Does it really matter what we believe?

Eudaimonist · Nov 29, 2015

anonymous person said:
Why is doing what is good, important?

Because it is one's good. That is what makes it important. Rock bottom. "Why?" is the wrong question at this point. Knowing that something is good is the same thing as knowing that it is important.

I asked Douglas Rasmussen about this once in an brief email discussion. He gave the example of a mother telling her child to eat his vegetables. The child keeps asking why. She replies: "because vegetables are good for you". That is the most basic answer she, or anyone else, can give, and it is sufficient for any why question.

Of course, the child may ask in what way vegetables are good for oneself, and the mother can explain how the nutrients in vegetables contribute to one's physical (and perhaps psychological) health, but that enters the realm of facts, not "why?" questions.

Why think that what is good is whatever fulfills our natural function as living human beings?

Why is that the good?

Natural function gives rise to the issue of the good for human beings. These aren't two arbitrary ideas stuck together. It is because we have a natural function that we have a good, and it is our good because it pertains to what we are. Our existence as human beings necessitates this good.

And who are you to determine what is good? What is bad?

"Who?" is most certainly the wrong question.

What basis do you ground your proposition on, i.e what makes the proposition: "the good is that which fulfills the natural function of living human beings?" True?

Philosophical reasoning along meta-ethical lines of ethical naturalism and natural function.

eudaimonia,

Mark

GrowingSmaller · Nov 29, 2015

Which came first "nothing matters" or the brain injury?

juvenissun · Nov 29, 2015

Gene2memE said:
They're important to us, and to the people around us that they effect. Isn't that enough?

You are one in a few billions on the earth today and one in a few hundreds of billions in the history of human. Why are things matter to you important on an absolute scale?

Eudaimonist · Nov 29, 2015

Harfelugan said:
The individual perspective is pointless by default

By default???

even if true, because it is individual.

That's silly.

Even if many individuals hold to said perspective it is still held individually, making itself impotent outside of the self.

It doesn't have to be potent outside of the self. It only needs to be potent for selves, the only thing for which this applies.

It is important only to the individual.

That's enough! That's all it has to be important for!

Many see this individual perspective as something that just has no ultimate meaning, pointless unless it' s meaning goes beyond the self.

Yes, I understand that some people, at least, hold to that view. It's their loss.

There is no correct answer to the OP, it's all preference.

A preference may be based on something that isn't arbitrary. There may be correct answers to the OP.

eudaimonia,

Mark

quatona · Nov 29, 2015

anonymous person said:
It is important because it let's us know something of God's desire for His creation.

God´s desire is important because it lets us know something about God´s desire?
If only I had known from the beginning that you would accept this sort of circular response to the question "Why is X important?"!

anonymous person · Nov 29, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
Because it is one's good. That is what makes it important. Rock bottom. "Why?" is the wrong question at this point. Knowing that something is good is the same thing as knowing that it is important.

I asked Douglas Rasmussen about this once in an brief email discussion. He gave the example of a mother telling her child to eat his vegetables. The child keeps asking why. She replies: "because vegetables are good for you". That is the most basic answer she, or anyone else, can give, and it is sufficient for any why question.

Of course, the child may ask in what way vegetables are good for oneself, and the mother can explain how the nutrients in vegetables contribute to one's physical (and perhaps psychological) health, but that enters the realm of facts, not "why?" questions.

Natural function gives rise to the issue of the good for human beings. These aren't two arbitrary ideas stuck together. It is because we have a natural function that we have a good, and it is our good because it pertains to what we are. Our existence as human beings necessitates this good.

"Who?" is most certainly the wrong question.

Philosophical reasoning along meta-ethical lines of ethical naturalism and natural function.

eudaimonia,

Mark

You have simply redefined the term "good" to mean "whatever contributes to human flourishing".

This is Sam Harris' way of holding onto objective moral values and duties without appealing to God.

All you are doing is describing under what circumstances humans flourish and I can happily agree that humans flourish under certain conditions. But to label certain conditions "good" or morally obligatory for one to work towards, you have entered into the realm of what "ought" to be or not be.

Without a transcendent anchor for our moral moorings, where the Ultimate Good by virtue of His nature as the Summum Bonum expresses to us His divine will in the form of moral commands, you cannot derive what "ought" to be from what "is".

anonymous person · Nov 29, 2015

quatona said:
God´s desire is important because it lets us know something about God´s desire?
If only I had known from the beginning that you would accept this sort of circular response to the question "Why is X important?"!

That is not what I said.

quatona · Nov 29, 2015

anonymous person said:
Without a transcendent anchor for our moral moorings, where the Ultimate Good by virtue of His nature as the Summum Bonum expresses to us His divine will in the form of moral commands, you cannot derive what "ought" to be from what "is".

It takes an authoritarean mindset to make such a statement.

quatona · Nov 29, 2015

anonymous person said:
That is not what I said.

Yes, it is. I asked "Why is it important?" You pointed to God´s desire. I asked "Why is that important?". You said "It lets us know something about God´s desire."

GrowingSmaller · Nov 29, 2015

juvenissun said:
You are one in a few billions on the earth today and one in a few hundreds of billions in the history of human. Why are things matter to you important on an absolute scale?

Nothing is absolutely important, its agent centred.

Archaeopteryx · Nov 29, 2015

anonymous person said:
You have simply redefined the term "good" to mean "whatever contributes to human flourishing".

This is Sam Harris' way of holding onto objective moral values and duties without appealing to God.

