The gift of Tongues

Shane658 said:

Are you saying that those who don't speak in tongues do not have the Holy Spirit?Did I understand that correctly?

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Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? - 1 Corinthians 12:29

Tongues is a gift. If you speak in tongues you have the Gift of the Holy Spirit. According to the above scripture not all Christians have this gift. When Paul laid hands upon the following the Holy Ghost came upon them, along with the tongues and prophesying.

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. - Acts 19

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6

Just a little bit of ego makes the whole lump bad. Ego swelters the camel, making it extremely difficult for the professor to become small enough to get the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. - Matthew 12:24

The Pharisees were saying that the Lord Jesus Christ did his miracles by the devil, when of matter of fact he was doing miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit. He told them that such sins against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. It is a dangerous thing to say that a Christian is not speaking in tongues through the Power of the Holy Spirit, but it is something else. You are not belittling the Christian, but his underlying power, which is the Holy Spirit. So it is a dangerous thing to say someone has not the Holy Spirit when in reality he does.

Knowing the life of the lady speaking in tongues in the following video, I have no reason to believe that this was not a working of the Holy Spirit...

I must say here that I am a Wesleyan Pentecostal. I believe that there are three steps required for the ultimate Chrsitian spiritual walk.

1. Salvation - Very easy! Believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.
2. Sanctification - The process between Salvation and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit
3. Baptism in the Holy Spirit - Many get this with speaking in tongues.

One of my favorite Pentecostals was in the person of Smith Wigglesworth.

1. Born in 1859
2. Saved at age 8 at a Wesleyan Methodist revival
3. Experienced Christ anew at a Salvation Army revival as a teenager
4. Married and opened a mission at age 23 in 1882
5. Claimed sanctification at the age of 34 in 1893 as taught by the Keswick preachers
6. Filled with the Holy Spirit with tongues in 1907 at the age of 48
7. Became a world-wide evangelist in 1913 at the age of 54.

So it took Smith Wigglesworth a long time to get through the sanctifying process, but once he did he became a mighty man of God. And some notes I have taken from Smith Wigglesworth books...

Smith Wigglesworth also emphasizes that the Giver is to be received before the gifts. Salvation always precedes sanctification, and sanctification will always precede the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification prepares the body for the Holy Spirit, and when the body is rightly prepared for the Holy Spirit, and then it is the work of Jesus to baptize with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then makes Jesus king in your life; you regard him as Lord and Master over all things, and you become submissive to him in all things. You are not afraid to say, “You are mine! I love you!”

Smith Wigglesworth, like his earlier Methodist mentors, believed sanctification as something that sweetens the spirit up, making people more spiritual and loving. His wife once testified that she knew Smith was sanctified when he quit complaining about his food. Wigglesworth states that we are sanctified so that nothing hinders us in the manifestation of the Glory of God. In this way we are robbed of all pride, evil, and freely led of the Spirit. Evil thoughts come from the unclean believer, the man who is not entirely sanctified.

Wigglesworth also stresses obedience as a fruit of sanctification. "The Word is to be swallowed, not prayed over! If you ever pray over the Word of God there is some disobedience; where there is some disobedience; you are not willing to obey. If you come into the election of the sanctification of the Spirit, you will be obedient in everything concerning that Word. In the measure you are not obedient, you have not come into the sanctification of the Spirit". – Smith Wigglesworth, New Zealand, 1922

“The difference between those being led by the Holy Spirit and those who are deceived by Satan is joy, gladness, and a good countenance instead of sadness, sorrow, and depression. Jesus comes with joy into the soul and lifts you higher and higher, it is the spirit who gives light. When satanic power begins to rule; then there is weariness, then people’s faces are like a tragedy, and then their eyes glare as though they have passed through a terrible trial. You are always right to test the spirits (1 John 4:1), if not you will be sure to be caught napping.” – Smith Wigglesworth

rockytopva said:

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? - 1 Corinthians 12:29

Tongues is a gift. If you speak in tongues you have the Gift of the Holy Spirit. According to the above scripture not all Christians have this gift. When Paul laid hands upon the following the Holy Ghost came upon them, along with the tongues and prophesying.

