Daniel 12:1

Numenorian

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salvation to me means that jesus fulfilled the law for any man who will enter into the faith covenant with him to obey his words ...he is our righteousness which is a gift

Amen! I just wanted to make a distinction about the Old Covenant, which Hebrews seems to show as pertaining to the Levitical priesthood, which is based on a physical lineage, versus the priesthood of Jesus, which is based on the power of an indestructible life. But it does not include the Abrahamic or Davidic covenants, which are EVERLASTING covenants. If words mean anything, that means they never pass away.
 
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dfw69

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Amen! I just wanted to make a distinction about the Old Covenant, which Hebrews seems to show as pertaining to the Levitical priesthood, which is based on a physical lineage, versus the priesthood of Jesus, which is based on the power of an indestructible life. But it does not include the Abrahamic or Davidic covenants, which are EVERLASTING covenants. If words mean anything, that means they never pass away.


Jesus is Abraham son it is Jesus that is the father of many nations not Isaac.....So.fulfilled and being fulfilled

Same of David's son who also is Jesus
 
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Numenorian

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Jesus is Abraham son it is Jesus that is the father of many nations not Isaac.....So.fulfilled and being fulfilled

Same of David's son who also is Jesus

“And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:3‬ ‭

“The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever. I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭13:14-16‬
 
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dfw69

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“And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:3‬ ‭

“The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever. I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭13:14-16‬

Yes these promises are found through Christ alone no one should think otherwise
 
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Numenorian

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"And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."” Genesis‬ ‭12:3‬ ‭

We assume that the blessing to the families of the earth is only through the only begotten Son, but it is also through the corporate son, when Israel knows the Lord.

“The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever. I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered.” Genesis‬ ‭13:14-16‬

Notice the physicality that God specified: every direction on the compass. Also, He says "to you and to your DESCENDANTS".

“Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. "I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying, "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."” Genesis‬ ‭17:1-8‬

Again God says "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you THROUGHOUT THEIR GENERATIONS for an everlasting covenant.

Once again, "DESCENDANTS" is mentioned.

“Now there was a famine in the land, besides the previous famine that had occurred in the days of Abraham. So Isaac went to Gerar, to Abimelech king of the Philistines. The LORD appeared to him and said, "Do not go down to Egypt; stay in the land of which I shall tell you. Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to you and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham. I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." Genesis‬ ‭26:1-5‬ ‭

Notice that God promises:
- to give the land to Abraham and his DESCENDANTS
- to multiply Abraham's DESCENDANTS
- to bless all nations through Abraham's DESCENDANTS

“May God Almighty bless you and make you fruitful and multiply you, that you may become a company of peoples. May He also give you the blessing of Abraham, to you and to your descendants with you, that you may possess the land of your sojournings, which God gave to Abraham."” Genesis‬ ‭28:3-4‬ ‭4

Notice that Isaac invoked the covenantal blessing on Jacob, that God would give him AND HIS DESCENDANTS WITH HIM possession of the land, not a spiritual land, but the actual land that Abraham saw with his own eyes. This was not speaking of a spiritual heir, but children actually with him.

How many more times does God have to say it? Yet, some will nullify or set aside repeated promises with one verse:

“Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16-18‬


The remaining part of the passage shows that Paul did not have in mind the alteration of sworn covenant promises from the past. On the contrary, he is bolstering the covenant promises of the past. Jesus came "to CONFIRM THE PROMISES GIVEN TO THE FATHERS" (Rom. 15:8), not "fulfill", not "replace".

The only reason we can have the audacity to trample on repeated covenantal promises is because we assume Old Testament revelation is trumped or reinterpreted by the New. But Paul did not teach that.
 
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BABerean2

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Numenorian said...
"The only reason we can have the audacity to trample on repeated covenantal promises is because we assume Old Testament revelation is trumped or reinterpreted by the New. But Paul did not teach that."


Paul is clearly teaching in Galatians chapter 3 that Christ and Christ alone is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Promise.
He says the same thing in Romans chapters 9 and 11 in explaining the differences between Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise.

Why are you attempting to infer Paul was wrong in Galatians 3:16?

When we come to a verse or passage that does not agree with what we want to believe, we are to change what we believe instead of attempting to say there is some wrong with the text.

I have had to change my views many times, due to this same thing.

I discovered that many times what was coming from the pulpit, did not match God's Word.
Even though I loved those men, I had no choice but to reject their words and accept the Bible instead.


.
 
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Numenorian

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Numenorian said...
"The only reason we can have the audacity to trample on repeated covenantal promises is because we assume Old Testament revelation is trumped or reinterpreted by the New. But Paul did not teach that."


Paul is clearly teaching in Galatians chapter 3 that Christ and Christ alone is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Promise.
He says the same thing in Romans chapters 9 and 11 in explaining the differences between Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise.

Why are you attempting to infer Paul was wrong in Galatians 3:16?

When we come to a verse or passage that does not agree with what we want to believe, we are to change what we believe instead of attempting to say there is some wrong with the text.

I have had to change my views many times, due to this same thing.

I discovered that many times what was coming from the pulpit, did not match God's Word.
Even though I loved those men, I had no choice but to reject their words and accept the Bible instead.


.
I am in no way suggesting Paul is wrong in what he says in Gal. 3:16. What I am insisting on is respecting the whole context of Scripture. We don't just overturn something that is repeated again and again to the fathers, that their DESCENDANTS would multiply and the possess the land. And we simply cannot evade the fact that the fathers were promised a REAL LAND, WITH PHYSICAL DIMENSIONS, PREVIOUSLY OCCUPIED BY REAL PEOPLE GROUPS. IT IS UNREASONABLE THAT THE FATHERS WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD GOD ANY OTHER WAY.

“On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite."‭‭. Genesis‬ ‭15:18-21‬ ‭

So, the land belongs to Israel by covenant. BUT.....the Law of Moses was ordained by God to be a flesh filter. It is absolutely impossible to perform in the flesh. Them Law was always what the prophets pointed back to in order to show the people they stood in covenant jeopardy, and exile was looming.