All you are doing is describing under what circumstances humans flourish and I can happily agree that humans flourish under certain conditions. But to label certain conditions "good" or morally obligatory for one to work towards, you have entered into the realm of what "ought" to be or not be.

Without a transcendent anchor for our moral moorings, where the Ultimate Good by virtue of His nature as the Summum Bonum expresses to us His divine will in the form of moral commands, you cannot derive what "ought" to be from what "is".

You have simply redefined the term "good" to mean "whatever God commands." Why would morality depend on a god's say so?

Eudaimonist · Nov 29, 2015

anonymous person said:
You have simply redefined the term "good" to mean "whatever contributes to human flourishing".

Actually, no, I haven't. That isn't even implied in what I had written.

This is Sam Harris' way of holding onto objective moral values and duties without appealing to God.

I am not the slightest bit influenced by Sam Harris on ethics. I am not taking his approach, even if some of the terminology is similar.

Without a transcendent anchor for our moral moorings, where the Ultimate Good by virtue of His nature as the Summum Bonum expresses to us His divine will in the form of moral commands, you cannot derive what "ought" to be from what "is".

I'm sure that you'd like to believe that, but your divine command theory is ultimately nonsense. How is God the "Summum Bonum" in a way that matters to us? What is that good for us when it is outside of human nature and needs? Why should divine will be important unless it is simply giving wise moral advice that we could generate ourselves from other sources? If it is just a list of "commands", so what?

Apply the silly "Why?" questions to your own ideas with the same vigor that you did to mine. Have fun.

eudaimonia,

Mark

anonymous person · Nov 29, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
You have simply redefined the term "good" to mean "whatever God commands." Why would morality depend on a god's say so?

Because God is Good and is the only One, by virtue of who He is, who is in the position to know what is best for us and has the power and Holiness to issue moral prescriptions and prohibitions as well as judge and reward them that choose not to or to follow said prescriptions and prohibitions. IOW, God is the only totally and ultimately competent authority who made man upright to walk in righteousness and whose will is to see His moral virtues inculcated and cultivated within us, creatures made in His own Image.

Archaeopteryx · Nov 29, 2015

anonymous person said:
Because God is Good and is the only One, by virtue of who He is, who is in the position to know what is best for us and has the power and Holiness to issue moral prescriptions and prohibitions as well as judge and reward them that choose not to or to follow said prescriptions and prohibitions. IOW, God is the only totally and ultimately competent authority who made man upright to walk in righteousness and whose will is to see His moral virtues inculcated and cultivated within us, creatures made in His own Image.

That doesn't answer the question. Why would morality depend on a god's say so?

Archaeopteryx · Nov 29, 2015

anonymous person said:
Because God is Good

Because he commands that he is good?

Eudaimonist · Nov 29, 2015

anonymous person said:
who is in the position to know what is best for us

Please elaborate. What is the nature of this "best for us"? What makes something better or worse for us? What does that mean to you?

eudaimonia,

Mark

anonymous person · Nov 29, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
Actually, no, I haven't. That isn't even implied in what I had written.

I am not the slightest bit influenced by Sam Harris on ethics. I am not taking his approach, even if some of the terminology is similar.

I'm sure that you'd like to believe that, but your divine command theory is ultimately nonsense. How is God the "Summum Bonum" in a way that matters to us? What is that good for us when it is outside of human nature and needs? Why should divine will be important unless it is simply giving wise moral advice that we could generate ourselves from other sources? If it is just a list of "commands", so what?

Apply the silly "Why?" questions to your own ideas with the same vigor that you did to mine. Have fun.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Well the issue here is the grounds for moral values and duties.

Your objections to Divine Command theory are not insurmountable.

You seem to think that God being the Highest Good would not matter to us. This seems obviously false. Human beings, as creatures created in His Image would derive their sense of morality from the Highest Good in whose image they were made. Asking what you have is like asking, "in what way does a parent matter to their child?"

It is in our nature to make moral judgments. We need to. This is part and parcel of being moral creatures. So I see no reason to think that these concepts are somehow outside of human nature or needs.

God's will is important for us in the same manner that an owner's manual is important for the person who just bought a car. In it, we find how we should live, what our purpose is, and how we can truly and ultimately be fulfilled as human beings.

It is not just a list of commands either. Rather it is an expression of the nature of the ultimate and highest good. As such they are our life, our light, and our necessary sustenance. This is what Jesus meant when He said that man can not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeded from the mouth of God.

anonymous person · Nov 29, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Because he commands that he is good?

No.

He is Good by definition.

I am using the word here to signify the "Summum Bonum" i.e. that greatest conceivable being possessing all composite perfections.

Archaeopteryx · Nov 29, 2015

anonymous person said:
No.

He is Good by definition.

I am using the word here to signify the "Summum Bonum" i.e. that greatest conceivable being possessing all composite perfections.

We've been over this before... Why don't you just go back to thread where this was already discussed?

juvenissun · Nov 29, 2015

bhsmte said:
The only thing that matters is the quality of life a person leads; hopefully having a positive impact on others.

I don't really care what someone believes or doesn't believe, but I am highly interested in how people justify their beliefs. That is where things can get really entertaining, from a psychological standpoint.

One believes because it benefits. Otherwise, nobody would bother.

Does it really matter what we believe?

I believe in life before death!

Muslm Humanist

... and God saw that it was good.

I believe in life before death!

"God"? What do you mean??

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

"God"? What do you mean??

"God"? What do you mean??

Muslm Humanist

Wanderer

I believe in life before death!

Well-Known Member

Wanderer

Wanderer

I believe in life before death!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Wanderer

... and God saw that it was good.

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