Christmas and Easter

Soyeong

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Hehe....those commandments were given before the Temple was built. Plus we see some of them even before the Mishkan. Sacrifice, holy ground, bread and wine offering to priests....etc

More to the point- if you think the worship instructions of the Torah are no longer in force- what are you left with? Human opinion? Why do people get to throw out all the Torah commands about the "how" of worship but want to brawl, fight and accuse over the "when"? We know that pretty much the bulk of the Moedim are vitally connected in some way to the Temple/Mishkan. For example, you can't do Pesach the Bible way without a sacrifice and a priesthood. Nor can you do Yom Kippur, or First Fruits without a priesthood.

So, why are we allowed to abrogate some parts of the Torah ("annul the Law"- which would be against forum rules to teach) and not others- and who gets to judge?

Just pointing out what looks rather inconsistent to me- but what do I know? I'm not very intelligent.

I said nothing about the Torah being no longer in force or that it was abrogated, but that the parts in regard to Temple practice apply when there is a Temple. The command to keep Passover only applies on the 14th of Nisan, so does that mean that someone who doesn't keep that command on the 15th thinks the Torah has been abrogated? No, of course not. If someone who is living in Florida doesn't keep California State laws, should they be arrested? No, California State laws only apply to people living in California. Was Jesus violating the Torah when he didn't obey the law that was in regard to a woman's period? No, understanding how the law applies is important. We don't need to keep the parts that aren't applicable, but we should still keep the parts that are.
 
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ContraMundum

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I said nothing about the Torah being no longer in force or that it was abrogated, but that the parts in regard to Temple practice apply when there is a Temple. The command to keep Passover only applies on the 14th of Nisan, so does that mean that someone who doesn't keep that command on the 15th thinks the Torah has been abrogated? No, of course not. If someone who is living in Florida doesn't keep California State laws, should they be arrested? No, California State laws only apply to people living in California. Was Jesus violating the Torah when he didn't obey the law that was in regard to a woman's period? No, understanding how the law applies is important. We don't need to keep the parts that aren't applicable, but we should still keep the parts that are.

Again, you're focusing on the "when", and not addressing the "how". How do we worship, according to the Bible?
 
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Soyeong

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Again, you're focusing on the "when", and not addressing the "how". How do we worship, according to the Bible?

That's what the Torah is about. I can't answer your question without reciting it.
 
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ContraMundum

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Soyeong

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Nice. Condescending. I'm not asking you to read the Torah- just explain how you understand it.

I'm sorry, it's a really broad topic with a lifetime to understand. Would it hurt you to ask a more specific question?
 
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sahjimira

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It's possible for someone to pray for things that are against God's will that would not be in His name, even if they were to tack that on to the end of their prayer. Similarly, when we, as God's representatives, act against God's will, then we are taking his name in vain. Jesus said not to stop others from using his name because they were doing his will. Now, is it in God's will to celebrate pagan holidays and to worship God in the way that the pagans do? No, God specifically commanded the Israelites not to worship Him in their way. The problem with Christmas and Easter is twofold in that they both worship God in the way of the pagans and they neglect to worship God in the way that He commanded.
 
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sahjimira

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To me a positive thing happened at Thanksgiving. My son who has drifted from the Lord was talking about Christmas. He does the tree, lights, gift giving and I believe his kids believe in Santa Claus. That ofcourse I'd not the positive! He did say he had had it with people saying Xmas instead of Christmas. He called someone on it and said it's not Xmas it's CHRISTmas
and that's what it's about
May not seem like much but it was only s few weeks ago he said "can we not talk about God today, I really don't feel like it". So when he told me about the Xmas thing it gave me hope. Needless to say I pray for him and his family all the time. They know I absolutely will not do Halloween and that I keep the Sabbath. They also know my past and I'm not perfect. It did give me s Ray of hope tho when he denounced Xmas.
 
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Lulav

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visionary

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Word association.... Christmas.. and the things it conjures up in the mind of us all... I wish Feast of Tabernacles conjured up Yeshua's birth in the minds of us all. If that happened then Christmas would be left for those of the Santa Claus. We need to be more proactive to promote it with song, praise, and celebrations that all would embrace it.
 
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Soyeong

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To me a positive thing happened at Thanksgiving. My son who has drifted from the Lord was talking about Christmas. He does the tree, lights, gift giving and I believe his kids believe in Santa Claus. That ofcourse I'd not the positive! He did say he had had it with people saying Xmas instead of Christmas. He called someone on it and said it's not Xmas it's CHRISTmas
and that's what it's about
May not seem like much but it was only s few weeks ago he said "can we not talk about God today, I really don't feel like it". So when he told me about the Xmas thing it gave me hope. Needless to say I pray for him and his family all the time. They know I absolutely will not do Halloween and that I keep the Sabbath. They also know my past and I'm not perfect. It did give me s Ray of hope tho when he denounced Xmas.