“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Have you ever wondered why, in response to Hananiah's false prophecy, Jeremiah said this?:

“Yet hear now this word which I am about to speak in your hearing and in the hearing of all the people! The prophets who were before me and before you from ancient times prophesied against many lands and against great kingdoms, of war and of calamity and of pestilence. The prophet who prophesies of peace, when the word of the prophet comes to pass, then that prophet will be known as one whom the LORD has truly sent."”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭28:7-9‬ ‭

Why did Jeremiah/the Lord throw the burden of proof on the prophet of peace? You would think this burden of veracity would fall on all prophetic expressions - we'll know they're true when they happen.

I offer this reason: the prophet of judgment - the biblical prophets - stood on the foundation of the Law of Moses, and at any time, in any generation, they could raise that plumb line to show that the people were in breach of the Mosaic covenant. As long as they were preaching from this foundation, no further proof was necessary. And of course, this is assured by the reality of human depravity.

Therefore, for an unrighteous people, there is a dilemma: how can they remain in the land when to remain, they are required to do justice and righteousness? It is patently impossible,and God has ordained it so...to crowd the nation to Christ.

So let's be agreed. BELIEF IN THE GOSPEL IS AN INDISPUTABLE NECESSITY FOR JEW AND GENTILE, BECAUSE THE GOSPEL ALONE PROVIDES US WITH THE EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS. RIGHTEOUSNESS IS OUR GREATEST NEED:

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-18‬ ‭

“What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:9-11‬ ‭

“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” Romans‬ ‭3:21-26‬ ‭

Why was Paul not ashamed of the gospel? Because it demonstrates the righteousness of God, in congruence with the Law and the prophets. We must not take Paul's gospel out of context, introducing discontinuity that he does not.

“Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy scriptures,"
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭

“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16:25-27‬ ‭

The apostolic preaching of the gospel was founded on the prophetic message, which was based on covenant and the Law of Moses:

“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭8:20‬ ‭

Any preaching of the gospel that is based on a foundation other than this apostolic and prophetic foundation is at best, suspended in mid-air, and at worst, false, as replacement teaching is.

So, returning to Gal. 3:16, I do not infer that Paul is wrong. I maintain it is being taken out of context, both the wider context I've given above, which I know is biblical, and the narrower context of Romans 9-11 and Galatians 3.

Previous to Gal. 3, in the first two chapters, Paul has taken pains to show that his apostolic ministry was based on Divine calling, and his gospel is authoritative, issuing from heaven, not from men.

In ch. 2, he begins to document his opposition to the "false brethren" who were distorting the gospel of Christ, and in ch. 3, addresses the believers who have been bewitched into believing this different gospel. The issue is how are we to go on living, having begun in the Spirit? The Galatians were being deceived into believing that they could be perfected by the flesh, circumcision being chief in the Judaistic instruction. Over against that, Paul asserts faith and walking by the Spirit as the only way to please God.

Notice that the Judaizers weren't the only ones using the Jewish scriptures; Paul too preached to these Gentile believers from them, but he appealed to older parts, to the Abrahamic covenant, which predates the Law. Paul says that, anticipating Gentile salvation, the gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham - "all the nations shall be blessed in you".

Over against this salvation by faith that Abraham experienced (receiving righteousness from God being the essential thing then and now), Paul expounds on the effect of being under the Law: curse. But over against the curse, Jesus hung on the cross to redeem us from that curse, that the blessing of Abraham - the promise of the Spirit by faith - might come to the Gentiles.

Right here, please observe the difference between what Paul says over against those who rush to say "We're all one in Christ now. There's neither Jew nor Greek." First of all, here and throughout the book of Romans, Paul continues to address two different communities within the Body (Rom. 2:17, 24, 3:1-9, 4:1-3, Rom. 7:1; ch. 9-11 [to Gentiles]).

Secondly, notice his tone: "that in Christ Jesus, the Gentiles MIGHT receive..." Sometimes, there is a grating tone in the quick summary "God's no respecter of persons. We're all one in Christ." The words are all true, but there's something wrong in the attitude, a certain lack of recognition of the privilege of being grafted in to the rich root of the olive tree. It is like the guys hired at the eleventh hour, who are paid exactly the same, having to broadcast in no uncertain terms that "we're all equal".

For lack of this recognition, much of the Gentile church has become arrogant. We don't recognize PRIVILEGE and seem to assume that Israel has been cut off due to some special obstinacy and unbelief that is somehow not common to man.

Looking at the immediate context of Gal. 3:16, we need to note a few things:

“Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:15-18‬ ‭

Previously I have argued that Paul always speaks from the context of the covenant, Law and the prophets, and in Galatians 3, he is NOT clearly teaching that Christ is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant because:

1. He is arguing that, if men don't set aside or add conditions to a covenant once it is ratified, HOW MUCH LESS DOES GOD! We should fear to teach such a thing.

2. Corporiety is a cardinal perspective of the Scriptures. We're one in Adam, believers are one in Christ, we're one with previous generations (Matt. 2:29-32, Heb. 7:9-10, Exodus 20:5), and Abraham's seed includes both Christ and his earthly descendants. If he understood one thing, he would have understood "seed" to mean his offspring. Paul knew all of this well.

When God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, it broke his head: how then can God's promises be fulfilled? Of course, Abraham understood God to mean his physical descendants!

“By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED."” Hebrews‬ ‭11:17-18‬ ‭

Therefore, we must dig deeper to find the meaning, since we cannot take one verse to nullify a vital teaching of Scripture.

With reference to Abraham's descendants, God first uses the word "seed" in Genesis. It is not a novel concept Paul is introducing in Galatians. On the other hand, when does He ever say "seeds" with respect to human beings and their descendants? Even with respect to vegetation, it is a rare usage.

“indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply YOUR SEED as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and YOUR SEED shall possess the gate of THEIR enemies.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:17‬ ‭

So Jesus is in the lineage of Abraham. Do we think that, because of this statement, Paul is teaching that God has erased all the genealogical lines between Abraham and Christ, and made them irrelevant?

[What I believe I am butting up against is a prevalent view of the biblical story which casts the main story of the Scripture in terms of these events - creation, fall, redemption, consummation. This schema of the foreground of the biblical narrative was fashioned by the Ante-Nicene fathers in answer to the pagans, the Gnostics, and the Jews. It was a mighty service to the early church, but has had some deleterious consequences.

