Gifts of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

talitha · Oct 21, 2015

Some years ago I was privileged to hear Jack Hayford speak at a conference in St.Louis on the topic of spiritual gifts. This teaching has informed my understanding of the gifts ever since then. I'll explain the basic concepts below:

We tend to lump all of the spiritual gifts listed in the Bible together and sometimes throw in some extra ones as well, and say that out of this conglomerated list, each Christian has at least one gift. A close study of the scriptures involved actually reveals three groupings of gifts which Hayford describes as the gifts of the Father, the gifts of the Son, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The gifts of the Father, sometimes called motivational gifts, are listed in Romans 12: prophecy, service, teaching, exhortation, giving, leadership, and mercy. These gifts are knit into every human being in the womb as part of his/her makeup. I like to say that this is God's personality matrix. Every person has one or two of these as a fundamental part of his/her motivation.

The gifts, or manifestations, of the Holy Spirit do not "belong" to anyone. The Holy Spirit sovereignly chooses to move through some available vessel in some specific way, and there you have it. There is a list in 1 Corinthians 12, but I am not convinced that this list is exhaustive: word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, tongues, and interpretation of tongues. As it turns out, often one person is more apt to move in a certain way than another, and that can kind of turn into a ministry - we see this with itinerant ministries of healing, for example.

The gifts of the Son are positional. Ephesians 4 says "He (Jesus) gave gifts to men (btw, this word translated "men" is anthropos - a gender-neutral word) ... some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ." These "gifts" are actually people, people on assignment.

I find it interesting that prophecy appears in every group; that helps us to compare the different areas of giftings. Gift of the Father: A person who is prophecy-motivated is driven to reveal things that were hidden or unknown, to bring truth and fresh insight to the table. Gift of the Spirit: The Holy Spirit brings revelation to a person or group of people using someone as vessel to speak the message. Gift of the Son: a person is appointed by the Lord to speak divine wisdom, revelation, insight into the life of a leader, a congregation, or a certain group or demographic of people.

In the end everyone has a gift of the Father, might be used as a vessel for a gift of the Spirit, and might at some point be appointed as a gift of the Son.

Thoughts? Arguments? More insight?

tturt · Oct 24, 2015

Never heard it presented in this manner. But I have a lot of respect for Jack Hayford.

Previously I've based everything on I Cor 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." Then it goes into the listings. (Of course, we know The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are one).

Have to think about it and research some.

Biblicist · Nov 2, 2015

Since you've submitted this thread the points that you have raised have of course been discussed in various threads in the Pentecostal/AoG forum. This means that I have a lot of sympathy for Hayfords position though I would need to add in a few qualifications.

As you would be well aware, within the recent threads in the Pentecostal/AoG forum, I have gone to great lengths to try and discourage the use of the term 'spiritual-gifts' as this is a term that neither Paul or any other Biblical author employs; where it is nothing more than a convenient term that has been employed by the various Bible translation committees for centuries.

Once we get away from this term, this helps us to see Paul's intent with the various lists; where 1Cor 12:7-11 is about the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit, 12:12-27 are about how we each differ in our service within the Son and in 12:28-31 we have the 8 Congregational Offices/Functions that the Father has established for each local congregation.

In Eph 4 Paul does use an equivalent Greek word to our English present or gift with the Greek word domata but this does not necessarily imply that each of those the things in Eph 4 are operations of the Holy Spirit, where prophesy would be the only direct operation/manifestation of the Spirit. The word domata is a common word that is used to refer to how someone gives a present to another person.

The five roles within Eph 4 are not meant to be in opposition to the 8 Congregational Offices of 1Cor 12:28-31 where the 8 Offices are for general ministry whereas the five roles in Eph 4 are for training. The same goes for Rom 12 where Paul is not trying to establish another ad-hoc list of “gifts” but where his emphasis here is with the grace of God which can be exhibited within many different ways.

now faith · Nov 26, 2015

1 Corinthians: 12. 31. But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians: 14. 1. Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. -

The Gifts in Ephesians are mainly in operation for the Church or place of worship, they have been considered ministerial gifts.

It is not a misconception the gifts mentioned in 1st Corinthians are considered spiritual gifts, due to the clear use of the term.

But your statement may be valid if using the Alexandrian translation of greek, I have not looked that up.

Pardon my response, I was responding to Biblicist

Biblicist · Nov 26, 2015

now faith said:
1 Corinthians: 12. 31. But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians: 14. 1. Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. -

One of the more well known misconceptions is with how many rank-and-file Believers are apparently completely unaware that the phrase ‘spiritual gift’ is not found anywhere within the Greek New Testament. A good example of this is contained within the two passages that you have provided which contain the phrase ‘spiritual gift’, where the Greek in 1Cor 12:31 has charismaton (GK5922/SC5486) and where 1Cor 14:1 has pneumatika (GK4461/SC4152);so we have two completely different Greek words that are only passages apart where many translations still stubbornly use our English gifts or spiritual gift for two or more Greek words, or where they at least fail to provide an adequate footnote to their inconsistent use of our English gift or spiritual gift.