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. - Acts 19

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6

Just a little bit of ego makes the whole lump bad. Ego swelters the camel, making it extremely difficult for the professor to become small enough to get the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. - Matthew 12:24

The Pharisees were saying that the Lord Jesus Christ did his miracles by the devil, when of matter of fact he was doing miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit. He told them that such sins against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. It is a dangerous thing to say that a Christian is not speaking in tongues through the Power of the Holy Spirit, but it is something else. You are not belittling the Christian, but his underlying power, which is the Holy Spirit. So it is a dangerous thing to say someone has not the Holy Spirit when in reality he does.

Knowing the life of the lady speaking in tongues in the following video, I have no reason to believe that this was not a working of the Holy Spirit...

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Okay I agree with that ,about not all having the Gift. My disagreement as you already know, Is that it ceased.There are many pagan religions that do that same thing.Do they have the Holy Spirit?Is it not possible the person could be faking it or have a mental disorder?
Mark 16:17 My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."If i saw this in person and was provided evidence I would be more convinced than what goes on in these churches.

Shane658 said:

Okay I agree with that ,about not all having the Gift. My disagreement as you already know, Is that it ceased.There are many pagan religions that do that same thing.Do they have the Holy Spirit?Is it not possible the person could be faking it or have a mental disorder?
Mark 16:17 My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."If i saw this in person and was provided evidence I would be more convinced than what goes on in these churches.

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Discerning the Gift of the Holy Spirit is both dangerous and quirky. A saint does not have strange behavioral patterns. It is best to spend some time with this individual and mark their conduct, as a bad tree cannot produce good fruit you should know. Smith Wigglesworth was up in years before he got the Holy Spirit with the speaking of tongues. I love the story as he was allowed to go through the timely process of sanctification and have done a video tribute...

rockytopva said:

Discerning the Gift of the Holy Spirit is both dangerous and quirky. A saint does not have strange behavioral patterns. It is best to spend some time with this individual and mark their conduct, as a bad tree cannot produce good fruit you should know. Smith Wigglesworth was up in years before he got the Holy Spirit with the speaking of tongues. I love the story as he was allowed to go through the timely process of sanctification and have done a video tribute...

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Why did Smith Wigglesworth punch people to heal them?Ive read he would punch people to heal them.

Shane658 said:

Why did Smith Wigglesworth punch people to heal them?Ive read he would punch people to heal them.

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He had this practice early on but ceased from it. I believe that an Irish woman from Chicago hit him back one service which helped put an end to that practice. Hitting people was not a good idea.

rockytopva said:

He had this practice early on but ceased from it. I believe that an Irish woman from Chicago hit him back one service which helped put an end to that practice. Hitting people was not a good idea.

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My problem is that it seems that many followers continued to follow him during that time period he did those things even though it didn't line up with scripture.If I walked in that church at that time would I be wrong to believe that what he was doing wasn't from God?

As long as we are in the flesh we all have issues. The Apostle Paul found fault with the very Apostle Peter...

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. - Galatians 2

In which the proper thing to do is to speak to the individual about it...

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? - Galatians 2

We all have our issues... In which my take of the seven church ages...

Ephesus - Apostolic - We all like to think our church is the closest to the Apostolic!
Smyrna - Martyr - Early Orthodox formed in this time.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

The churches had their issues.

Ephesus - Apostolic - Left their first love. The Apostle Paul writes of all Asia as of having forsaken him.
Smyrna - Martyr - Foxes has the persecutions as ten. Very little issue with the martyred church.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy - The Nicolaitanes - There were barbaric issues as we are in the time of the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate. I do not believe this spirit any longer in the Catholic church.
Sardis - Protestantism A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid - Doctrine in the head... Little in the heart
Philadelphia - Wesleyism - "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:" No more go out - They were in and out of revival.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

In which, again, we all have our issues. There are no perfect Christians or churches. You can find issue with each one. The Christian that I find least fault in was John Bunyan. As far as the man to whom God looks...