In this manner, this prevalent way of seeing the biblical foreground story becomes backhandedly gnostic, not in terms of creation (the early fathers, particularly Irenaeus, dealt masterfully with that error), but in terms of history. Now that salvation in Christ has come, and Israel has served its purpose as the matrix for His birth, Israel in the flesh can just drop out of the picture. Their history now fades to the background; the figures and stories of the Old Testament become relics, like sepia-coloured pictures of great-grandparents on the mantle - nice to know about, but irrelevant for today.

Check any book of Christian theological foundations and see if the subject of Israel is given any authoritative weight in the discussion of any theological subject - hamartiology, soteriology, even eschatology. The revelation of God in and through the history of Israel, that is everything between the fall and redemption in the above schema, is reduced to mere background information. That's the whole Old Testament, save for the first few chapters of Genesis.

In terms of Galatians 3 (and Romans 9-11, which I have no time to get into today), this is the reason why I see people coming away from verse 16 asserting that there is no other seed but Jesus. They have rendered the Old Testament covenants, law, and prophets as mere supplementary background information, with nothing of authoritative value to say.

But Old Testament history is GOD'S HISTORY with Israel. How dare we!

“In all their affliction HE WAS AFFLICTED, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭63:9‬]

3. Past Gal. 3:16, Paul explains himself.
First of all, he is speaking about the corporate reality of "seed", which includes all the descendants, and that includes Christ. Jesus was Jewish! Do we want to try and expunge all of His lineage back to Abraham? David was in there, and Jesus called Himself the Son of David. Every time He did, He was referencing His lineage and covenantal connection.

To attempt to expunge Old Testament history leads to many problems, not least of which is to go in the gnostic direction, claiming all this history is sinful and irrelevant. (And some in the church still hold gnostic views about creation, that God is just going to wipe it out and start over). It leaves the proclamation of the gospel suspended in mid-air, and Christ is taken out of context.

4. Paul explains: the later revelation of the Law does not invalidate the Abrahamic promise of land and descendants. Why? Because God had PREVIOUSLY GIVEN HIS WORD.

But how could the Law potentially invalidate the promise? By finding fault with the people, as has been shown above. God needed to place His people on the foundation of the New Covenant, which is envisioned in the Abrahamic covenant. Abraham has not yet possessed one foot of that land, but was a stranger and sojourner in it, with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise (Heb. 11:9). But as "God is not a man, that He should lie", one day, he will.

So the land promise, the progeny promise, the promise of a king forever over David's realm will all be accomplished as per the covenant. Jesus will reign, and there will be no end to the increase of His government.

And our salvation is assured because God has not permitted the Law to invalidate the promises of inheritance, whether land on earth or the heavenly thing, because at the end of the day, He provides, not us, and takes nothing from man (Gen. 22:14).

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:7-12‬ ‭
 
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iamlamad

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Numenorian said...
"The only reason we can have the audacity to trample on repeated covenantal promises is because we assume Old Testament revelation is trumped or reinterpreted by the New. But Paul did not teach that."


Paul is clearly teaching in Galatians chapter 3 that Christ and Christ alone is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Promise.
He says the same thing in Romans chapters 9 and 11 in explaining the differences between Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise.

Why are you attempting to infer Paul was wrong in Galatians 3:16?

When we come to a verse or passage that does not agree with what we want to believe, we are to change what we believe instead of attempting to say there is some wrong with the text.

I have had to change my views many times, due to this same thing.

I discovered that many times what was coming from the pulpit, did not match God's Word.
Even though I loved those men, I had no choice but to reject their words and accept the Bible instead.


.
When we come to a verse or passage that does not agree with what we want to believe, we are to change what we believe instead of attempting to say there is some wrong with the text.

You mean a passage like: "...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection..."
 
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BABerean2

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So the land promise, the progeny promise, the promise of a king forever over David's realm will all be accomplished as per the covenant. Jesus will reign, and there will be no end to the increase of His government.

Regarding the land promise...


Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.


Regarding the Sinai covenant promise... It was an If-Then promise.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
They broke the Sinai covenant.


Regarding all of the other promises that were made by God, refer to the following verses...


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

He did not say... It is almost finished...

He did not say... It is finished except for...

Jesus explained in John chapter 8 the truth about Abraham's physical seed, who reject Him as the Son of God.


Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Being Abraham's physical seed does not bring the promises. They only come through faith in Christ.
Galatians 3:16, 29

Those who claim God has not fulfilled all of the promises need only remember that God sent His Son, His Only Son to live a perfect sinless life and die on a Cross for our sins.

What more should He be expected to do??? Was it not enough???

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Numenorian

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When we come to a verse or passage that does not agree with what we want to believe, we are to change what we believe instead of attempting to say there is some wrong with the text.

You mean a passage like: "...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection..."
When we come to a verse or passage that does not agree with what we want to believe, we are to change what we believe instead of attempting to say there is some wrong with the text.

You mean a passage like: "...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection..."

I do not say there is anything wrong with the text. I only insist that a verse be taken in context, and the wider the context you take, the safer your interpretation is likely to be. Paul always wrote in the context of covenant and prophecy. Do you seek out what the prophets say? Paul said that by the Scriptures of the prophets, the gospel has been made known to all nations. Look hard at that! Things aren't so church-centric as many think.

“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16:25-27‬
 
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Numenorian

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When we come to a verse or passage that does not agree with what we want to believe, we are to change what we believe instead of attempting to say there is some wrong with the text.

You mean a passage like: "...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection..."
When we come to a verse or passage that does not agree with what we want to believe, we are to change what we believe instead of attempting to say there is some wrong with the text.

You mean a passage like: "...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection..."

I do not say there is anything wrong with the text. I only insist that a verse be taken in context, and the wider the context you take, the safer your interpretation is likely to be. Paul always wrote in the context of covenant and prophecy. Do you seek out what the prophets say? Paul said that by the Scriptures of the prophets, the gospel has been made known to all nations. Look hard at that! Things aren't so church-centric as many think.

