We got ourselves a good ol' fashion terrorist attack in Colorado

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Rather than consistently and loudly calling for the increased gun control legislation that our Bishops are calling for, some people who value Earthly political ideals above Christ's Church will waffle on about conservative States and about liberal States.

France's murder rate hovers around 1.0 per 100k. New Hampshire, the State with the lowest murder rate (and a liberal State) is also around 1.0 per 100k. Every othe American State is higher, many are several times higher. Arizona is 5.5, California 4.9, Missouri 7.0, Texas 5.0, Louisiana 9.6. The vast majority of US States have gun-only murder rates that far exceed France's murder rate by all causes.

The only gun control laws that can be really effective are laws at the Federal level, the laws our Church is pulling for. We can loudly support these pro-life measures, or we can waffle and distract like hyperpartisan cowards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tadoflamb
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,358
14,061
✟234,967.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Are you saying that you can't answer the question as I asked it?
I'm saying that I'm an Australian, and I'm not going to look up different statistics for 50 different states because you think it's going to produce the result you wanted.

If "national level consistent firearm control is needed" isn't clear to you from the fact that all developed countries that have it don't have per capita the same gun crime violence rates the US does, I really don't know how else to put it. Mucking about with irrelevancies like comparing "liberal" to "conservative" states isn't going to change the fundamental underlying principle.

edit: also what MikeK said in #93
 
Upvote 0

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,918
Vancouver
✟147,506.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
Being a Catholic does not mean checking your brain in at the door.
The intent of any gun control law is to prevent deaths, and in the American context, that must also be done in full respect of the American Constitution and American values, both of whch are admirable and steeped in the best of Christian culture.

It is hopefully not Catholic teaching to rattle off a few more laws against guns like one might recite a few Hail Marys, and then assume that one's duty as a Catholic thereby is fulfilled. The point of following Catholic teaching is to enter the debate with some clearly defined goals, first and foremost among them on the topic of guns, is to preserve lives.
 
  • Like
Reactions: benedictaoo
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Being a Catholic does not mean checking your brain in at the door.
The intent of any gun control law is to prevent deaths, and in the American context, that must also be done in full respect of the American Constitution and American values, both of whch are admirable and steeped in the best of Christian culture.

Yes, and that has been the consistent position of the Church: mandatory background checks, mandatory registraion, and stronger controls on those weapons most used by or useful to criminals. Our Bishops, the men who are here to guide us on the moral issues of our time, are not asking us to check our brains at the door, they are asking us to take specific steps to save lives.
 
Upvote 0

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,918
Vancouver
✟147,506.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
Yes, and that has been the consistent position of the Church: mandatory background checks, mandatory registraion, and stronger controls on those weapons most used by or useful to criminals. Our Bishops, the men who are here to guide us on the moral issues of our time, are not asking us to check our brains at the door, they are asking us to take specific steps to save lives.
They way to sell those points in a secular society is to make the actual argument that these steps will indeed save lives.
Take the case of a man of 57 who has never committed a mass murder before. The mental condition normally involved here is paranoid schizophrenia which is chronic and worsens over the years. Other than that, these people remain functional, until they are overcome with their delusions, and may or may not go on a rampage.
Mandatory background checks may make us all feel good we are doing something, and may be a good thing in and of themselves, but they are not going to catch this kind of condition nine times out of ten.The check will be complete long before the condition progresses to the point of danger.
Passing more laws therefore will hardly be an adequate response to this kind of situation. There would need to be a kind of 'boots on the ground' response, but even here it is difficult to say what would have an effect.
Neighbours might note that the loner at the end of the lane deep in the woods is a little bit batty, but that does not make eccentricity something that is indictable.

Registration is fine as well,like putting a bell in on a cat, but that must also include enforcement to be of any effect. Somebody has got to put the bell on the cat.
Stop and frisk took a lot of guns off the street, and saved a lot of lives. It also fan afoul of the same people who call for registration, due to it being racist and invasive and all sorts of other invectives.
Mice just cannot put those bells on the cat. Saving lives means manning up and actually finding ways of enforcing the laws that are already there.
Calling for new laws rather than enforcing the old ones is a rather brainless response at this point. It is finding ways to actually enforce the laws that will save more lives.
 