For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. - Isaiah 66:2

There are many no-names out there whom we will never know, but are dear to God.

Shane658 said:

My problem is that it seems that many followers continued to follow him during that time period he did those things even though it didn't line up with scripture.If I walked in that church at that time would I be wrong to believe that what he was doing wasn't from God?

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I do not think Smith Wigglesworth would have made it out of England if he hit people and they did not get well.

Shane658 said:

No he has not hit any of us causing your so called "Punch drunks", Many of us have quoted scripture multiple times to your claims.Your claims do not match up with whats in the bible but rather what you want it to mean.

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Earth to Shane....hello...are you there? What exactly do you think you're doing????

You want us to follow what your experience is rather than what the bible says.

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Follow our experience....YES!...but to do so "rather than what the bible says"....would be what the bible considers an "ignorant" assumption to make of us, I believe. But until one is humble enough to admit being "unlearned/ungifted" how can they, by faith, ever hope to even receive?

The bible is what is to be gone by as the bases of truth and not someones personal experience.

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True, true, OH and BTW that is exactly happened to me. I was at a bible study and 6 months old as a new Christian, when a brother and his wife from the study invited 5 of us to his house and 'WENT THROUGH THE BIBLE' showing us all the scriptures on receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. Unlike you, I didn't argue like the "ungifted/unlearned" Christian I was. What did I do? I RAN, it scared me, I never heard of 'that' before in 'the few "UNGIFTED" churches I'd been too'. But before leaving I agreed to look at those scriptures again... and PRAY...and then come back in a few days with the other 4 "ungifted/unlearned" brethren....who were just as freaked as I was. When we all went back, unlike you, I didn't 'fight it', and I didn't fear it like I had before. What I did do though was....I WANTED it...and I got it.

You seem to be arguing rather than debating to prove a point on Tongues.

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Hello...Earth to Shane...welcome to OUR POV concerning you. You can't even see you've lost the debate. And I'd already decided it was dumb of me to debate you. But your comment to Biblicist was just too tooo toooo YOU. But I'll happily quit with this post.

The difference between the babbling you call a language and a real language is that a real languages meanings are consistent.If I were to record any one of these claims of speaking in Tongues and took it to be heard by two separate Interpreters in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement would I get the same Interpretation?Or would I end up getting two different Interpretation? Ill go with the last one.

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Your very 'litmus' here proves you still know nothing concerning what we have said.

Paul addressed THREE groups; 'Christians who were gifted', 'Christians who were not gifted', and 'unbelievers who weren't saved'. Now you prove to me what group you are in and why you belong there and we don't.

rockytopva said:

I do not think Smith Wigglesworth would have made it out of England if he hit people and they did not get well.

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Probably wouldn't have made it out 'whipping and running out all the modern day money changers' either...I suspect.

Hillsage said:

Earth to Shane....hello...are you there? What exactly do you think you're doing????


Follow our experience....YES!...but to do so "rather than what the bible says"....would be what the bible considers an "ignorant" assumption to make of us, I believe. But until one is humble enough to admit being "unlearned/ungifted" how can they, by faith, ever hope to even receive?


True, true, OH and BTW that is exactly happened to me. I was at a bible study and 6 months old as a new Christian, when a brother and his wife from the study invited 5 of us to his house and 'WENT THROUGH THE BIBLE' showing us all the scriptures on receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. Unlike you, I didn't argue like the "ungifted/unlearned" Christian I was. What did I do? I RAN, it scared me, I never heard of 'that' before in 'the few "UNGIFTED" churches I'd been too'. But before leaving I agreed to look at those scriptures again... and PRAY...and then come back in a few days with the other 4 "ungifted/unlearned" brethren....who were just as freaked as I was. When we all went back, unlike you, I didn't 'fight it', and I didn't fear it like I had before. What I did do though was....I WANTED it...and I got it.