“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16:25-27‬
Regarding the land promise...


Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Are you suggesting that the promises of God were fulfilled in Joshua's time and therefore aren't in force anymore?

Regarding the Sinai covenant promise... It was an If-Then
promise.

I agree. If you obey, you will be blessed. If you disobey, you will be cursed.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
They broke the Sinai covenant.

But because men failed to keep their part, that doesn't mean that the consequences of the Law are not in force, right?


Regarding all of the other promises that were made by God, refer to the following verses...


Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

He did not say... It is almost finished...

He did not say... It is finished except for...

I must disagree here. What was finished here? The great work of atonement, which opens to us the possibility forgiveness of sins and restoration of relationship with God. Monumental it is! But it didn't finish everything.

The Day of the Lord is the interpretive key of all prophecy; everything tends toward it. It seems you may have adopted something of the Amil position, which drains the significance of the second advent into the first. Everything, or almost everything, has been done already. I just don't believe that is true to the Scriptures.


The eschatology of the covenant as mediated by the prophets show 4 things that will happen at the DOL:

1. The Spirit will be poured out on Israel, as she is born in a day. She will know the Lord from that day forward.

Moses said, “Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.” ‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:4‬ ‭ But this changed forever st the DOL.

2. The everlasting righteousness will be brought in for Israel. I don't mean that the work is finished, and therefore, there's nothing left to be done. I mean the house of Israel, all of them, will actually possess it. So it's about actuality, not potentiality.

3. The last Gentile aggressor is defeated.

4. Israel lies down in permanent peace and safety.

These things are promised in the covenant and predicted in the prophets. And they are future.


Jesus explained in John chapter 8 the truth about Abraham's physical seed, who reject Him as the Son of God.

I've already said that coming to Christ is imperative. But at the same time, the Scriptures do not teach that Jewish flesh is irrelevant.


Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Being Abraham's physical seed does not bring the promises. They only come through faith in Christ.
Galatians 3:16, 29


Being Abraham's seed does not BRING any promises. But....God selected them, and gave the promises, gratuitously, for no reason IN THEM. It is purely the grace of God. Election is the essence of grace, and grace permits God to be God.

Those who claim God has not fulfilled all of the promises need only remember that God sent His Son, His Only Son to live a perfect sinless life and die on a Cross for our sins.

As I've said before, as long as we differ about the New Testament revelation being more authoritative than the Old, then there will be a tendency to overstate what happened at the first advent, thus draining away the significance of the second advent, and covenantal things like land and descendants must be spiritualized to fit the narrative that Jesus is the centre and everything is fulfilled in Him. I mean, who can differ with Jesus being the centre?

What more should He be expected to do??? Was it not enough???

His work of atonement is a completely finished work. It is what the Father sent Him to do. But to assert that He is going to do more at His second coming takes nothing away from what He has done already.

But make no mistake. Spiritualizing away clear covenantal promises to the natural branches is one of the hallmarks of replacement theology.


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BABerean2

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Numenorian said...
"But make no mistake. Spiritualizing away clear covenantal promises to the natural branches is one of the hallmarks of replacement theology."



You are tending toward the doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology, based on what you have said so far.

It attempts to rebuild the middle wall of separation that was broken down at the Cross and tries to sew back together the veil that was torn in half, at the moment Jesus died on the Cross.

Classic Dispensational Theology, found in the Scofield Reference Bible, claims there are two peoples of God and two purposes of God.
They claim the Jews are God's eternal earthly people and the Church is God's eternal heavenly people.
They even attempt to claim the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are different in order to promote the idea above.
They also claim God and or Christ have not fulfilled all of the Promises to the descendants of Jacob.
Most of them change the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26 in an attempt to push the covenant in the next verse into a future time during a "national salvation" for the modern nation of Israel.
They also claim there is more than one Gospel.


Dallas Theological Seminary was established in 1924, and taught the new doctrine to future pastors. Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.


“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”


Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”



Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…



"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


It is the Dispensationalists who claim the Church is not the main plan of God.
They claim the Church is just a "parenthesis" in God's dealing with Israel.
They are the ones who are attempting to replace the Church with Israel during the last 7 years before the return of Christ.

They also claim it is the Jews who will convert the world during this time with their 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams.
Therefore, they are claiming it is Israel who will accomplish something the Church could not do.
Again, they are replacing the Church with Israel.

They even claim God will replace the New Covenant of Christ, by going back to the Old Sinai Covenant during this last 7 years.

Therefore, it is modern Dispensational Theology which is teaching Replacement Theology, by having God revert to the Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the return of Christ.

However, the truth is that the Church of Jesus Christ was in God's Plan before the foundation of the world.

God promised the snake in Genesis 3:15 that Jesus Christ would crush his head.

Jeremiah predicted the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

The whole Bible is a book about Jesus Christ. He wrote it. John 1:1

Dispensationalism started with the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" written by a Jesuit priest named Manuel Lacunza. He wrote the book under the assumed name of "Ben Ezra a converted Jew", which was a deception to start with.
The book was translated to English by Edward Irving and presented to the Albury and Powerscourt Prophetic Conferences, which met from about 1826 until about 1833. John Nelson Darby picked up the Irvingite doctrine and attempted to divide scripture to make it work.
And as they say the rest is history.

Some of us are here defending to the death, a doctrine which started in a Jesuit book...

The truth is found in the paper below, written by a Brethren Historian in 1966.



PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS


with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.

F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26

http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

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Numenorian

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Numenorian said...
"But make no mistake. Spiritualizing away clear covenantal promises to the natural branches is one of the hallmarks of replacement theology."



You are tending toward the doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology, based on what you have said so far.

No I am not a proponent of dispensationalism and here's how I differ:

Principally, I do not hold to two peoples of God. And I don't agree with dual covenant theology. Aside from other points of disagreement, I agree that there is one people of God, bought by the blood of the Lamb. But....the Gentiles have been grafted in to an olive tree that is not theirs; the cultivated olive tree that the Lord has been tending is older than the New Testament church, which is likened to a mere branch, and a grafted scion at that.