Upvote 0

S.ilvio

Newbie
Jul 16, 2011
40,463
3,952
Dublin
✟339,460.00
Country
Ireland
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
They way to sell those points in a secular society is to make the actual argument that these steps will indeed save lives.
Take the case of a man of 57 who has never committed a mass murder before. The mental condition normally involved here is paranoid schizophrenia which is chronic and worsens over the years. Other than that, these people remain functional, until they are overcome with their delusions, and may or may not go on a rampage.
Mandatory background checks may make us all feel good we are doing something, and may be a good thing in and of themselves, but they are not going to catch this kind of condition nine times out of ten.The check will be complete long before the condition progresses to the point of danger.
Passing more laws therefore will hardly be an adequate response to this kind of situation. There would need to be a kind of 'boots on the ground' response, but even here it is difficult to say what would have an effect.
Neighbours might note that the loner at the end of the lane deep in the woods is a little bit batty, but that does not make eccentricity something that is indictable.

Registration is fine as well,like putting a bell in on a cat, but that must also include enforcement to be of any effect. Somebody has got to put the bell on the cat.
Stop and frisk took a lot of guns off the street, and saved a lot of lives. It also fan afoul of the same people who call for registration, due to it being racist and invasive and all sorts of other invectives.
Mice just cannot put those bells on the cat. Saving lives means manning up and actually finding ways of enforcing the laws that are already there.
Calling for new laws rather than enforcing the old ones is a rather brainless response at this point. It is finding ways to actually enforce the laws that will save more lives.
Some very good point there that highlight the major holes in the background checks and registration proposals.

Guns are ten a penny over there...
 
Upvote 0

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,918
Vancouver
✟147,506.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
Some very good point there that highlight the major holes in the background checks and registration proposals.

Guns are ten a penny over there...
America is a very different country that any other country on earth. It is not comparable to France or Switzerland on the issue of guns, nor even countries that are more culturally similar to it that European ones, such as Canada or even Australia.
America is also a federal system rather than a centralized national system, with large cultural differences between regions. Anyone who cannot respect those differences when creating a national policy will never go far.
At this point however, what is most necessary to sell the solution of laws is to demonstrate that the laws that exist have been saving lives where they have been enacted, and if not, why not?
 
Upvote 0

S.ilvio

Newbie
Jul 16, 2011
40,463
3,952
Dublin
✟339,460.00
Country
Ireland
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
America is a very different country that any other country on earth. It is not comparable to France or Switzerland on the issue of guns, nor even countries that are more culturally similar to it that European ones, such as Canada or even Australia.
America is also a federal system rather than a centralized national system, with large cultural differences between regions. Anyone who cannot respect those differences when creating a national policy will never go far.
At this point however, what is most necessary to sell the solution of laws is to demonstrate that the laws that exist have been saving lives where they have been enacted, and if not, why not?

Its such a shame that your great country has the millstone of gun worship around its neck. But me expressing such regret won't change it.

Society leaders should lead the way out of the darkness, rid you of the paranoid fear of Government and go about your lives, truly liberated...
 
Upvote 0

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,918
Vancouver
✟147,506.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
Its such a shame that your great country has the millstone of gun worship around its neck. But me expressing such regret won't change it.

Society leaders should lead the way out of the darkness, rid you of the paranoid fear of Government and go about your lives, truly liberated...
I am a Canadian.
But I don't see gun ownership in the States as a millstone around their neck either.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

S.ilvio

Newbie
Jul 16, 2011
40,463
3,952
Dublin
✟339,460.00
Country
Ireland
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I am a Canadian.
But I don't see gun ownership in the States as a millstone around their neck either.
So you are. :)

Gun fanatics prey of an irrational fear of government as a care propaganda tool to entrench the phony thought that you need a gun in the first place...
 
Upvote 0

benedictaoo

Legend
Dec 1, 2007
34,418
7,261
✟72,332.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
If the ones on here who are trying to imply that Christians are terrorists actually believed it they would not be posting on a Christian website. But they post here all the time which shows that the truth is they have no fear of Christians.
Good point.
 
