Does the Bahai' religion...

jackcv · Nov 27, 2015

LoAmmi said:
Have you considered that it isn't as important in Judaism as it is in Christianity? Yes, we look forward to the Messiah, but our job is to keep the Torah. Yes, we're curious as to what happens after we die, but our job is to keep the Torah. The Torah and HaShem are important. Wasting our time looking for the Messiah and dreaming what will happen after death isn't. We think this was done on purpose.

Done on purpose, as a red herring, a diversion? Whose purpose does this serve? It certainly did not serve Jesus, the 12 apostles or Paul very well, did it? They were harassed, beaten, and killed for it.

Purpose is a very seminal word. A respected colleague of mine, very bright, successful Jewish fellow whom I respect highly often says, our purpose determines everything we do. So, if you are not studying and emulating the Greatest Example of Savior that anyone could imagine, if you are not hoping and dreaming about what you plan to do in the eternity that follows this blink-of-an-eye moment in the lobby, what in the world is your purpose?

jackcv · Nov 27, 2015

LoAmmi said:
See, that's what you're not getting. I never said that he wasn't special.

You may not have said those words, but what you said carried that meaning very clearly. Just a guy who happens to be there in the right place at the right time.

smaneck · Nov 27, 2015

jackcv said:
We can't let this one go, Smaneck. Paul is the only eyewitness to the risen Christ?

I said the only eyewitness account we have in the NT.

Even thinking only of the writers of the NT, Peter and John, at the least are eyewitnesses.

Peter doesn't tell us what he saw. As for John, I suppose that depends on whether you believe he wrote the Gospel associated with his name.

Many others are named and mentioned by the various writers - including 500 mentioned by Paul. How do you just write them off?

Because their accounts are recorded in the NT. You can't go into court and say, a thousand witnesses saw thus and such. You actually have to produce the eyewitnesses.

At the very least, the truth seeker reading these repeated affirmations, has to wonder whether they might, in fact be accurate.

I am not denying the accuracy of the account of the risen Christ as Paul saw Him.

LoAmmi · Nov 27, 2015

jackcv said:
Done on purpose, as a red herring, a diversion? Whose purpose does this serve? It certainly did not serve Jesus, the 12 apostles or Paul very well, did it? They were harassed, beaten, and killed for it.

I don't believe any of them were following the correct path, so I can't comment on them.

Purpose is a very seminal word. A respected colleague of mine, very bright, successful Jewish fellow whom I respect highly often says, our purpose determines everything we do. So, if you are not studying and emulating the Greatest Example of Savior that anyone could imagine, if you are not hoping and dreaming about what you plan to do in the eternity that follows this blink-of-an-eye moment in the lobby, what in the world is your purpose?

I can imagine a savior that doesn't die and does everything that the Tanach says the person will accomplish. That, my friend, is the greatest example. Jesus, to me, is a Jew who died in Israel two thousand years ago that people mistakenly believed did more.

LoAmmi · Nov 27, 2015

jackcv said:
You may not have said those words, but what you said carried that meaning very clearly. Just a guy who happens to be there in the right place at the right time.

Let's say that the Messiah is as important as King David is. A very important person, someone who we care about and who's life we know, but not someone we should worship or someone that goes in place of HaShem or HaShem's commandments.

dfw69 · Nov 29, 2015

LoAmmi said:
I don't believe any of them were following the correct path, so I can't comment on them.

I can imagine a savior that doesn't die and does everything that the Tanach says the person will accomplish. That, my friend, is the greatest example. Jesus, to me, is a Jew who died in Israel two thousand years ago that people mistakenly believed did more.

loammi have you ever had a converstion on this forum with a fellow jew who is a believer in christ?

are their any christian jews on this forum that can show loammi how christ is the messiah?....i would love to follow that conversation....calling all christian jews to witness to my friend loammi.... if there are any here...any jews willing to share his knowledge of torah that is for christ? ....

smaneck · Nov 29, 2015

dfw69 said:
loammi have you ever had a converstion on this forum with a fellow jew who is a believer in christ?