SOME of the branches were broken off, "some" not being a reference to individual Jews, but the whole nation since the rejection of Christ (a rejection which has been characteristic of the nation towards God from the time He called them out of Egypt - I can give you the Scriptures). The natural branches that remain are the faithful of Israel, that remnant from all ages, WHO ARE PART OF THE CHURCH. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the apostles. He is not the God of the dead but of the living. These living branches remain. This olive tree is not some kind of New Testament/Christian church analogy that Paul cooked up. It is a trans-generational phenomenon including the believers of all ages.

Your version of the Bible uses "so", mine uses "thus". But carry on....

“and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:26-29‬ ‭

If you spiritualize "Israel" in this verse (Israel NEVER means "the church" in Scripture - the Israel of God are specifically Jewish believers), you thereby NULLIFY THE NATIONAL PROMISE prophesied by Jeremiah (Jer. 31:31-34) and reiterated by most of the prophets, and arrogate it to the church. You leave the bulk of Israel condemned in their sin (sure, individuals are being saved, but it's a drop in the bucket relative to the national population), having commandeered their greatest promise of national restoration.

Nonetheless. God says "ALL Israel" shall be saved, "from the least to the greatest". Paul and Jeremiah are on exactly the same page.


Back to dispensationalism, I definitely do not believe in a rapture at any point before the last trumpet, when Jesus descends. Any previous rapture (before the 7-year final week, in the middle of the week, before the wrath is poured out, or 1/2 hour before) will constitute an abortion of the purpose of God for the church in relation to Israel. On the other hand, to the dispensationalists, Jacob's trouble is Jacob's problem, because the church will be outta here!

It attempts to rebuild the middle wall of separation that was broken down at the Cross and tries to sew back together the veil that was torn in half, at the moment Jesus died on the Cross.

There is no separation between Jews and Gentiles, or between slave and free, or male and female, in Christ....as individuals. But if you have no regard for the doctrine of corporiety, which I have outlined previously, you will not accept that God deals with nations as nations. The Old Testament is full of examples. In the New Testament, the gathering of the sheep and the goats in the much abused passage in Matt.25, is a judgment of nations.

On the national level, Israel is still separated from the nations by reason of the covenants. The Law of Moses separated Israel from the nations, and still does, which is why she will undergo the severest discipline in the coming time. Israel has a covenantal destiny that no other nation has, that is given of God although it will not be realized as natural men, but only in Christ. The point is that they have this special calling to be the lead nation, not because they're better, but simply because God chose it to be that way.

"Aye, there's the rub!" said Hamlet. It's all about the choice of God. Everywhere that God exercises His sovereign choice, the principalities and powers are all over it like a dirty shirt. As rebels always do, they oppose the decisions of Authority with everything in them. Hence, the frothing and foaming of the nations over Israel, the protests, boycotts, divestments, and sanctions instigated by misguided do-gooders on their false justice crusades, and the increasingly deceived "church" that is jumping on their bandwagon.

Over against all that sound and fury are the words of God who does not lie:

“For the LORD has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His habitation. "This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭132:13-14‬ ‭


The choices of God are what offend the egalitarian sensibilities of humanistic man. Jacob's sons hated Joseph because He was Jacob's favourite. Notice, though, the point at which Joseph finally broke and revealed himself to his brothers: when Judah was appealing with him to let Benjamin go, for fear of what would happen to Jacob if they returned without him. Joseph knew that what the brothers did to him was ultimately against Jacob.


“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭NASB‬‬


Israel is God's corporate son.

“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I said to you, 'Let My son go that he may serve Me'; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn."'"” ‭‭Exodus‬ ‭4:22-23‬ ‭


This is about the love of the Father. We all have been taught about the unfathomable cost to God of giving up His only begotten Son. But how many have considered the cost to God of giving up His only corporate son?
(Hos. 5:15)

“How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I surrender you, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart is turned over within Me, All My compassions are kindled. I will not execute My fierce anger; I will not destroy Ephraim again. For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, And I will not come in wrath.”
‭‭Hosea‬ ‭11:8-9‬ ‭


In the church teaching replacement theology, this pain is not even on their screen.


Classic Dispensational Theology, found in the Scofield Reference Bible, claims there are two peoples of God and two purposes of God.
They claim the Jews are God's eternal earthly people and the Church is God's eternal heavenly people.


I don't hold to two people. As for purpose, Israel's purpose in this age is to demonstrate to all the earth what MAN is.

They also claim God and or Christ have not fulfilled all of the Promises to the descendants of Jacob.
Most of them change the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26 in an attempt to push the covenant in the next verse into a future time during a "national salvation" for the modern nation of Israel.


I commonly use "so" to mean "therefore" or "thus" (as the NASB translates it), and I believe that is how Paul uses it in Romans 11. I have mentioned this before - you can't take that phrase with "so" out of context....all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come out of ZION (not the church), He will remove ungodliness from Jacob (not the world). The scope of these verses is not universal; they are God's salvific promises to the nation, which is Paul's main point: God's not done with the natural branches, who were broken off so we might be grafted in.

Where's the gratitude for that Divine switcheroo? Or do we think that's nothing to be grateful for or be humbled by, that not just the Messiah was given up for us, but also His people?


I had hoped you would recognize that I am not resting my view on one or two verses, but on the whole of the Bible. I've said already in various communications that there are outstanding prophesied and covenanted promises to Israel that have not yet been realized, notwithstanding the work of Christ at the first advent:

1) Is All Israel saved, filled with the Spirit, possessed of the everlasting righteousness (Dan. 9:24), and knowing the Lord? The answer is no...unless you assume the prophesied, covenanted HOPE AND RESURRECTION OF ISRAEL, on account of which Paul was on trial, has been given solely to INDIVIDUALS, who now comprise the Church.

2) Has the last Gentile oppressor been vanquished? Unless you're a committed full preterist, the answer is no, because the Antichrist has not yet arisen.

3) Are they lying down in peace, with no one making them afraid? If anyone reads the newspapers, it's no again.



They also claim there is more than one Gospel.

