LDS LDS: No Official Apology for Racism of the Past

Ironhold said:

Then your loss.

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Not really. If you don't wish to answer, just say so.

Hammster said:

Racist is a person who believes their race is superior.

A bigot is intolerant of anything they find different.

Now, how does this address the OP?

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I said in attitude

Hammster said:

No difference. Now what does this have to do with the OP?

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Do you hate the LDS faith. Do you feel that your faith is far more superior and true than mine. Do you spend time trying to reveal to others the false teachings that are in the LDS faith. Do you beleive that there are certain types of people that can be duped into the LDS faith. If so that would place those who have this attitude as a bigot

Hammster said:

This has nothing to do with the OP.

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Not really my point is your are saying the LDS church is racist and I'm saying you have no right to judge one way or the other

fatboys said:

Not really my point is your are saying the LDS church is racist and I'm saying you have no right to judge one way or the other

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That's an absolutely ridiculous statement, and still, after days of this, OFF TOPIC.

This is about Mormon racism, and this issue can most certainly be judged. One must not be sinless in order to make a judgement (discern). One must only be sinless in order to pass judgement (condemn).

This is the thread topic:
No Official Apology for Racism of the Past

• Have Mormons acknowledged the racism of it's leaders?
• Have the Mormons ever apologized for the sin of racism?

Hammster said:

I think there was some actual quotes from Smith and Young. Their writings are the foundation of your religion. Then some other leader just changed direction. I've actually been wanting to know on what basis you believe one over the other.

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There are no quotes from Joseph Smith but Brigham had some things about it. One thing he did say was that they were not banned from reaching the highest of eternal glories or kimgdoms

drstevej said:

Racism passed off as "limited understanding."

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To be totally fair, racism has always existed because of a "limited understanding" particularly a limited understanding that all men have descended from Adam (Rom 5:12), and that God sees all men as being of "one blood" (Acts 17:26). And we should also keep in mind that there is Yellow racism (ask the Chinese), and Black racism (ask the Black Lives Matter agitators), as well as white racism [not to mention the casteism in India (which is even worse)]. At the time of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young Mormonism was biased against blacks to the same degree as American society was biased against blacks and Native Americans (which was also reciprocated by the tribes).

In the context of this OP which is more important, an apology for racism (which offends sensibilities) or an apology for false doctrine (which impacts on the eternal destiny of souls)? I would sooner have repentance over false doctrine.

Job8 said:

To be totally fair, racism has always existed because of a "limited understanding" particularly a limited understanding that all men have descended from Adam (Rom 5:12), and that God sees all men as being of "one blood" (Acts 17:26). And we should also keep in mind that there is Yellow racism (ask the Chinese), and Black racism (ask the Black Lives Matter agitators), as well as white racism [not to mention the casteism in India (which is even worse)]. At the time of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young Mormonism was biased against blacks to the same degree as American society was biased against blacks and Native Americans (which was also reciprocated by the tribes).

In the context of this OP which is more important, an apology for racism (which offends sensibilities) or an apology for false doctrine (which impacts on the eternal destiny of souls)? I would sooner have repentance over false doctrine.

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I appreciate your thoughts here. Remember that Joseph Smith ordained blacks to the priesthood. The ban became a policy but not doctrine in Utah

drstevej said:

An apology for BOTH is appropriate.

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Joseph Smith ordained blacks to the priesthood. In fact if you want to be technical Brigham ordained blacks to the priesthood as did every other prophet from the time of Joseph Smith to today. But those from the blood line of Cain were banned from the priesthood by Brigham Young although he at first ordain a couple of them from that bloodline as well. But if you are expecting an a apology from them your going to have to wait until you die and are in the spirit world.

drstevej said:

How is this bloodline determined in the 1800's?

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Probably those of African descent

drstevej said:

The 2 Nephi 5:21 is the sticky part. It posits God as viewing white folk as delightsome and dark skin as a curse and unenticing to white delightsome folks.

To repent of racism would not just reflect upon Joseph, Brigham, et al. but also the "God" of the Book of Mormon.
So, the best one can do (short of this) is to claim new light and move on. Issue a Declaration (OD2) that gives the best spin.
3 Nephi 2:15
And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.

