Marvin and Isaiah
The Wind analogy you all mentioned.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
That does not say that the Spirit is like the wind, it says "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit". How can you twist something that is in simple English? And even if you applied the analogy to the Spirit, it simply means that you do not know where this birth comes from, it just is. You know you are born again by the change in your life, but you don't see the change, you don't see the Spirit, you only hear/feel it. That is what was being talked about, the change..the being born of the Spirit that Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus was not a physical birth that you could see, but you would see the effects of it. This message is talked about several times, John 10:38, Matthew 7:16 .
First of all - Thank you so much for taking the time to forward to me your questions and statements about my post.
FreeGrace2 said point blank that there is no “ability” involved in choosing the Lord. I was demonstrating throughout my post that there is indeed “ability” involved and that that ability has not been given to everyone. Some have the ability and some do not. That was the point I was making in my post.
Let me say also that there was at no time any twisting of simple English involved in my post. Also I would like to point out that your post lapses into question concerning election which is not per se the point of what we are talking about here. Of course it is certainly that concept as well as predestination is related in some ways to God’s giving of “abilities “to some and not others however.
Now to your statements here:
I am saying that being “born again” is like the “effects” of the wind. Jesus and I are saying that those effects are the result of the invisible wind’s actions. They are not the wind itself.
Rustling leaves, a cold chill on the face and what have you are not the wind itself. They are merely the effects of the wind’s invisible activities. Likewise - believing the Word of God, saying the sinner’s prayer, walking down an isle at a Billy Graham crusade and what have you are merely the effects of the invisible activities of the Holy Spirit. They are not themselves the Holy Spirit. They are like the cry of the new born baby. But they are not the actual start of the life of that baby. (That’s a bit more mysterious.)
We do not know where the impetuous to respond to the Word of God comes from, But it is not a “natural” impetuous. (It is doubly so that we do not know if we resist the doctrine about which we have been talking.) But, if you can receive it, the Holy Spirit has been working before the new birth to make it possible. After all the Spirit of Christ is “the author of your faith” showing that “by grace you have been saved”.
You are also conflating the results of regeneration with being born again- a common mistake. Being born again “by the living and abiding Word of God” is not the same as regeneration – just as being born physically is not the same as the giving of life that makes being born possible. In the example of physical life - in due time those generated by their natural father will appear and begin to show forth life. Likewise we are born into and function in the Kingdom of God by believing and applying the Word of God. But, just as with the natural example that Jesus used, that birth and participation in the Kingdom is not itself the act of regeneration.
Jesus gave us two overlapping examples so that we should not miss these simple truths. Some miss it anyway simply IMO because they chafe at the concept of election that is (as you were quick to point out) involved here.
Marvin you cited John 6:37 as a text that indicates people cannot resist? How do you get that from that verse? The verse says that God will give to Jesus, and that Jesus will not cast out. It does not say anything about resisting or being irresistable.
Certain people, who have been given to the Jesus by the Father “
will” come to Him. The scriptures clearly say that they are drawn to Jesus by the Father. The ability to come to Jesus is an “ability” that not all have been given. That is the subject addressed by the scriptures used in my post.. As FreeGrace2 and you both seem to know your way around the gospels – I assumed that you would connect the dots. No scripture is an island after all.
I find it interesting that you would cite Matthew 13:11 as reference to some having abilities given to them and others not. Because that whole section is explaining why Jesus speaks in Parables. And Jesus cites the Old Testament in verse 15 "... For the heart of the people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand wtih their heart and return, and I would heal them"
The verse does not say that God closed their eyes, or dulled their heart. It even states that it was the people that closed their eyes. And if they had not closed their eyes, then they would have seen, and heard, and understood...and if they understood they would have returned and God would heal them. That is not election, that is the will of man turning away from God, just as Adam did.
Luke 8:10 is condensed version of Matthew 13, so the same would hold true in the greater context of what was spoken of during that time.
Again – I’m assuming that people who have taken it upon themselves to discuss doctrine here would have a good overall knowledge of scripture so that they can connect the dots as it were.
The principle of God’s dealing with men as they deal with Him is set forth clearly throughout scripture. We have such things as Pharaoh hardening his heart and God also hardening his heart reciprocally. We have the principles set forth in Romans that say such things as “because” they acted in a depraved way He “gave them over” to even more depravity and “because” they did not believe such and such He let them believe a lie etc. etc.
These principles of the stewardship of man vs. the blessings of God play over into the N.T. as well. It applies very clearly to our good or bad stewardship of money being blessed or cursed with more or less money to work with in the future.
With regard to the idea of doctrine it also applies that God gives and withholds the ability to understand based on how we handle what He has given us to believe. If we will not receive knowledge then He will not give more knowledge and so on.
“So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him." Luke 8:18
“Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.” Matthew 13:12
“Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.” Matthew 25:29
“Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them." Mark . 4:25
"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away.” Luke 19:26
This idea of some being given the ability to receive based on the fact that they received what they were given before and others having that ability withheld because they did not receive is a basic principle of the Kingdom of God. I’m surprised you are unaware of it.
One must connect the dots scripture and concept to scripture and concept if one is to understand systematic theology.
Actually I believe that these Kingdom principles go a long way toward explaining why many here in the forum cannot receive certain doctrines. They refuse some doctrines because they are offended and as a result God withholds understanding and reception of other related doctrines until they bring themselves in alignment with certain basic teachings which they have here to fore rejected.
