to say what is Scripture.
Yes, yes, we all can do that. Scripture many times says it's of highest worth, pure gold, the word of God, inspired by God, etc. So if that doesn't establish its credentials such that a skeptic will not say "But it doesn't ever use the words Sola Scriptura and in exactly that form, so...." then simple logic should.

What can be more authoritative than the word of GOD, my friend?

And this we can say even before we turn to what is supposed by you to be equal to the word of God--man's customs and opinions.
 
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Albion

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Ok. Use The Scripture alone to say what is Scripture. Yes, saying that the Scripture is the final authority is an extra scriptural Tradition.
No, it isn't. The Early Church Fathers that you trust said that it was Scripture that underlay their teachings and never (to my knowledge) cited "Sacred Tradition" or "Holy Tradition" instead. The Nicene Creed itself cites it ("according to the Scriptures"). All the sources that you claim to put your stock in affirm Scripture...but not something in its stead!

You give examples where Scripture is quoted or used, but not where it is given authority.
I've done just that on a number of occasions, BUT don't forget that we started this off with you taking the position that such evidence doesn't matter to you, so you can't use that tactic now.

You insisted that the Scriptures must say exactly the wording in exactly the form that you demanded...or else you were determined not to believe. You long ago insulated yourself against the Bible's testimony in this regard by demanding, in addition, that it also explicitly state that there is nothing else that is the equal of the word of God.
 
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sculleywr

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Yes, yes, we all can do that. Scripture many times says it's of highest worth, pure gold, the word of God, inspired by God, etc. So if that doesn't establish its credentials such that a skeptic will not say "But it doesn't ever use the words Sola Scriptura and in exactly that form, so...." then simple logic should.

What can be more authoritative than the word of GOD, my friend?

And this we can say even before we turn to what is supposed by you to be equal to the word of God--man's customs and opinions.
Highest value
pure
True
Inspired

None of these mean that it is the highest AUTHORITY. The authority of a being exists SEPARATE from the value it holds. A diamond could be 100% pure carbon and yet it wouldn't be an authority on gemstones, because carbon isn't the only gem-forming element. There's literally dozens of gem-forming elements and molecules.

I'm not asking for you to show the value or truth of Scripture. THOSE AREN'T BEING CHALLENGED.

I said show where it says the Scripture is the HIGHEST OR ONLY AUTHORITY ON THE TRUTH.

And that you can NEVER do.

And besides that, the praises of Scripture are NEVER exclusive. Scripture doesn't say that the Scripture is the only Truth, though it says it is true. Scripture doesn't say that Scripture is the only pure thing, though Scripture is pure. These are non-exclusive statements.

I am looking for a statement that fits this:

Find me Scripture that supports that the Scripture is EXCLUSIVELY the HIGHEST authority in the Church.

None of you have succeeded in that mission.

You didn't even succeed in answering the very first thing I said. You can't use Scripture alone to prove what the content of Scripture is. You can't use Sola Scriptura methodology to prove what should be in the Table of Contents.
 
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Albion

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Highest value
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True
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None of these mean that it is the highest AUTHORITY.
Of course they do. :doh:

You didn't even succeed in answering the very first thing I said. You can't use Scripture alone to prove what the content of Scripture is. You can't use Sola Scriptura methodology to prove what should be in the Table of Contents.
Again, you don't seem to understand what Sola Scripture is or means. So, why don't we approach this from a different angle, then?

You believe that the Bible IS divine revelation--because your church does. So, given that as a truism, what argument can be made for Man's customs and legends being its equal?

There is nothing in Scripture that says "Follow Holy Tradition when deciding doctrine." Or should I demand that you find the exact wording somewhere in Scripture that says "That which Men call 'Sacred Tradition' is as authoritative as God's word?" ;)

In other words, instead of sniping at Scripture, put forth a justification for your own alternative.
 
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sculleywr

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Of course they do. :doh:

Ummm...Which Thesaurus are you reading again? No they do not, in any logical sense of the word. Just because something is pure and true does not make it COMPLETE. And COMPLETENESS is necessary for one to be the HIGHEST authority. Scripture isn't the highest authority just because you make an imaginary goalpost to kick through. Now get out there

Again, you don't seem to understand what Sola Scripture is or means. So, why don't we approach this from a different angle, then?

You believe that the Bible IS divine revelation--because your church does. So, given that as a truism, what argument can be made for Man's customs and legends being its equal?

There is nothing in Scripture that says "Follow Holy Tradition when deciding doctrine." Or should I demand that you find the exact wording somewhere in Scripture that says "That which Men call 'Sacred Tradition' is as authoritative as God's word?" ;)

In other words, instead of sniping at Scripture, put forth a justification for your own alternative.
Either DEFINE THE TERM OR STOP FALSELY ACCUSING ME OF USING A WRONG TERM. Get it? Got it? Good. I'm using Martin Luther's definition and the modern definition which is easily accessible and written in VERY CLEAR TERMS. Now either stop waffling and directly PROVE that I'm not attacking YOUR definition of Sola Scriptura by actually defining it, or drop it because you're going nowhere. As I said earlier, I will not engage you on the topic until you do that very freaking easy task.

And to be frank, it is insulting to think you're so superior that you don't have to define the terms when you're constantly going on about the definition being wrong. Get off that high horse and get down here with us peasants
 
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