I would never claim that, but I do insist that in the context of the whole of the scriptures, the gospel is much broader than "confess your sins, repent, exercise faith in the finished work of Christ, and you will be forgiven, receive the Holy Spirit and become a child of God."What about the great purposes of God that He has had for all of creation, that have been in abeyance because of our sin? He "will appear a second time FOR SALVATION WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SIN."
(Heb. 9:28)


It is the Dispensationalists who claim the Church is not the main plan of God.
They claim the Church is just a "parenthesis" in God's dealing with Israel.
They are the ones who are attempting to replace the Church with Israel during the last 7 years before the return of Christ.

They also claim it is the Jews who will convert the world during this time with their 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams.
Therefore, they are claiming it is Israel who will accomplish something the Church could not do.
Again, they are replacing the Church with Israel.

They even claim God will replace the New Covenant of Christ, by going back to the Old Sinai Covenant during this last 7 years.

Therefore, it is modern Dispensational Theology which is teaching Replacement Theology, by having God revert to the Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the return of Christ.

However, the truth is that the Church of Jesus Christ was in God's Plan before the foundation of the world.

See what I said about the olive tree above. The original and remaining natural branches in the olive tree that were not cut off are Christians from all ages, but also the people of Hebrews 11, the faithful ones whose lives ar recorded in the OT.

There is such a disregard for those who "kept the faith" before New Testament times, such glib applications of Scripture made! "He who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John!" I want to say to people who ipso facto assume the superiority of the church, "Dig deeper for the meaning of that one! When was the last time you spoke truth to power, knowing it could cost you your head,
like John? When was the last time you held your tongue and didn't complain against God when in great, inexplicable pain and loss, like Job? When were you under the gun, like Daniel, with the captain of the king's bodyguard there to execute the command on him, and replied with discretion, rather than in a rant, saving his life and the life of all the wise men in Babylon? When was the last time you went after a giant situation out of zeal for the One who had succoured you for years in lonely places keeping sheep, whose name was being blasphemed and no one else did anything? When was the last time someone dear to you died and you didn't weep because God forbade it, and you, like Ezekiel "did as I was commanded"? I could go on and on...

As one man said in a message I heard, "we don't know to what extent we're dead and carried out (he was preaching about Ananias and Sapphira) because of our arrogance toward the branches, cut off and we don't even know it." And Paul was referring to the broken off ones! How much more inappropriate toward the ones that remain, who are in heaven with the Lord, having finished their race with honour!


What life has come to us throughout that olive tree, and yet, we have the chutzpah to now say they have to join US. It's the arrogance of not properly recognizing your roots. It IS true that Israel must be born again,which will bring her into Christ and into the church. But the church is also in Israel because Jesus was Jewish (it seems that some Christians find that awkward). Here's a sobering thought flowing from the following verse:

“For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:7‬ ‭

You have said that God does not respect bloodlines anymore. Be careful. Jesus has a bloodline, and it is Jewish. To not acknowledge Jesus as having a bloodline is the same as denying that He has come in the flesh.

Every major manifestation of the spirit of antichrist in history has had an antisemitic thrust, and there are people in the church today who, in the future, could find themselves among the persecutORS rather than the persecuted unless they boycott and divest themselves of the replacement theology they have sanctioned, whether consciously or unwittingly.


God promised the snake in Genesis 3:15 that Jesus Christ would crush his head.

Jeremiah predicted the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

I've touched on these two things before. Yes, Jesus crushes his head, but not until the mystery of lawlessness is revealed and the beast runs roughshod for three and a half years. Jesus' victory is going to be REAL, the open vindication of God in history, on this planet, not in a spiritual la-la land. We sing songs with phraseology like "kings and kingdoms bow down" and I' m thinking "Oh yeah? Where?"

The serpent's head must be crushed in each of us, the pride, the self-sufficiency, the humanism that is inimical to God. Israel leads in these things BECAUSE the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, and she is to be the leader of the nations. Like the world, she doesn't believe in a sin nature, so she must be instructed by hard experience.

The "woman fled into the wilderness" from the presence of the serpent", she who had given birth to the son who is to rule all nations. I believe this woman is going to be comprised of the fleeing, persecuted Jews and they will find a "place prepared by God ", believers who have been anticipating her, and prepared a table David's people in the presence of her enemies. Of course, this implies that Christians will be in the line of fire.

This is no game we're playing. I'm not interested in arguing theology for its own sake. Jacob's trouble is coming, the transition time and birthing canal for the house of Israel, through which she will be brought to this place:


“Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:11-14‬ ‭

We are called to midwife this process. You are in touch with Jews in your church? Then be kind and tell them this, that they might flee for refuge in the gospel of their salvation, so their hearts won't be fainting from fear in those days:

“The days of punishment have come,
The days of retribution have come;
Let Israel know this!
‭‭Hosea‬ ‭9:7

It is so cruel to speak words of comfort out of season, as I hear some saying,

“"Comfort, O comfort My people," says your God. "Speak kindly to Jerusalem; And call out to her, that her warfare has ended, That her iniquity has been removed, That she has received of the LORD ' S hand Double for all her sins."”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40:1-2‬ ‭


All of this started with the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" written by a Jesuit priest named Manuel Lacunza. He wrote the book under the assumed name of "Ben Ezra and converted Jew", which was a deception to start with.
The book was translated to English by Edward Irving and presented to the Albury and Powerscourt Prophetic Conferences, which met from about 1826 until about 1831 or so. John Nelson Darby picked up the Irvingite doctrine and attempted to divide scripture to make it work.
And as they say the rest is history.

Some of us are here defending to the death, a doctrine which started in a Jesuit book...

The truth is found in the paper below, written by a Brethren Historian in 1966.



PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS


with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.

F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26

http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

.
 
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BABerean2

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Numenorian said...

“and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:26-29‬ ‭

If you spiritualize "Israel" in this verse (Israel NEVER means "the church" in Scripture - the Israel of God are specifically Jewish believers), you thereby NULLIFY THE NATIONAL PROMISE prophesied by Jeremiah (Jer. 31:31-34) and reiterated by most of the prophets, and arrogate it to the church. You leave the bulk of Israel condemned in their sin (sure, individuals are being saved, but it's a drop in the bucket relative to the national population), having commandeered their greatest promise of national restoration.

