PENANCE ( CONFESSION ) found in scripture...

you know, sacraments, and penance are both later developments, and are probably not the meaning of the text. John 20 is closer in meaning to the Lord's prayer "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who have sinned against us" than to a Medieval Catholic understanding of penance.

As per your title of this thread.....

Confession is very pertinent in the Bible, in the Old and New Testaments. It was required that men be more explicit in the OT as to confessing their sins to the priest that served in the tabernacle, and the priest would make a sin offering on his behalf for forgiveness.

In the NT it became such that by simply asking Jesus for help, there was an implicit confession of unworthiness and fault on the part of the person because they sought help from Jesus, and were then cured by Jesus.

Penance is an interesting phenomenon. Mostly we pay penance for our own effed up choices when we assert our own will over God's. I believe serving penance gracefully is a way we can honor God and that it is implied but not stated in scripture. Like how the trinity concept is implied but not stated. Yes, Jesus' death and sacrifice is the perfect atonement for sin and our petty penance is nothing in comparison. However, our petty penance means something to US. Like a bee sting, it reminds us that our sin caused death, and that we will never repeat it.

Finally, God enforces penance Himself. People just might not always notice it, who do not have eyes to see it. It is what happens when seemingly every corner we turn we run into a closed door. Or when He holds us in a place of quiet and patience and fleshly torment until such time as He determines we have served due penance.

~selah

bigsurfer63 said:

sorry 2 say u have it wrong with your prot glasses on….

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I am Catholic as well and I can say that this kind of oppositional language is not going to help your case.

branchofthevine said:

you know, sacraments, and penance are both later developments, and are probably not the meaning of the text. John 20 is closer in meaning to the Lord's prayer "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who have sinned against us" than to a Medieval Catholic understanding of penance.

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Actually there are references to the Sacrament of Confession outside of the Bible as early as the first century. Like this found in the Didache: "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure."

This is the same theology that the Catholic Church teaches, that Catholics must confess any mortal sins before receiving the Eucharist

I believe God is pleased with repentance-true repentance is changing your attitude and way of living, a complete reversal of your mindset-but God is not pleased with penance.
Worldly remorse and punishing oneself somehow (3 Our Fathers, and 2 Hail Marys) or trying to do enough good deeds to outweigh and make up for one's sin. Both imply that we must pay for our sins-but none of us could ever do enough to pay for even one sin.
All sins violate God's perfect laws. The only sacrifice great enough to pay for our sins has been offered up-the suffering and death of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Savior. So doing penance is a great offence to God. It implies that Jesus's sacrifice and God's grace are unnecessary

jacobs well said:

Worldly remorse and punishing oneself somehow (3 Our Fathers, and 2 Hail Marys)

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Prayer is not punishment.

jacobs well said:

or trying to do enough good deeds to outweigh and make up for one's sin.

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That is not how the Sacrament of Reconciliation works. The Absolution is valid at the time it is given, if I recall correctly.

jacobs well said:

Both imply that we must pay for our sins-but none of us could ever do enough to pay for even one sin.

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No, it is how we receive the grace given to us on the cross. The Bible doesn't say that grace is a free pass: "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and in the present age to live lives that are self-controlled, upright, and godly, while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." - Titus 2:11-13

jacobs well said:

All sins violate God's perfect laws. The only sacrifice great enough to pay for our sins has been offered up-the suffering and death of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Savior. So doing penance is a great offence to God. It implies that Jesus's sacrifice and God's grace are unnecessary

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We are saved by grace and we receive that grace through the Sacraments, including the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

RenatusFueritExAqua said:

Actually there are references to the Sacrament of Confession outside of the Bible as early as the first century. Like this found in the Didache: "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure."

This is the same theology that the Catholic Church teaches, that Catholics must confess any mortal sins before receiving the Eucharist

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Interestingly the Russian Orthodox confess everything each time. In general the Orthodox confess both venial and mortal sins, sometimes in a formulaic manner. Penances are quite rare although canonical.

Wgw said:

Interestingly the Russian Orthodox confess everything each time. In general the Orthodox confess both venial and mortal sins, sometimes in a formulaic manner. Penances are quite rare although canonical.

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Catholics confess everything too, but I believe only mortal sins have to be confessed. You should confess venial sins, but I think it's not a problem if you forget.

I'm not an expert on the specifics.

RenatusFueritExAqua said:

Actually there are references to the Sacrament of Confession outside of the Bible as early as the first century. Like this found in the Didache: "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure."

This is the same theology that the Catholic Church teaches, that Catholics must confess any mortal sins before receiving the Eucharist

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Didache 14:1, a good reference, I have quite enjoyed that book. But, looking at it, when it says "having first confessed your sins," there isn't the impression for me anyways that this is a confession to a priest. Probably because of my presuppositions to the text, but I'm not convinced that simply confess your sins is the same as a later Catholic interpretation. Granted the Church starts becoming liturgical very early on, but personally, it seems better not to force later interpretations as the readings of a text, but to still keep in mind that they do develop from reading these kinds of texts.

om_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Rom_15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Php_2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jas_5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn_4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.