Then we have the well known and notorious use of spiritual gifts in 1Cor 12:1, where this has been the traditional English rendering of pneumatikon (GK4461/SC4152). When this particular passage is addressed within the better commentaries, they will (or should) mention that the phrase ‘spiritual gift’ is probably not the better choice, where various commentators will lean toward other options, such as with spiritual matters, spirituals, spiritual things, things of the Spirit etc.

The Gifts in Ephesians are mainly in operation for the Church or place of worship, they have been considered ministerial gifts.

In Eph 4:8 Paul said that Jesus "gave gifts" to his people (GK1517/SC1390].This word is equivalent to our English present or gift where it speaks of someone either giving or leaving something behind for another; this does not imply that he provided some with a particular blessing, but that he either gave these people to the church or that he left behind some people with certain attributes.

The Greek word behind gave in Eph 4:11 is didomi (GK1443/SC1325) where the lexical form within Eph 4:11 is edoken. The mistake with this passage is to incorrectly presume that Christ imparted some form of blessing upon certain individuals, where it is better to say, that Jesus left behind certain types of people to assist with the training of the Saints. Most importantly, Paul does not equate these five roles with church government or even with ministry, but with training.

When it comes to ministry, Paul tells us in 1Cor 12:28 that “God (the Father) has established 8 Congregational Offices for each local congregation.

It is not a misconception the gifts mentioned in 1st Corinthians are considered spiritual gifts, due to the clear use of the term.

As for your statement that the phrase ‘spiritual gifts’ in First Corinthians “is clear”, all I can say here is that you are definitely on your own with your opinion on this matter as every theologian, exegetical scholar and lexicographer has and will continue to recognise the problematic use of gift/s or spiritual gift/s within First Corinthians and elsewhere for that matter. At this point of time, I currently own 14 books on First Corinthians (more to be added), where each scholar will address the contentious use of spiritual gifts in their own way, but it would be safe to say that our English spiritual gifts is not all that popular. It seems that scholarship has a bit of a “love-hate” relationship with the word ‘gift’ or ‘spiritual gift’, where it has become a problematic word that many would love to dispense with but as it has become so ingrained into popular usage it seems to be an unwanted creature that we may never be able to rid ourselves of.

The only reason that the terms gift and spiritual-gifts have been incorporated into our Bibles from the Greek, is that these words came from an age when the Person and ministry of the Holy Spirit was essentially unknown to most.

But your statement may be valid if using the Alexandrian translation of greek, I have not looked that up.

As the GNT/UBS has become the accepted Greek translation of probably 95% of scholars, where it has long superseded the old eclectic text of Erasmus, this means that you would be unlikely to come across a contermporary peer-reviewed commentary on First Corinthians (or any book of the NT) that is based on the now very antiquated Erasmian text base. I am not aware of there being any mistakes by Erasmus when it comes to the various Greek words behind our English gifts or spiritual gifts, but if there were they would be deemed to be merely an historical curiosity from a less enlightened period of time.

Edit: I failed to insert Eph 4:8 under "The Gifts in Ephesians.."

katerinah1947 · Nov 26, 2015

talitha said:
Some years ago I was privileged to hear Jack Hayford speak at a conference in St.Louis on the topic of spiritual gifts. This teaching has informed my understanding of the gifts ever since then. I'll explain the basic concepts below:

We tend to lump all of the spiritual gifts listed in the Bible together and sometimes throw in some extra ones as well, and say that out of this conglomerated list, each Christian has at least one gift. A close study of the scriptures involved actually reveals three groupings of gifts which Hayford describes as the gifts of the Father, the gifts of the Son, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The gifts of the Father, sometimes called motivational gifts, are listed in Romans 12: prophecy, service, teaching, exhortation, giving, leadership, and mercy. These gifts are knit into every human being in the womb as part of his/her makeup. I like to say that this is God's personality matrix. Every person has one or two of these as a fundamental part of his/her motivation.

The gifts, or manifestations, of the Holy Spirit do not "belong" to anyone. The Holy Spirit sovereignly chooses to move through some available vessel in some specific way, and there you have it. There is a list in 1 Corinthians 12, but I am not convinced that this list is exhaustive: word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, tongues, and interpretation of tongues. As it turns out, often one person is more apt to move in a certain way than another, and that can kind of turn into a ministry - we see this with itinerant ministries of healing, for example.