Nonetheless. God says "ALL Israel" shall be saved, "from the least to the greatest". Paul and Jeremiah are on exactly the same page."

The promised New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


It is not waiting on a future "national fulfillment". It is available to all now, both Jew and Gentile.
It is the same covenant found in Romans 11.


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
(Paul just put both those of the circumcision and those of the uncircumcision together as the Israel of God.)


Paul starts Romans chapter 11 by declaring that he is an Israelite that has not been cast away, because of his faith in Christ.

A few verses later he compared the Israelites who bowed the knee to Baal to the 7,000 Israelites who did not bow to Baal.

The nation of Israel today is made up of the descendants of Jacob, who are Orthodox believers as well as atheists and agnostics. The nation also contains Christians, both Jews and Gentiles. It is also made of Arabs who are mainly Moslem, but also Christian.

The idea of "national salvation" is not found in the New Testament.
Paul plainly said that a remnant would believe.

I am not leaving them condemned in their sin. It is their choice.



Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The only way you can get your version to work, is by ignoring the two verses above.


All of Israel that is Israel, will be saved.
.
 
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ebedmelech

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You aren't conveying why any of this is important in this discussion. Please cite the verses and show why they are important.
Do I really need to do that? Doesn't Daniel 12:1 forecast the tribulation the Jews would endure which correlates to the Olivet Discourse as well as Revelation?

Jesus was not saying they would live to see the tribulation and his second coming because they didn't. Whatever they experienced is either a shadow of what's coming or just normal tribulation a Christian faces in hostile environments.

Here is the main problem with preterism:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

None of the above took place yet the generation he was describing would see the trib and the second coming and the rapture. Guess what else happens with those events? The resurrection of all the dead in Christ which plainly is not a historical event in Ad 70 or any year.
What you have posted above is the siege of Jerusalem, and you wish to ignore it. Obviously you have not read Josephus and Tacitus as they describe 70 AD.

Also, it's interesting that you don't include Matthew 24:9-14 as Jesus prepares Peter, James, John and Andrew (as Mark 13 tells us), for what they would endure.

9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Who do you think the personal pronoun "you" means in the Olivet Discourse?
I know. The point is there are different ways to reign and the only one that occurs during the Millennium is not a spiritual reign from heaven. It will be an Earthly reign with bodily resurrected saints and they will reign over the nations which are human beings that aren't eligible to be changed into immortal bodies like the living saints were at the return of Christ.
Is this why Peter says on Pentecost that God made Jesus BOTH LORD AND CHRIST? You simply can't get around the many times the apostles record in the New Testament that Jesus is LORD RIGHT NOW. He reigns right now...and Jesus NEVER referred to a literal thousand year reign.

You follow a erroneous eschatology...that's all there is to it. Jesus said it pretty clearly many times...take John3:35:
"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.

You fail to realize Matthew 24 refers to Jerusalem's destruction, while Matthew 25 refers to the time after that. We live in the time of Matthew 25. Jesus starts Matthew 25 with two parables...in on the bridegroom (Christ) is delaying, in the other there's a man on a journey (Christ). These example speak to Christ reigning from heaven and the right hand of the Father...something you'll find out should Christ return in your lifetime!
 
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Do I really need to do that? Doesn't Daniel 12:1 forecast the tribulation the Jews would endure which correlates to the Olivet Discourse as well as Revelation?

It is not a tribulation of the Jews but the whole world.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And the targets of Satan's wrath are Christians specifically not Jews.



What you have posted above is the siege of Jerusalem, and you wish to ignore it.

Again, Preterists always avoid the issue that disproves their doctrine: Part of the events that MUST HAPPEN and be experienced by the generation that would "see all these things" is the second coming where Christ sends forth angels to gather the elect. That didn't happen so you are confusing one siege of Jerusalem with the one during the tribulation which is yet future as is all of the Olivet discourse.


Obviously you have not read Josephus and Tacitus as they describe 70 AD.

Obviously you are unaware I have them their accounts and they are irrelevant to the discussion because no second coming occurred.


Also, it's interesting that you don't include Matthew 24:9-14 as Jesus prepares Peter, James, John and Andrew (as Mark 13 tells us), for what they would endure.

9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Who do you think the personal pronoun "you" means in the Olivet Discourse?

The intended person not always the one standing there. He was not saying Peter, James, John and Andrew would experience the events that just preceded the second coming, again because they did not see the second coming.




Is this why Peter says on Pentecost that God made Jesus BOTH LORD AND CHRIST? You simply can't get around the many times the apostles record in the New Testament that Jesus is LORD RIGHT NOW.

I already accept that. It is you that misunderstand what I believe in obviously. He is not reigning over the nations with his bodily resurrected formerly beheaded saints right now. That is a specific limited reign with a certain purpose. That isn't happening now nor can it until Christ returns.

and Jesus NEVER referred to a literal thousand year reign.

Argument from silence fallacies are not valid points. Besides, Christ did speak about it in Rev.



You follow a erroneous eschatology...that's all there is to it.

That's incorrect and baseless.


Jesus said it pretty clearly many times...take John3:35:
"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.


Irrelevant as this is not disputed by anyone. This is known as a scarecrow fallacy.


You fail to realize Matthew 24 refers to Jerusalem's destruction, while Matthew 25 refers to the time after that.

Wrong again. Matthew 24 up to verse 24 is the trib and destruction etc, but starting in Matthew 24:25 into chap 25 the subject is about the return of Christ. It's all the Olivet discourse and all of it was to be seen by a single generation. The AD 70 generation does not qualify because they did not see the return of Christ, the second coming.


We live in the time of Matthew 25.

Nope. No second coming happened. Are you a full Preterist??
 
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Matthew 24 up to verse 24 is the trib and destruction etc, but starting in Matthew 24:25 into chap 25 the subject is about the return of Christ.

The following is a handout I did for a small group Bible study that shows the disciples asked two questions in the Olivet Discourse and Jesus answered both of their questions...


In Matthew chapter 24, Christ gives an explanation to four of His disciples.

Mat 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1st Question: ________________________________________________

Christ has just told them the temple would be destroyed in the previous verse.



2nd Question: _______________________________________________

The Greek word “parousia” is used throughout the New Testament to describe His Second Coming.