Upvote 0

benedictaoo

Legend
Dec 1, 2007
34,418
7,261
✟72,332.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
They way to sell those points in a secular society is to make the actual argument that these steps will indeed save lives.
Take the case of a man of 57 who has never committed a mass murder before. The mental condition normally involved here is paranoid schizophrenia which is chronic and worsens over the years. Other than that, these people remain functional, until they are overcome with their delusions, and may or may not go on a rampage.
Mandatory background checks may make us all feel good we are doing something, and may be a good thing in and of themselves, but they are not going to catch this kind of condition nine times out of ten.The check will be complete long before the condition progresses to the point of danger.
Passing more laws therefore will hardly be an adequate response to this kind of situation. There would need to be a kind of 'boots on the ground' response, but even here it is difficult to say what would have an effect.
Neighbours might note that the loner at the end of the lane deep in the woods is a little bit batty, but that does not make eccentricity something that is indictable.

Registration is fine as well,like putting a bell in on a cat, but that must also include enforcement to be of any effect. Somebody has got to put the bell on the cat.
Stop and frisk took a lot of guns off the street, and saved a lot of lives. It also fan afoul of the same people who call for registration, due to it being racist and invasive and all sorts of other invectives.
Mice just cannot put those bells on the cat. Saving lives means manning up and actually finding ways of enforcing the laws that are already there.
Calling for new laws rather than enforcing the old ones is a rather brainless response at this point. It is finding ways to actually enforce the laws that will save more lives.
Not to mention its impossible to get the guns out of the projects away from the gangs. That's what's really gun violence everyday day. Several times a day. And they're worried about massacres. Kids are killed on the streets by drug gangs shooting with out care for kids getting off a bus or at a child's birthday party. Those guns will never be retrieved. How do thugs get guns? That's where your energy should be spent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SolomonVII
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,496
11,193
✟213,086.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Not to mention its impossible to get the guns out of the projects away from the gangs. That's what's really gun violence everyday day. Several times a day. And they're worried about massacres. Kids are killed on the streets by drug gangs shooting with out care for kids getting off a bus or at a child's birthday party. Those guns will never be retrieved. How do thugs get guns? That's where your energy should be spent.
Yep. Every night there's another gang-related shooting in the poor, black neighborhoods around here. And they don't get their guns legally. It gets a quick mention in the local news, and then that's it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

S.ilvio

Newbie
Jul 16, 2011
40,463
3,952
Dublin
✟339,460.00
Country
Ireland
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Yep. Every night there's another gang-related shooting in the poor, black neighborhoods around here. And they don't get their guns legally. It gets a quick mention in the local news, and then that's it.
If gang bangers are popping each other off in pursuit of their trade of death and devestation because of dumb anti-drug laws, thats one thing.

We have that here too.

But you don't see schoolkids, doctors or passing shoppers being gunned down by legally held ammo. Just doesn't happen...
 
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Yep. Every night there's another gang-related shooting in the poor, black neighborhoods around here. And they don't get their guns legally. It gets a quick mention in the local news, and then that's it.

Thankfully, we have people like our Bishops who are calling for the sort of legislation that will make it possible to record all purchases, that is the first step in keeping guns out of the hands of undesirables. Unfortunately, many Americans refuse to call for the laws our Bishops know will save lives.
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,496
11,193
✟213,086.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
If gang bangers are popping each other off in pursuit of their trade of death and devestation because of dumb anti-drug laws, thats one thing.

We have that here too.

But you don't see schoolkids, doctors or passing shoppers being gunned down by legally held ammo. Just doesn't happen...
But it often happens that an innocent child gets killed because they shoot indiscriminately. This just happened within the past week or so in a neighborhood not far from mine. And it only made local news. It always only makes local news when it's a gang-related shooting, even when children are killed. Why is that?
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,496
11,193
✟213,086.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Thankfully, we have people like our Bishops who are calling for the sort of legislation that will make it possible to record all purchases, that is the first step in keeping guns out of the hands of undesirables. Unfortunately, many Americans refuse to call for the laws our Bishops know will save lives.
Gangs don't get their guns legally.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Gangs don't get their guns legally.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Regardless, the gun control legislation that our Bishops propose will make it easier to prosecute those who deal in stolen firearms or receive firearms that they cannot legally own. Let's all be pro-life and vocally support the gun control legislation that the USCCB supports!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0