The gifts of the Son are positional. Ephesians 4 says "He (Jesus) gave gifts to men (btw, this word translated "men" is anthropos - a gender-neutral word) ... some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ." These "gifts" are actually people, people on assignment.

I find it interesting that prophecy appears in every group; that helps us to compare the different areas of giftings. Gift of the Father: A person who is prophecy-motivated is driven to reveal things that were hidden or unknown, to bring truth and fresh insight to the table. Gift of the Spirit: The Holy Spirit brings revelation to a person or group of people using someone as vessel to speak the message. Gift of the Son: a person is appointed by the Lord to speak divine wisdom, revelation, insight into the life of a leader, a congregation, or a certain group or demographic of people.

In the end everyone has a gift of the Father, might be used as a vessel for a gift of the Spirit, and might at some point be appointed as a gift of the Son.

Thoughts? Arguments? More insight?

Hi,

Hmm? I am all things at times. The gifts if you will come and go. I would love to have some remain. That is not the point. The point is to work for God. I work for all three of Them. Usually I no longer know which One I am working for anymore. All of the Sources of the gifts, at one time, I have had from each category, but I have never ever had all the gifts, nor all of them simultaneously.

Rather, it is like a mystic friend of mine told me it was for her, the gifts, the graces are a ticket to get on a train ride. The ride, the train ride is your yes, to suffer for Jesus. It is Jesus for her. He asks her each time, if she is willing to suffer for Him. She then gets what she needs to do that thing, for Jesus.

LOVE,

now faith · Nov 28, 2015

Biblicist said:
One of the more well known misconceptions is with how many rank-and-file Believers are apparently completely unaware that the phrase ‘spiritual gift’ is not found anywhere within the Greek New Testament. A good example of this is contained within the two passages that you have provided which contain the phrase ‘spiritual gift’, where the Greek in 1Cor 12:31 has charismaton (GK5922/SC5486) and where 1Cor 14:1 has pneumatika (GK4461/SC4152);so we have two completely different Greek words that are only passages apart where many translations still stubbornly use our English gifts or spiritual gift for two or more Greek words, or where they at least fail to provide an adequate footnote to their inconsistent use of our English gift or spiritual gift.

Then we have the well known and notorious use of spiritual gifts in 1Cor 12:1, where this has been the traditional English rendering of pneumatikon (GK4461/SC4152). When this particular passage is addressed within the better commentaries, they will (or should) mention that the phrase ‘spiritual gift’ is probably not the better choice, where various commentators will lean toward other options, such as with spiritual matters, spirituals, spiritual things, things of the Spirit etc.

In Eph 4:8 Paul said that Jesus "gave gifts" to his people (GK1517/SC1390].This word is equivalent to our English present or gift where it speaks of someone either giving or leaving something behind for another; this does not imply that he provided some with a particular blessing, but that he either gave these people to the church or that he left behind some people with certain attributes.

The Greek word behind gave in Eph 4:11 is didomi (GK1443/SC1325) where the lexical form within Eph 4:11 is edoken. The mistake with this passage is to incorrectly presume that Christ imparted some form of blessing upon certain individuals, where it is better to say, that Jesus left behind certain types of people to assist with the training of the Saints. Most importantly, Paul does not equate these five roles with church government or even with ministry, but with training.

When it comes to ministry, Paul tells us in 1Cor 12:28 that “God (the Father) has established 8 Congregational Offices for each local congregation.

As for your statement that the phrase ‘spiritual gifts’ in First Corinthians “is clear”, all I can say here is that you are definitely on your own with your opinion on this matter as every theologian, exegetical scholar and lexicographer has and will continue to recognise the problematic use of gift/s or spiritual gift/s within First Corinthians and elsewhere for that matter. At this point of time, I currently own 14 books on First Corinthians (more to be added), where each scholar will address the contentious use of spiritual gifts in their own way, but it would be safe to say that our English spiritual gifts is not all that popular. It seems that scholarship has a bit of a “love-hate” relationship with the word ‘gift’ or ‘spiritual gift’, where it has become a problematic word that many would love to dispense with but as it has become so ingrained into popular usage it seems to be an unwanted creature that we may never be able to rid ourselves of.

The only reason that the terms gift and spiritual-gifts have been incorporated into our Bibles from the Greek, is that these words came from an age when the Person and ministry of the Holy Spirit was essentially unknown to most.

As the GNT/UBS has become the accepted Greek translation of probably 95% of scholars, where it has long superseded the old eclectic text of Erasmus, this means that you would be unlikely to come across a contermporary peer-reviewed commentary on First Corinthians (or any book of the NT) that is based on the now very antiquated Erasmian text base. I am not aware of there being any mistakes by Erasmus when it comes to the various Greek words behind our English gifts or spiritual gifts, but if there were they would be deemed to be merely an historical curiosity from a less enlightened period of time.