………………………………...

Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?

………………………………...

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:(Simon Magus was a deceiver. Confirmed by Jerome.)

………………………

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for allthese thingsmust come to pass, but the end is not yet.

During 66 AD the Roman 12th Legion under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city of Jerusalem. For some unknown reason, he ordered his army to stop the seige. During the retreat the Romans were attacked by the Jews, who killed thousands of the Roman soldiers. (Josephus, War 2.19.7, 540) (Tacitus, The Histories V)

………………………

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

There was a devastating earthquake around 60-62 AD that destroyed much of Colossae, Laodicea, and Hierapolis. This was recorded by Tacitus in his writings as being during the 7th year of Nero.

………………………..

Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.

This is described specifically in Mark’s Gospel.

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19
And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

……………………….

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Col_4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2Ti_4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn_4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

……………………….



Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Was the Gospel preached into every nation in the modern world? No.

However, according to Paul it was preached into every nation of his known world.

Col 1:5
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, andwhich was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;



Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the worldshould be taxed.

Does this include Alaska and South America ???

………………………..

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

We know sometime before the final siege of 70 AD the early Christians left the city of Jerusalem. Did they heed the warning in Matthew 24?

A parallel study of the three Gospel accounts reveals the Abomination of Desolation.

During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka
.



Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. We know Luke 21:20 is related to Matthew 24:15, because the same warning to flee is found in the next verse.

In 66 AD the Romans under Cestius Gallus surrounded the city of Jerusalem, but then left for some unknown reason.

We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege of 70 AD.

While He was being taken to the Cross, Jesus warned the women who were weeping for him about what was to come. During this warning He makes a reference similar to that found in Matthew 24:19, about nursing mothers. This warning is also specifically made to these women and their children.

During the siege of 70 AD some women ate their own children, due to the lack of food during the siege.

Luk 23:28
But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Almost all scholars agree that the following verse is a specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Therefore, this also provides evidence that the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse, was part of the events of 70 AD.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


We also find a reference in Luke chapter 19 to the city being surrounded (compassed).

Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

(The Jewish leadership should have known the time of His visitation, because it was foretold by the angel Gabriel in the Book of Daniel. There was no excuse for them not knowing He was the Messiah. We also find a reference here to the temple being destroyed. This passage clearly connects the events of 70 AD to Jerusalem being surrounded. In the KJV the word "compass" is used in both passages.)



::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

What do we find in the last half of Matthew chapter 24?


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (In the NT the “elect” are Christians.)

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Beware of any man who says otherwise.)

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

What happened to “they” in verse 24:38? ____________________

Based on the last question, what happens to “them” in verse 24:39?


Based on the last two questions, what happens to those “taken”? _______

Mat 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.



Luk 17:35There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."

Luk 17:37 And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather."

Where are vultures found? _______________________

Compare this passage to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13

Who are “taken” first in the parable of the wheat and tares? ___________

Who are “left behind” in the parable of the wheat and tares? ___________

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The disciples asked two questions and Jesus answered both questions in the Olivet Discourse.
 
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It is not a tribulation of the Jews but the whole world.
Read Daniel 12:1 again:
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Who are Daniel's people ewq1938?
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And the targets of Satan's wrath are Christians specifically not Jews.
Look at that text again and answer who Jesus was talking to. Answer who, what, when, and where please.


Again, Preterists always avoid the issue that disproves their doctrine: Part of the events that MUST HAPPEN and be experienced by the generation that would "see all these things" is the second coming where Christ sends forth angels to gather the elect. That didn't happen so you are confusing one siege of Jerusalem with the one during the tribulation which is yet future as is all of the Olivet discourse.
You can try to make this a "preterist thing" all you want. For me, it is a "truth of scripture" thing...so what matters to me, is...is it true?
Obviously you are unaware I have them their accounts and they are irrelevant to the discussion because no second coming occurred.
So Christ didn't come in judgement of Jerusalem?

The intended person not always the one standing there. He was not saying Peter, James, John and Andrew would experience the events that just preceded the second coming, again because they did not see the second coming.
Can you prove that from scripture? Can you prove Jesus is telling them something they would never see happen?

*Peter was crucified upside down (as history records). Peter also said his death was at hand in 1 Peter 1:14

*James was put to death in Acts 12:2

*Andrew was killed in 70 AD (according to most accounts), Foxe's Book of Martyrs

*John (once again), tells you he was in the tribulation in Revelation 1:9

I already accept that. It is you that misunderstand what I believe in obviously. He is not reigning over the nations with his bodily resurrected formerly beheaded saints right now. That is a specific limited reign with a certain purpose. That isn't happening now nor can it until Christ returns.
Really?

*What does Jesus mean when he tells Pilate "my kingdom IS NOT of this world"?

*What does Jesus mean in Matthew 26:64? Why did Caiaphas tear his clothes when Jesus told him that?

*What does Paul mean in Colossians 1:15-20?

*Why does Hebrews 1 prove you are wrong by telling you Christ position "when He made purification from sin" on the cross? (Hebrews 1:1-4)

Argument from silence fallacies are not valid points. Besides, Christ did speak about it in Rev.
Jesus told you in Matthew 28:18 what His position is NOW...it's not an "argument from silence" it's an argument from factual evidence of scripture!

That's incorrect and baseless.
I expect you to say that...but even so, time will tell.

Irrelevant as this is not disputed by anyone. This is known as a scarecrow fallacy.
Actually no...what it is...is you dismissing facts of scripture. Nothing "scarecrow" about it.

Wrong again. Matthew 24 up to verse 24 is the trib and destruction etc, but starting in Matthew 24:25 into chap 25 the subject is about the return of Christ. It's all the Olivet discourse and all of it was to be seen by a single generation. The AD 70 generation does not qualify because they did not see the return of Christ, the second coming.
Once again you don't take into account what Peter, James, Andrew, and John asked.

Nope. No second coming happened. Are you a full Preterist??
I am amillennial. I look for Jesus to return just as Matthew 25 states. I don't look to be raptured before an imaginary "great tribulation". It's you who are ignorant of what Jesus meant when He said "you shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky in power and great glory".
 
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