Haven't encountered anything that says we are to go to a priest to have confession. That was with the Levitical priesthood and blood offerings. Jesus is our High Priest--non other is needed. When the woman was aught in adultery, what did Jesus say--"Go and sin no more"---no penance demanded of her. The paralytic dropped down from the floor by his friends, what did Jesus do---He said He forgave him his sins--then He healed Him, no penance, he was rewarded with healing instead, was not asked to do penance. We are to return what we have stolen, if we can, we are to ask forgiveness from each other, whenever possible. Restitution and penance are not the same thing. Penance and consequences are not the same thing. Penance for sins is a works oriented theology---God's grace does not demand such a thing for there is nothing that can blot out sin--the "the soul that sinneth, it shall die"-(Ezk 18:20)-that is the penalty. Jesus pays it. Adam and Eve sinned. Penalty was death. There were consequences, blood sacrifices came into being, but there was no penance--what could they have possibly done? They had to serve the sentence, but God's grace provided a way back to God.

branchofthevine said:

Didache 14:1, a good reference, I have quite enjoyed that book. But, looking at it, when it says "having first confessed your sins," there isn't the impression for me anyways that this is a confession to a priest. Probably because of my presuppositions to the text, but I'm not convinced that simply confess your sins is the same as a later Catholic interpretation. Granted the Church starts becoming liturgical very early on, but personally, it seems better not to force later interpretations as the readings of a text, but to still keep in mind that they do develop from reading these kinds of texts.

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I'm not saying that any interpretation should be forced. But at a minimum the groundwork is there.

Saying hail Marys are not true prayers. They come under the category of vain repetitions and were condemned by Jesus.
We must not confess our sins to a priest- Jesus is the only one faithful and just to forgive sins- 1John 1:9
Jesus is the only mediator between man and God- 1 Tim 2:5
Only pray to the Father, in Jesus name - John 14:13
The Lord's prayer in Matthew 6 is meant to be a model, a guideline for prayer, not a recitation

jacobs well said:

Saying hail Marys are not true prayers. They come under the category of vain repetitions and were condemned by Jesus.

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They are repetitions, but what makes them vain?

jacobs well said:

We must not confess our sins to a priest- Jesus is the only one faithful and just to forgive sins- 1John 1:9

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That's not what that quote says

jacobs well said:

Jesus is the only mediator between man and God- 1 Tim 2:5

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If you read all of 1 Tim 2 you'll see that there's a difference between intercessor and mediator. When we ask Mary to pray for us, it's in a similar way to asking a friend to pray for us.

In the Hail Mary, we ask Mary to pray for us: "pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

jacobs well said:

Only pray to the Father, in Jesus name - John 14:13

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That's not what what quote says

jacobs well said:

The Lord's prayer in Matthew 6 is meant to be a model, a guideline for prayer, not a recitation

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According to who?

The Didache (first century) instructs that the Lord's prayer be repeated three times a day:

"Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever..

Pray this three times each day."

- Didache, Chapter 8

bigsurfer63 said:

read again St John 20 22:23……when Jesus breathed on the Apostles & gave them the AUTHORITY & the keyword here is…..AUTHORITY 2 4give sins or not 2 4give sins…..dont 4get that every Catholic Bishop / Priest represent the Apostles here ( APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION )…….

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Where does that say that the laity comes to them to ask for forgiveness of sins? Where does that say that they are now Priests---Is my sentence you quoted as far as you read? Christ is still our only High Priest---He is the one that stands before God with Himself as the blood sacrifice--There is nothing that says otherwise. There is no directive to go to a priest and confess, there is no penance sanctioned. Christ made no one do penance when He forgave their sins. Again, that is works oriented theology and not in scripture.

mmksparbud said:

Where does that say that the laity cmes to them to ask for forgiveness of sins?

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"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

mmksparbud said:

Where does that say that they are now Priests---

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"Priest" is derived from"presbyter", meaning elder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Etymology

mmksparbud said:

Again, that is works oriented theology and not in scripture.

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The Sacrament of Reconciliation is not a work. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, and we receive that grace through the Sacraments. Confession is one way we receive God's grace, not a work.

Confession is not a work--penance is. No payment needed, God's grace is sufficient.

(Eph 4:32) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
(Eph 5:21) Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
(Jas 5:16) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

παράπτωμα


paraptōma

par-ap'-to-mah

From G3895; a side slip (lapse or deviation), that is, (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression: - fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass.

If you sin against someone, we are to go to the person and ask for their forgiveness. It doesn't say all laity goes to the priest for forgiveness. I realize there is nothing I can say to change your mind. And you can't change mine--sooooo-----