Why did God ceate such a cruel world?

paul1149

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We are held hostage to the sin of Adam, because when God created it was according to a moral order where appropriate consequences follow actions. As hideous as the result of that currently is, you really wouldn't want it any other way, because it would rapidly descend into total moral chaos. That is why God didn't just snap His fingers and pretend nothing happened. It's why He didn't say, aw heck, you shouldn't have done that, but I'm going to overlook it just this one time. The relationship would have been contaminated, and would eventually have fallen apart again and again, because respect is lost when first principles are broken.

God's priorities in this matter are hard for us to apprehend because the pain of this life is so great it obscures our perspective. But the Bible, which is divine revelation, tells us that God dwells in unapproachable light, and that there is no variation or shadow in Him. He simply cannot compromise on these root issues. He created us to be free moral agents, and that is exactly what we are going to be, like it or not. Even when the cost is this terrible wrinkle in time in which we find ourselves.

And so God faced a dilemma. Man, made in His own image, whom He loved, was lost to Him, and He could not bend the rules to get him back. The enemy, the usurper, satan, thought he had very shrewdly outfoxed even God. But the enemy did not take into account the astonishing sacrificial depth of God's love. In his own delusions, he had believed his own lie spoken to Eve in the Garden (Gen 3), that God rules over us for His own selfish aggrandizement. So God's solution not only needed to ransom captive man, it had to put that lie to rest for all eternity.

God's solution was for His only-begotten Son to become man and pay the penalty of sin in our place. We needed the virtue of a perfect man to take the place of fallen Adam. The Bible calls Christ the "second Adam," because He has re-fathered the human race.

But it goes even further than that. While we needed a perfect man, we got the very Son of God. We are not merely going back to our state in the Garden, wonderful as that would be; as the Bride of Christ we are going to the very throne room of the universe, to rule and reign with Him. The more you study what God has done, the more you will learn of His wonderful nature. The Bible tells us to "taste and see that the Lord is good".

Man's problem is his fallen perspective. We are in pain and we want a way out - NOW. Bend the rules, cut the corners, but get me out of this mess. God would love to remove the pain, and the sooner the better, but like a master builder, whatever He does is done right, to last. And with God, His kingdom established by love will last forever. So we for this brief moment continue in pain, but God has given us the Comforter, and He also promised that He will one day remove the pain forever. He asks us to consider His love for us, and to love Him back. It's essentially that simple.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” -Rev 21:1-8​
 
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Job8

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Why must animals and Adam's decendents pay for his foolishness? The cruelty I refer to are the incidents where I cannot see any sin occurring. It is these situations I cannot understand. How will getting the Gospel to others prevent volcanoes, hurricanes and disease?
The sin of Adam and Eve brought a curse on not only the human race, but upon all creation. Since the Creator has His reasons, we must accept that as His decision for His own reasons. God could have wiped out Adam and Even and started afresh. Instead He designed a better plan. He would allow mankind and the earth to be under a curse for a "season", but ultimately He would redeem and perfect the universe, and all those who received Christ as their Lord and Saviour. In eternity we will discover that this was a far better plan. So all the natural disasters you have mentioned are not going to continue for eternity. But that is the result of the curse from sin.
 
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ewq1938

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In some cases perhaps, but surely not in many other cases?

Well nothing in scripture suggests God makes diseases and plagues us with them. I think they simply come often naturally in a mortal world in mortal bodies. Something will fail eventually.



An excellent summary of my question. I wonder why we have to guess?

Because we don't know.



But why? Surely its not necessary?

It's hard for us to see the need for it but perhaps it serves a very important function that escapes our ability to understand at this time.
 
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ewq1938

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So we must pay for the sins of others?

Not that I view it this way but many understand that we don't pay for his sins but we inherit what he did when we sin and thus receive the same basic circumstances that he did.
 
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Gumph

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We are held hostage to the sin of Adam, because when God created it was according to a moral order where appropriate consequences follow actions.

Do you feel that punishing offspring for the faults of thee parents is appropriate?

As hideous as the result of that currently is, you really wouldn't want it any other way, because it would rapidly descend into total moral chaos. That is why God didn't just snap His fingers and pretend nothing happened. It's why He didn't say, aw heck, you shouldn't have done that, but I'm going to overlook it just this one time. The relationship would have been contaminated, and would eventually have fallen apart again and again, because respect is lost when first principles are broken.

Are there not other alternatives such as starting over and redesigning a better product? Surely there are better ways?

God's solution was for His only-begotten Son to become man and pay the penalty of sin in our place. We needed the virtue of a perfect man to take the place of fallen Adam.

Does this not mean that we can now start afresh and stop being punished for what Adam did?

Man's problem is his fallen perspective. We are in pain and we want a way out - NOW. Bend the rules, cut the corners, but get me out of this mess. God would love to remove the pain, and the sooner the better, but like a master builder, whatever He does is done right, to last. And with God, His kingdom established by love will last forever. So we for this brief moment continue in pain, but God has given us the Comforter, and He also promised that He will one day remove the pain forever. He asks us to consider His love for us, and to love Him back. It's essentially that simple.