Hello...Earth to Shane...welcome to OUR POV concerning you. You can't even see you've lost the debate. And I'd already decided it was dumb of me to debate you. But your comment to Biblicist was just too tooo toooo YOU. But I'll happily quit with this post.

Your very 'litmus' here proves you still know nothing concerning what we have said.

Paul addressed THREE groups; 'Christians who were gifted', 'Christians who were not gifted', and 'unbelievers who weren't saved'. Now you prove to me what group you are in and why you belong there and we don't.

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Very interesting. I will be sure to pray for you.

Albion said:

Except that that's not the case.

There are more than a few relatively large church bodies (non-Pentecostal ones) that do not belong.

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Your reference to a "few relatively large church bodies" is certainly spot on, where I believe that even the Salvation Army decided about 20 years back not to join, where I hope nothing has changed here. But in an earlier post you made reference to there being "thousands of denominations" where I pointed out that most of them would be rather small even to the point of insignificance.

I have absolutely no doubt that given the hypothetical choice, that the WCC would sacrifice a few thousand small denominations for the International AoG at a heartbeat. As long as they do not have a credible and sizable Pentecostal denomination within their ranks then they know that we will only see them as a bastion of liberalism and cessationism where they lack any real credibility with the maybe 200-300 worldwide Pentecostals; in fact, why would we Pentecostals see the need to join such an insignificant organisation as the WCC; where we don't need them but I know full well that they desperately desire and need us!

Shane658 said:

Are you saying that those who don't speak in tongues do not have the Holy Spirit?Did I understand that correctly?

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Rocky is speaking from within the older classic-Pentecostal position where the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is meant to be subsequent to our first being 'sealed' in (or with) the Holy Spirit at the moment of our initial conversion.

This position is certainly held by the AoG but it has become increasingly out of favour with most Pentecostal scholars (incl. the AoG scholar Gordon Fee) and with virtually all charismatic scholars. This newer non-classic Pentecostal position recognises that each and every Christian (even if they do not speak in tongues) that we are all Baptised in the Holy Spirit; but a Pentecostal recognises that the New Testament pattern was for all new Christians to be empowered to be able to pray in the Spirit (tongues).

Shane658 said:

I could say the same when you said This... "If tongues were ever meant to be in a human language then why would we need to have someone interpret the tongue and obviously there was no need for interpretations on the Day of Pentecost.

What most cessationists fail to note is that if a tongue was able to be given to the Father in a human language, that Paul would have had to address this very serious issue as it would be easy for any atheist to pretend that someone was cursing the name of Jesus - it would be an absolute nightmare!


And you never will as tongues are never spoken in a human language . . . simplezzzz!"

I provided scripture of Acts 2 after, made my point and moved on.Interpret the language so that everyone else who was not native to the language being spoken by the Tongue speaker could understand. I don't see the point you are trying to make in that last part.









He is not recommending them to pray an unknown language when praying, he explaining it.EXAMPLE..Read this to yourself out loud"
Je suis en train d'expliquer son point" You are speaking an unknown language but a real human language.You don't know what you just said and according to verse 13 explains what you should do since you don't understand.'Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.So that you can understand. Lets look at the Next verse"Verse 14"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. If I told you to pray what was posted above would you not say that you are praying in an unknown tongue?Yes you are, would you not say that your understanding is unproductive or useless? Yes because do not understand what is being said.Verse 15 "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."Paul is telling them what they should do and how it should be in verse 15. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?Here again he is making another point against speaking in a language no one understands.Verse 16 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.That is not a Good thing he is saying.
A poster quoted this verse earlier, which was an excellent point."Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.