Loammi would not consider someone who believed in Christ a Jew.

dfw69 · Nov 29, 2015

smaneck said:
Loammi would not consider someone who believed in Christ a Jew.

He is still a Jew if he is of one of the bloodline of the tribes of Israel...regardless of what he believes.....

..are you saying that any person who are of the tribes of Israel by bloodline if he leaves Judaism to become a Christian is no longer Jewish?

dfw69 · Nov 29, 2015

There has been talk that many Jews are converting to Christianity...yet I have not found evidence of this...I have no doubt some Jews have converted ...but I have not met one yet.....

gord44 · Nov 29, 2015

dfw69 said:
calling all christian jews to witness to my friend loammi

It would be a quick KO in the first or second round by LoAmmi. He is a sight to behold when defending his beliefs.

dfw69 · Nov 29, 2015

gordRedeemed said:
It would be a quick KO in the first or second round by LoAmmi. He is a sight to behold when defending his beliefs.

Lol.. it would be an interesting conversation...the. Christians Jew would have to be very knowledgeable in the ways of Judaism and Christianity...

I.personally would like to meet such a man...I have many questions to ask him

smaneck · Nov 29, 2015

dfw69 said:
He is still a Jew if he is of one of the bloodline of the tribes of Israel...regardless of what he believes.....

..are you saying that any person who are of the tribes of Israel by bloodline if he leaves Judaism to become a Christian is no longer Jewish?

That is correct. Also, if he becomes a Muslim or joins any other religion he is no longer considered a Jew.

dfw69 · Nov 29, 2015

smaneck said:
That is correct. Also, if he becomes a Muslim or joins any other religion he is no longer considered a Jew.

So regardless who his father is..if he leaves Judaism he is cut off from the promises...sold his birthright...

I Thank God the promises are in his son that he has the authority who will live in the promises land

smaneck · Nov 29, 2015

dfw69 said:
So regardless who his father is..if he leaves Judaism he is cut off from the promises...sold his birthright...

Judaism is passed through the mother's line, not the father's. But if your asking whether under Israeli law a Jewish convert gives up the "right to return" the answer is yes.

I Thank God the promises are in his son that he has the authority who will live in the promises land

Well, the territory promised to the Kingdom of Judah was the Jerusalem and points southward.

dfw69 · Nov 29, 2015

smaneck said:
Judaism is passed through the mother's line, not the father's. But if your asking whether under Israeli law a Jewish convert gives up the "right to return" the answer is yes.

I thought that if his father is of the tribe of Judah he would be a son of Judah...but you say that if his mother is of the tribe of Judah he would be a son of Judah through his mother?

No I'm saying if a Jewish man who is a Christian wishes to receive his inheritance right though he is not a believer of Judaism..

Well, the territory promised to the Kingdom of Judah was the Jerusalem and points southward.

I believe Jesus is both son of Joseph and Judah ...king of all Israel...son of Joseph by adoption son of Judah through Mary father

smaneck · Nov 29, 2015

dfw69 said:
I thought that if his father is of the tribe of Judah he would be a son of Judah...but you say that if his mother is of the tribe of Judah he would be a son of Judah through his mother?

Jews are more than the tribe of Israel. They are named more for the Kingdom Israel. But yes, his Jewish identity is passed through the mother's line, not the father's. In other words if a Jewish man marries a gentile the children will not be considered Jews unless they formally convert.

No I'm saying if a Jewish man who is a Christian wishes to receive his inheritance right though he is not a believer of Judaism..

Well, I suppose that would be up to his parent's Will.

I believe Jesus is both son of Joseph and Judah ...king of all Israel...son of Joseph by adoption son of Judah through Mary father

While Jewish identity may be passed through the female line, kingship is not. I don't think Jews had any such thing as adoption. However, if we are talking about the Kingdom of Israel, I'm not sure what Joseph has to do with that. In any case, the descendants of the Northern Kingdom were either carried off into captivity where the assimilated into the local population and disappear as a separate group, or they remained in the area, either to be forcibly converted to Judaism during the Maccabean period, or they become the Samaritans, or later convert to Christianity or Islam. In other words, the Palestinians are probably the only remnant of them we have left.

dfw69 · Nov 29, 2015

smaneck said:
Jews are more than the tribe of Israel. They are named more for the Kingdom Israel. But yes, his Jewish identity is passed through the mother's line, not the father's. In other words if a Jewish man marries a gentile the children will not be considered Jews unless they formally convert.