I used to be the same way about Xmas, but then I read C. S. Lewis using it, which made we reconsider how little I knew about the origin of it. It actually dates back to the 16th century and comes from the Greek letter "Chi", which is the first letter in Greek word for "Christ". It's shorthand, but Christ is still in it.
 
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mickiio

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Again, you're focusing on the "when", and not addressing the "how". How do we worship, according to the Bible?
In spirit and in truth. John 4:23-24 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.” 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
 
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Soyeong

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In spirit and in truth. John 4:23-24 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.” 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

But how do you worship God in spirit and in truth? That takes us back to needing to read the Torah.
 
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mickiio

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But how do you worship God in spirit and in truth? That takes us back to needing to read the Torah.
The Torah and bible are very similar. Both are Holy Scriptures. The Torah points to Jesus as the fulfillment of the Law. The New Testament shows His fulfillment. In that verse, it is discussed by the woman at the well, which places she should worship God, in Jerusalem or Mt Gerizim or where...? Jesus answered that it isn't the place that is important, it is the relationship. In "spirit and in truth". True worship is from the heart. With the coming of the Christ it was not necessary to have the Jews and Gentiles separated, and not necessary to have the temple anymore. With the coming of the Christ, all of God's children gained equal access through Christ. Worship became a matter of the heart not external actions, directed by heart not ceremony.
 
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Soyeong

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The Torah is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and it is truth (Psalms 119:142), and the role of the Spirit is to lead us in obedience to God's Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and in truth (John 16:13), so worshiping God in spirit and in truth takes the form of obedience to the Torah from the heart. Jesus fulfilled the Torah by teaching a full understanding of how to obey it and by demonstrating a perfectly sinless example for us to follow of how it should be obeyed, and we are told that we should follow his example (1 Peter 2:21) and that we ought to walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6). It was never necessary for Jews and Gentiles to be separated, and their separation was in fact in violation of the Torah (Leviticus 19:34). It is possible worship God in vain and honor Him with our lips while our hearts are far from Him (Isaiah 1:13-17, Isaiah 29:13), so our hearts being in the right place is indeed important, but having our hearts in the right place doesn't mean that we are free to disobey God's commands for how to correctly worship Him. Rather, if our heart is in the right place, then we will obey those commands. True worship has always been by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) from the heart and Moses could not have used that as an excuse to disobey God's commands any more than we can. Jesus spoke of a time that was coming when people would worship in spirit and in truth, and indeed many Christians are now returning to obeying God's Torah from the heart.
 
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BelieveTheWord

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To me a positive thing happened at Thanksgiving. My son who has drifted from the Lord was talking about Christmas. He does the tree, lights, gift giving and I believe his kids believe in Santa Claus. That ofcourse I'd not the positive! He did say he had had it with people saying Xmas instead of Christmas. He called someone on it and said it's not Xmas it's CHRISTmas
and that's what it's about
May not seem like much but it was only s few weeks ago he said "can we not talk about God today, I really don't feel like it". So when he told me about the Xmas thing it gave me hope. Needless to say I pray for him and his family all the time. They know I absolutely will not do Halloween and that I keep the Sabbath. They also know my past and I'm not perfect. It did give me s Ray of hope tho when he denounced Xmas.
At this point things can be tricky though. If he finds that Christmas was indeed set up to mimic the resurrection of the sun god after the solstice, then it could backfire. That information is out there, so if he is challenged by someone to research it, that's what he will find. Here is information about His real birth date: http://restoringourjewishroots.blogspot.com/2009/09/yeshua-born-sept-11-3-bc.html

Certainly we should seize any opportunity to share the truth of Scripture. I think it ought to be the whole truth though. You don't have to blurt everything out all at once, of course. Just keep up the dialogue so you stay a step ahead of the atheist anti-missionaries.
 
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pat34lee

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The Torah and bible are very similar. Both are Holy Scriptures.
Worship became a matter of the heart not external actions, directed by heart not ceremony.

Two main points. Both are wrong.

ALL scripture is the same, not similar. None is out of date or set aside.

Worship has always been a matter of the heart followed by external actions.
It isn't one or the other. He requires both.

Psalm 51-15-19
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
 
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Taom Ben Robert

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At this point things can be tricky though. If he finds that Christmas was indeed set up to mimic the resurrection of the sun god after the solstice, then it could backfire. That information is out there, so if he is challenged by someone to research it, that's what he will find. Here is information about His real birth date: http://restoringourjewishroots.blogspot.com/2009/09/yeshua-born-sept-11-3-bc.html

Certainly we should seize any opportunity to share the truth of Scripture. I think it ought to be the whole truth though. You don't have to blurt everything out all at once, of course. Just keep up the dialogue so you stay a step ahead of the atheist anti-missionaries.

The problem with the pagan origins theory is that in the first few centuries ad Christianity did NOT borrow from other religions, two , as early as the second centery a church father mentions dec 25 as Christs birthday , three the pagan origins idea originates from the 18th century.
 
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