Wasn't a similar response given in Acts 2?
Acts 2 Verse 11 states"Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."
They spoke in human Languages according to Acts 2 verse 7-11. and following In verse 13-15 we see that they were called "drunken".They were speaking human languages but to those that could not understand the language called them "Drunk".
Acts 2 verse 13-15"Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:"For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day."
The language being spoken was a known language to those that understood it and an unknown language to those who did not.
Its the same thing in Corinthians.If they spoke in tongue that no one understood, someone would called them "Mad"
Being called "Drunken" is as bad as being called "Mad".
The tongues spoken of in Corinthians is the same as Acts.Now in order for someone to call someone Mad the hearer most likely could not understand the language being spoken.The Corinthians Church was speaking in human languages just like those of Acts but used it incorrectly.They are a church of ERROR. They were not Edifying a church if no one understood them and where not prophesying.

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As you have obviously spent some time with your post this means that I would like to be able to reply but from my perspective you appear to have far too many disjointed comments which makes it very hard for me to reply. If you could maybe keep to a single point per post this would unboubtedly help . . . thanks.

swordsman1 said:

. . . . .

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As the time is now late I will get back to your post sometime tomorrow night my time.

Many tongue speakers which many folks label foolish, seem to walk more in Holy Living and Power. Meanwhile, the ignorant bashers never have any experience from their seemingly intelligent worships.

I was recently involved in very rigorous spiritual battles. Amidst the battle, a spiritual black cat that always comes to disturb me and my neighbors desisted in its maneuvers and disturbances forever, after I prayed against it in other tongues for only two minutes.

Some days back, the Holy Spirit woke me up in the middle of the night at the instance of a confederate attack by hundreds of evil spirits that I perceived in my spirit. And the tool with which I got my immediate and cheap victory by the grace of God, was praying in unknown tongues for a few minutes.

That particular night the kingdom of darkness suffered a great loss just by my few minutes of praying against them in other tongues as the Holy spirit alerted me. And tell you what, I never knew what I was saying in those minutes of speaking in tongues for the spiritual warfare, but yet I got the victory very fast.

You see the devil and his religious demons attacks this gift (other tongues) and indeed other spiritual gifts so much because they know how potent they are in dealing with them in spiritual battles.

And it burdens me so much, that he has succeeded in deluding so many inexperienced believers, and has consequently be taking undue advantage of them.

But I want to beseech those who do not yet believe in this potent spiritual gift to quickly believe for their own good.
Because the Bible says, a bad tree cannot bring bad fruit. And again the bible says by their fruits you shall know them.

Praying in tongues aids in the process of sanctification, of which I'm one of the living witness to that. Praying in tongues triggers other spiritual gifts such as: Faith, Working Of Miracles, Healings, Prophecy, Word of Knowledge and Wisdom and the rest. Most of which I'm also a living witness, with several personal testimony to show.

So my dear, like the Apostle Paul Admonishes, "Forbid not to speak in other tongues".

rockytopva said:

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? - 1 Corinthians 12:29

Tongues is a gift. If you speak in tongues you have the Gift of the Holy Spirit. According to the above scripture not all Christians have this gift. When Paul laid hands upon the following the Holy Ghost came upon them, along with the tongues and prophesying.

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. - Acts 19

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6

Just a little bit of ego makes the whole lump bad. Ego swelters the camel, making it extremely difficult for the professor to become small enough to get the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. - Matthew 12:24

The Pharisees were saying that the Lord Jesus Christ did his miracles by the devil, when of matter of fact he was doing miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit. He told them that such sins against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. It is a dangerous thing to say that a Christian is not speaking in tongues through the Power of the Holy Spirit, but it is something else. You are not belittling the Christian, but his underlying power, which is the Holy Spirit. So it is a dangerous thing to say someone has not the Holy Spirit when in reality he does.

Knowing the life of the lady speaking in tongues in the following video, I have no reason to believe that this was not a working of the Holy Spirit...