I must admit that I am struggling to understand why an all powerful God could not cut corners or change the rules. A world punctuated with unnecessary cruelty just seems a bit odd IMO.

The sin of Adam and Eve brought a curse on not only the human race, but upon all creation.

Does this not strike you as being grossly unfair?

Since the Creator has His reasons, we must accept that as His decision for His own reasons. God could have wiped out Adam and Even and started afresh. Instead He designed a better plan.

How is the current plan better than starting afresh?

He would allow mankind and the earth to be under a curse for a "season", but ultimately He would redeem and perfect the universe,

Why the delay?
 
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Gumph

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Well nothing in scripture suggests God makes diseases and plagues us with them. I think they simply come often naturally in a mortal world in mortal bodies. Something will fail eventually.

How about that bit in the beginning where it says God created everything. Don't viruses and bacteria fall into that category?
Is eventual failure not a design flaw?

Because we don't know.
It's hard for us to see the need for it but perhaps it serves a very important function that escapes our ability to understand at this time

Don't you think it would be appropriate for him to explain to us why this "boot camp" is necessary?
 
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Gumph

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Not that I view it this way but many understand that we don't pay for his sins but we inherit what he did when we sin and thus receive the same basic circumstances that he did.

I find this problematic.

1) We seem to have a serious design flaw.
2) We don't get the same personal instructions that Adam got, yet we get the same punishment. We're not even sure of the rules.
 
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ewq1938

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I find this problematic.

1) We seem to have a serious design flaw.

I don't see it like that as far as our morality. We choose to be good or bad or whatever mix of both. Our "design" doesn't decide that, we do.


2) We don't get the same personal instructions that Adam got,

Not important since his instructions were not to eat the fruit of a certain tree.

yet we get the same punishment. We're not even sure of the rules.

Sure we are. Don't be bad or do bad things. When we do, we deserve the results and deserve this crazy chaotic place but if we have faith in God that if we live according to his law and what is written to us in scripture, we can find that new and better life and world.
 
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St_Worm2

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Surely an all powerful God would not have created creatures who were unable to obey a simple order?

Hi Gumph, He didn't, He created creatures who were able to obey OR disobey a simple order. IOW, our progenitors were given the ability to "choose", and they chose poorly :(
 
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rockytopva

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If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Our brains output is a result of E/c2
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

Christ Jesus said that...

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. - Matthew 24:12

and it is said in the Old Testament...

Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart. - Hosea 4:11

When people get caught up in the partying scene they begin to chase a feel good mentality that they can never grasp. Anger, darkness, coldness, fear, depression, and a spiritual void encompass the spiritual man. Innocency from evil is lost, which adds to the evil already in the world.
 
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Job8

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Does this not strike you as being grossly unfair?
Who said life is fair? It was the foolishness of Adam and Eve which made life unfair. We must begin with the understanding that life is totally unfair, but God's grace has provided Christ to ensure that in the end righteousness will prevail.
 
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St_Worm2

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Are there not other alternatives such as starting over and redesigning a better product? Surely there are better ways?

Hi Gumph, your alternative seems just a tad on the cold side, don't you think, especially when you consider that the "product" you're suggesting God should scrap (rather than fix), is us :eek:

As a point in fact, the product "design" was perfect according to the Bible (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 1:31; Ecclesiastes 7:29), so starting over would not eliminate the problem. That brings us to the burning question that no one can answer (at least, not on this side of Glory anyway), since there was no flaw in product line, why didn't it work the way it was supposed to :scratch:

While it is frustrating that we cannot answer that particular question right now, the good news is, God has given us what we need, the Answer to the problem we face :) (which is found in His Son, Jesus Christ .. see John 3:3; John 5:24; Romans 10:9-10).