Well, I suppose that would be up to his parent's Will.

While Jewish identity may be passed through the female line, kingship is not. I don't think Jews had any such thing as adoption. However, if we are talking about the Kingdom of Israel, I'm not sure what Joseph has to do with that. In any case, the descendants of the Northern Kingdom were either carried off into captivity where the assimilated into the local population and disappear as a separate group, or they remained in the area, either to be forcibly converted to Judaism during the Maccabean period, or they become the Samaritans, or later convert to Christianity or Islam. In other words, the Palestinians are probably the only remnant of them we have left.

Somehow God will seal 144000 of the tribes of Israel in the future who will witness against the idol in the temple and preach the gospel...so I don't know if they are truly lost or if gentiles who converted to Christianity will be named children of Israel...

God said he will join Israel kingdom and kingdom of Judah into one people..so I don't know how that is possible if Israel is lost ....

smaneck · Nov 29, 2015

dfw69 said:
Somehow God will seal 144000 of the tribes of Israel in the future who will witness against the idol in the temple and preach the gospel...so I don't know if they are truly lost or if gentiles who converted to Christianity will be named children of Israel...

I found a reference to an idol of the Beast in Revelation but no mention of it being located in the Temple. Likewise it doesn't say that the 144000 will witness against the idol, but only that they will bear God's seal rather than the seal of the Beast. I think you are conflating Revelation with the reference to the idol in the Book of Daniel known as the Abomination. That was an idol of one of the Hellenistic emperors. Putting an idol of him inside the Temple is what sparked the Maccabean Revolt.

God said he will join Israel kingdom and kingdom of Judah into one people..so I don't know how that is possible if Israel is lost ....

Well, if the Jews and Palestinians can learn to get along, that might be a sign that the Messiah has come.

LoAmmi · Nov 29, 2015

dfw69 said:
I thought that if his father is of the tribe of Judah he would be a son of Judah...but you say that if his mother is of the tribe of Judah he would be a son of Judah through his mother?

One is Jewish if they are born of a Jewish mother or convert. You get your tribe status, however, from your father. If your father has no tribe status, you have no tribe status.

I believe Jesus is both son of Joseph and Judah ...king of all Israel...son of Joseph by adoption son of Judah through Mary father

There is no precedent for adoption conveying tribe status. If it did, one could become a Priest by being adopted by one. This is not the case, as one must be a male line descendant of Aaron to be a priest. You cannot become one no matter the means you use.

Jesus actually is outside of the male line descent from David through Solomon and is, thus, disqualified from sitting on the throne.

dfw69 · Nov 29, 2015

smaneck said:
I found a reference to an idol of the Beast in Revelation but no mention of it being located in the Temple. Likewise it doesn't say that the 144000 will witness against the idol, but only that they will bear God's seal rather than the seal of the Beast. I think you are conflating Revelation with the reference to the idol in the Book of Daniel known as the Abomination. That was an idol of one of the Hellenistic emperors. Putting an idol of him inside the Temple is what sparked the Maccabean Revolt.

Paul spoke of the man of sin sitting in.the temple of God....Maccabean revolt against the Assyrian had already took place....Paul was referring to a future event that will proceed before Jesus would return

Yes I assume a lot ... 144000 witnessing against the idol is a bit stretching I suppose

....but having the seal of God ...they will witness against the beast seal...or Mark of the beast which is not effective until the idol is in place rev 13

Well, if the Jews and Palestinians can learn to get along, that might be a sign that the Messiah has come.

Your saying that the Palestines will be seen as Israel and given their portion of the lands divided when messiah comes?...that the Muslims will convert back to Judaism and the war will end as a sign ?

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