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Hmmm................. So you refute the words of Paul? He plainly laid out the 'RULES of tongues'. I see NO interpreter. And let us take into consideration these words:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

The ENTIRE chapter is speaking specifically of 'tongues'. And the most important part is the last verse: "If ANY man THINK himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you ARE the commandments of the Lord".

Now, if the commandment of the Lord is for women to remain SILENT in the 'church', how do you suppose it's possible for the woman in the video to be speaking in 'tongues'?

I have always found it amusing that in every instance I have ever experienced of people 'speaking gibberish' in the 'church' and referring to it as tongues, the majority, (sometimes ONLY), members SPEAKING are WOMEN. Like Paul's words are meaningless. The speakers 'self edification' being MORE important than Biblical instruction.

So, what say ye? Paul's words useless and worthy of nothing but 'being ignored'? Or did he offer his words so that we can compare them to what we witness in the video? I would say that the very REASON for Paul's words were for our edification in recognizing that whatever this woman is DOING is contrary to the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican said:

Hmmm................. So you refute the words of Paul? He plainly laid out the 'RULES of tongues'. I see NO interpreter. And let us take into consideration these words:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

The ENTIRE chapter is speaking specifically of 'tongues'. And the most important part is the last verse: "If ANY man THINK himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you ARE the commandments of the Lord".

Now, if the commandment of the Lord is for women to remain SILENT in the 'church', how do you suppose it's possible for the woman in the video to be speaking in 'tongues'?

I have always found it amusing that in every instance I have ever experienced of people 'speaking gibberish' in the 'church' and referring to it as tongues, the majority, (sometimes ONLY), members SPEAKING are WOMEN. Like Paul's words are meaningless. The speakers 'self edification' being MORE important than Biblical instruction.

So, what say ye? Paul's words useless and worthy of nothing but 'being ignored'? Or did he offer his words so that we can compare them to what we witness in the video? I would say that the very REASON for Paul's words were for our edification in recognizing that whatever this woman is DOING is contrary to the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

MEC

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Well, Paul's context of women being quiet in the Church, does not actually refer to Church services. But rather in their relationships with their husbands. They are admonished by Paul to be silent or subjective to their husband. Not that Paul literally meant women should be silent in the Church.

Remember the same Apostle Paul that gave that injunction says women should cover their hair when prophesying. And of course, if women are prophesying in Church, they can't possibly be mute. Others in the Church definitely will hear their voices (or what do you think).

You know lack of understanding of scriptures and legalism have led many people to so many ridiculous and comic arts in the church.

Many churches who do not understand the context of Apostle Pauls injunction, says a woman should not preach on the alter, yet the women can teach in Sunday schools in the Church. While some others says, the women can't teach inside the main church building but only outside the Church building. But with these myopic practices, they undermine the fact that a church is not limited to only a building. But rather, anywhere two or three people are gathered together in the name of Jesus.

The same Apostle Paul says, " For in Christ Jesus, there are neither male nor female in Christ Jesus". So scripturally, a woman definitely should speak, pray, prophesy and even teach in the Church. But when she gets home to her husband, she should be silent or submissive to her husband as a Christian (Church) lady.

Biblicist said:

Your reference to a "few relatively large church bodies" is certainly spot on, where I believe that even the Salvation Army decided about 20 years back not to join, where I hope nothing has changed here. But in an earlier post you made reference to there being "thousands of denominations" where I pointed out that most of them would be rather small even to the point of insignificance.

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Well, sure. That's because most of the thousands of denominations that exist are rather small. But you were including the smallest of the Pentecostal churches in your assessment when you said that no Pentecostal denomination is a member of the WCC. You didn't just say that the Assemblies of God, for example, has declined membership.

in fact, why would we Pentecostals see the need to join such an insignificant organisation as the WCC; where we don't need them but I know full well that they desperately desire and need us!

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Really?