Yours and His,
David
 
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oi_antz

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Why does he not just create a world as he wants it?
I am wondering why you suggest (therefore believe) that He didn't. Is this something that He has said?
Why this painful transition?
For the result - that is, a world redeemed from sin.
Why should human medical advancement even be required?
What alternatives do you know?
Some natural examples I had in mind:
- African Wild Dogs kill their prey by eating it on the run until it dies from exhaustion and blood loss.
- Crocodiles kill their land prey by drowning it.
- The tape worm feeds from the intestines of animals causing great discomfort and sometimes even death.
- Parisitoids - a group of animals/insects which lay their eggs in a living host and then hatch and feed off it until it dies.
Do you think that these creatures do not consider the needs of their prey enough, and that they consider only their hunger?
What about natural disasters such as droughts and floods (before the time of global warming), volcanic eruptions ... essentially those that are not caused by man and yet cause great harm to man and animals alike?
I am not certain what you meant in saying "what about" - can you please elaborate a bit.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Gump. You had some good answers, and you will now know that God created a good world, and God made Man in His image. We did go wrong and instead of listening to God, we did go our own ways. Again and again God has tried to help us to follow His Leading, but we always preferred to go our own way. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus told us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." That is easily understood and straightforward. In Matthew 7: 7-10:
we are told: " ask and you shall receive." We ask God for Love and Joy, then we thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends.
In Galatians 6: 7-8: we are told: God will not be mocked, God sees how we ignore His advice and choose to go our own way. What happens there? Our selfish wishes and wants are for all we can get and have, God does not interfere,
because God gave us free will, and we choose our own wrong things. Galatians also tells us that we get what we ask for, and without God there will be no blessing. We always bring our own bad results from our own bad choosing.
And nature and the animals go their own ways, and the result is not God`s choice.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," we have to give up our selfishness and start being loving and caring and always friendly and helpful. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way:
JESUS IS THE WAY.
God created everything wonderful and good, and Satan achieves many things with our help. God wants our best and God has been our Heavenly Father who Loves us. Let us now remember that we as Christians follow Christ and our weapon is Love in all we say and all we do. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us and carry on Loving and Caring. I say this with love, Gump. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Gump. You had some good answers, and you will now know that God created a good world, and God made Man in His image. We did go wrong and instead of listening to God, we did go our own ways. Again and again God has tried to help us to follow His Leading, but we always preferred to go our own way. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus told us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." That is easily understood and straightforward. In Matthew 7: 7-10:
we are told: " ask and you shall receive." We ask God for Love and Joy, then we thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends.
In Galatians 6: 7-8: we are told: God will not be mocked, God sees how we ignore His advice and choose to go our own way. What happens there? Our selfish wishes and wants are for all we can get and have, God does not interfere,
because God gave us free will, and we choose our own wrong things. Galatians also tells us that we get what we ask for, and without God there will be no blessing. We always bring our own bad results from our own bad choosing.
And nature and the animals go their own ways, and the result is not God`s choice.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," we have to give up our selfishness and start being loving and caring and always friendly and helpful. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way:
JESUS IS THE WAY.
God created everything wonderful and good, and Satan achieves many things with our help. God wants our best and God has been our Heavenly Father who Loves us. Let us now remember that we as Christians follow Christ and our weapon is Love in all we say and all we do. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us and carry on Loving and Caring. I say this with love, Gump. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Gumph

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Who said life is fair? It was the foolishness of Adam and Eve which made life unfair. We must begin with the understanding that life is totally unfair, but God's grace has provided Christ to ensure that in the end righteousness will prevail.

No one I know of says life is fair. I would simply expect a just and all powerful God to create a fair world. I cannot fathom why he would produce an unfair one. Just because I understand that it is unfair does not mean it should be.
 
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Job8

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No one I know of says life is fair. I would simply expect a just and all powerful God to create a fair world. I cannot fathom why he would produce an unfair one. Just because I understand that it is unfair does not mean it should be.
God created a perfect creation, and had man obeyed God, it would have remained perfect. The disobedience of Adam and Eve brought a curse upon creation, but that curse will be removed shortly (in terms of God's view of time). Then everything will be fair and just and righteous. The Kingdom of God shall be established on earth and throughout the universe.
 
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Gumph

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Hi Gumph, your alternative seems just a tad on the cold side, don't you think, especially when you consider that the "product" you're suggesting God should scrap (rather than fix), is us :eek:

:) Well, I was actually suggesting he could have used the alternative option at the time of Adam. We would not be any the wiser.

As a point in fact, the product "design" was perfect according to the Bible, so starting over would not eliminate the problem. That brings us to the burning question that no one can answer (at least, not on this side of Glory anyway), since there was no flaw in product line, why didn't it work the way it was supposed to :scratch:

Thank you, that perplexes me too.

While it is frustrating that we cannot answer that particular question right now, the good news is, God has given us what we need, the Answer to the problem we face :) (which is found in His Son, Jesus Christ).

I personally find it a very disappointing and vague answer, shrouded in mystery and doubt. But I also realise that this is not the place to discuss such matters, and that most of you disagree whole heartedly with my opinion.
 
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Gumph

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I am wondering why you suggest (therefore believe) that He didn't. Is this something that He has said?

I am hoping that a world with apparently random pain and cruelty was not what he had in mind, nor one where evil deeds of some cause pain and suffering to millions of others who do their best to be good.

For the result - that is, a world redeemed from sin.

How does creating a world with pain and suffering, result in a world redeemed of sin?
Is there no other way?

What alternatives do you know?

How about, don't create cruel and painful diseases that attack indiscriminately in the first place?

Do you think that these creatures do not consider the needs of their prey enough, and that they consider only their hunger?

I'm not really sure what they consider.

I am not certain what you meant in saying "what about" - can you please elaborate a bit.

I'm asking why God created a world with natural disasters, that cause pain and suffering indiscriminately.
 
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Gumph

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In Galatians 6: 7-8: we are told: God will not be mocked, God sees how we ignore His advice and choose to go our own way. What happens there? Our selfish wishes and wants are for all we can get and have, God does not interfere,
because God gave us free will, and we choose our own wrong things. Galatians also tells us that we get what we ask for, and without God there will be no blessing. We always bring our own bad results from our own bad choosing.
And nature and the animals go their own ways, and the result is not God`s choice.

I understand being punished for bad deeds. I don't understand why punishment rains down in the forms of natural disaster or disease infecting infants.

Are animals being punished for what they do wrong too? Eg the Gazelle being eaten alive by a pack of hunting dogs?
 
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