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And I was told that the Book of Mormon does not contradict the Holy Bible. Well here is a contradiction, too, the Bible reads:

Take me away with you—let us hurry!
Let the king bring me into his chambers.
Friends
We rejoice and delight in you;
we will praise your love more than wine.
She
How right they are to adore you!
5 Dark am I, yet lovely,
daughters of Jerusalem,
dark like the tents of Kedar,
like the tent curtains of Solomon.
6 Do not stare at me because I am dark,
because I am darkened by the sun.

drstevej said:

The Southern Baptists have apologized for past racism.

• Have Mormons acknowledged the racism of it's leaders?
• Have the Mormons ever apologized for the sin of racism?

Or has this been an issue of spin and avoidance of shouldering the blame? This thread focuses on debate of the issue of Mormon racism and the acknowledgement of the sin of racism.

To begin to illustrate the racism:

Joseph Smith: (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270; History of the Church, 5: 218).



Brigham Young: (Journal of Discourses, 10:110)




Apostle Bruce McConkie: Mormon Doctrine, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current ed.



2 Nephi 5:21, Book of Mormon

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I some times wonder if you read what we post or if you just keep making accusations one after another??? I answered the Joseph Smith quoted by giving the full quote in posting 66 of the thread about the Book of Mormon and the quote from the Book of Mormon in postings 44 &45 of the same thread.

The quote from McConkie was just flat out false doctrine; Here is a quote from Young

December 25, 1869: I attended the School of the Prophets. Many questions were asked. President Young answered them. Lorenzo Young asked if the spirits of Negroes were neutral in heaven. He said someone said Joseph Smith said they were. President Young said no they were not. There were no neutral spirits in heaven at the time of the rebellion. All took sides. He said if anyone said that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the spirits of the Blacks were neutral in heaven, he would not believe them, for he heard Joseph say to the contrary. All spirits are pure that come from the presence of God. The posterity of Cain are black because he commit[ted] murder. He killed Abel and God set a mark upon his posterity. But the spirits are pure that enter their tabernacles and there will be a chance for the redemption of all the children of Adam except the sons of perdition.

—Wilford Woodruff's Journal, entry dated Dec. 25, 1869

So here ya have a quote from Young who had some bigotry in him saying no! There is another quote from BY in which Brigham Young praised Q. Walker Lewis, a black man who had been ordained to the priesthood, saying, “We have one of the best Elders, an African. Yet it was he who instituted the ban in 1852 and no one knows why.

Joseph F. Smith also rejected this idea
...there is no revelation, ancient or modern, neither is there any authoritative statement by any of the authorities of the Church … [in support of the idea] that the negroes are those who were neutral in heaven at the time of the great conflict or war, which resulted in the casting out of Lucifer... (First Presidency letter from Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, and Charles W. Penrose, to M. Knudson, 13 Jan. 1912)

But George Albert Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce McMonkie and Mark E Peterson all accepted and taught the idea of some spirits being less valiant in heaven. Because the Bible teaches 1/3rd of the host of heaven rebelled, somehow they stuck that together with the blacks not having the priesthood and thought while they were not tossed out of heaven some were less valiant. However McMonkie and Peterson were sitting apostles when the ban against the Blacks holding the priesthood was lifted. Joseph Fielding Smith was more wishy washy on the subject, it's not a thus saith the Lord. He is more or less asking the question and acknowledge the scriptures do not teach it, and he apparently did not know that Joseph Smith had ordained several black men to the priesthood.

McMonkie acknowledged and retracted his earlier statements as being wrong;

"There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren that we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, 'You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?' All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

"It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June 1978. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the Gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the Gentiles."

And Steve you are wrong the Church has acknowledged and disavowed it's past racism;

"Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form...."
www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng#24

drstevej said:

2 Nephi 5:21 is a theory ???

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

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Read my postings 44 and 45 under the Book of Mormon Thread, it's one thing to repeat to the newbies but you are here all the time so I expect you to read my postings and then reply accordingly. I do understand you can't read everything I certainly can not, but it was a major posting answering your question and I spent a lot of time on it just for you.