Edit: I failed to insert Eph 4:8 under "The Gifts in Ephesians.."

Even using the common translation used today,the context remains : Charismaton translated is unedited favor or a gift of grace.

Paul names these God given abilities individually, so I would lean to a ability given by Grace to be considered a gift.

I do not believe spiritual gifts can be manifested at the will of a individual, but only by the Holy Ghost.

Yet such manifestation is reoccurring and not a singular manifestation, the contextual intent would be a gift.

Romans: 11. 28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

There are far more documents supporting the Received Text that originated in Antioch, than the Critical text of Alexandria .

As far back as the first Church the Alexandrian people were opposed to the teaching of Christ,so I would not put much belief in their translation.

Acts: 6. 8. And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. 9. Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

I respect your knowledge of Greek and theology,but I believe The King James is the Word of God for English speaking people.

Biblicist · Nov 29, 2015

now faith said:
Even using the common translation used today,the context remains : Charismaton translated is unedited favor or a gift of grace.

What you have said is certainly true but charismaton can also be applied to those things that are not specifically Manifestations of the Spirit (aka, spiritual gifts) as per 1Cor 12:7-11 such as with Rom 5:15,16 where God is the agent of the charisma where he sent Jesus to die on our behalf. In Rom 6:23 Paul refers to the salvation that we received through Jesus as being a charisma that was sent from God as well.

In Rom 11:29 Paul uses the phrase "for God's charisms and his call are irrevocable" where Paul is speaking of the election of God with regard to Israel who were once the children of the Promise but who are now cursed; at least up until near the time that the Lord returns where they will again be restored to him.

Rom 12 is an interesting case where the seven roles are often collectively referred to as being charisms but in my opinion (and I would be in the minority), the only role here that I see as a charisma would be with prophecy. As to the remaining six roles, I do not believe (again, I am in the vast minority) that Paul ever intended to refer to them as charisma's but they he intended that his readers would understand that the remaining six are natural abilities. As such, I will leave this tidbit as food for thought, or maybe dismissal.

In 2 Cor 1:11 we find Paul using charisma in "give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to your prayers". As Paul would be unlikey to refer to any Manifestations of the Spirit (aka, spiritual gifts), then the use of charisma here has a far wider application.

The "do not neglect your gift which was given you through prophecy" in 1Tim 4:14 is probably referring to Timothy's temporary appointment as an agent of Paul's; though it could also refer to other things as well but it would not be connected with prophecy, healings, tongues etc. Paul also reminds Timothy of this 'appointment' in 2Tim 1:6 where Timothy is told to "fan into flame the charisma of God".

1Pet 4:10 has "use whatever gift you have to serve..." probably covers the Manifestations of the Spirit (1Co 12:7-11) along with other forms of grace as well as the agent of these things is not mentioned, being that of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit.

Paul names these God given abilities individually, so I would lean to a ability given by Grace to be considered a gift.

Here's where it really becomes interesting in my view. As we are both Trinitarians the Scriptures therefore compel us to decide where and when each member of the Trinity is either supplying a particular type of grace (charism) or where they are each involved in a particular activity. I am of the opinion that neither the Father or the Son provide any Spiritual Manifestations (aks, spiritual gifts) as these are the sole domain of the Holy Spirit.

To keep this post from getting way over reasonable limits, I will say that I tend to believe that the Father is the sole agent of "signs and wonders" but I need to do a full study before I can come to a final conclusion on this. I find Trinitarian theology to be absolutely stimulating!!

I do not believe spiritual gifts can be manifested at the will of a individual, but only by the Holy Ghost.

I fully agree with you on this.

There are far more documents supporting the Received Text that originated in Antioch, than the Critical text of Alexandria .

As far back as the first Church the Alexandrian people were opposed to the teaching of Christ,so I would not put much belief in their translation.

Acts: 6. 8. And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. 9. Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

I respect your knowledge of Greek and theology,but I believe The King James is the Word of God for English speaking people.

Thankyou for your compliment where I think that we should probably leave this point alone for now.

By the way, my knowlege of Greek is probably highly over-rated but I do have a degree of proficiency with the various lexicons and commentaries.

now faith · Nov 29, 2015

It's a blessing to have a discussion with those who edify God's Word thank you Biblicist.

AGTG · Dec 13, 2015

Thanks for sharing this, it's an excellent analysis. And as far as prophecy showing up in every category, it makes sense. Christians are a prophetic people.

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Gifts of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

talitha

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tturt

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Biblicist

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now faith

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katerinah1947

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now faith

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now faith

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