Can Matthew 10:28 and Ezek 18:4 be believed just as they are written?

Is it correct to accept Matt 10:28 and Ezek 18:4 just as they read?

  • Yes they should be accepted just as they read

    Votes: 11 91.7%
  • They can be accepted if you make some changes

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • They no longer apply

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • It would take a lot of explaining before you should accept them

    Votes: 1 8.3%

  • Total voters
    12

Root of Jesse

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Your own statement has no authority by that standard. (as you will probably agree).

As for "Communion WITH the dead' CCC 958 - included as a reference to SAINTs -- who have died -

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective

The idea that the saints are excluded from CCC 958 is hard to justify.
I have no authority, for sure. As for communion with the dead, the paragraph you quote says nothing about praying TO the dead. It speaks of respect for the memory...it speaks of praying FOR the dead. It says nothing of praying TO the dead.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Okay. If I do, will you believe that the wicked will be no more, or will you continue to argue against what the Bible says?
Psalm 37:10
In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.
It's talking about bodily death, not spiritual death.
Actually, I'm not wrong about John 3:16, it says "whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life".
Right, and those who reject him will have eternal death.
And you forgot to tell me where the Bible says that the wicked will inherit eternal life. How could they have eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever if they do not have eternal life at all? Don't sidestep this, it is very important.
Why does it have to be from the Bible. Why can't we go with God's Word?
Matthew 25:46, though. And the others I've mentioned before.
 
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Timothew

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It's talking about bodily death, not spiritual death.
Actually, It doesn't say either. It says "the wicked will be no more". You asked me to show you where the Bible says the wicked will be no more. I did that. So why are you complaining about so called "bodily death" or so called "spiritual death". Do you how many times the Bible says "spiritual death"? Exactly Zero Times. Why did you ask me where the Bible says that the wicked will be no more if you weren't going to believe that the wicked will be more anyway? Were you just hoping that I wouldn't be able to find a passage in the Bible that said "the wicked will be no more"? Why would you do that? Aren't you interested in discovering the truth? Or do you just want to be proven right, whether or not you really are right?
Right, and those who reject him will have eternal death.
At Last! That is what I have been trying to tell you! Those who reject him will have eternal death and those who put their faith in him will have eternal life.
Why does it have to be from the Bible. Why can't we go with God's Word?
The Bible IS God's Word. Don't sidestep this, it is very important. Show me where the Bible says that the wicked will receive eternal life. You've sidestepped this question twice already. The answer will prove to you that the wicked do NOT receive eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever while they are dead. The wicked will be destroyed and will be no more just as the Bible says.
Matthew 25:46, though. And the others I've mentioned before.
What about Matthew 25:46? Do you think that Matthew 25:46 says that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment in Hell? It doesn't say that. You just said yourself that those who reject him will have eternal death. Matthew 25:46 says that they go to eternal punishment. You said that is eternal death, and I agree with you on that. Matthew 25:46 doesn't help the side that wants the eternal punishment to be eternal conscious torment.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Actually, It doesn't say either. It says "the wicked will be no more". You asked me to show you where the Bible says the wicked will be no more. I did that. So why are you complaining about so called "bodily death" or so called "spiritual death". Do you how many times the Bible says "spiritual death"? Exactly Zero Times. Why did you ask me where the Bible says that the wicked will be no more if you weren't going to believe that the wicked will be more anyway? Were you just hoping that I wouldn't be able to find a passage in the Bible that said "the wicked will be no more"? Why would you do that? Aren't you interested in discovering the truth? Or do you just want to be proven right, whether or not you really are right?
Providing text without context gives pretext.
At Last! That is what I have been trying to tell you! Those who reject him will have eternal death and those who put their faith in him will have eternal life.
We're saying different things, though. Eternal death means you are, eternally, without God's love. That's punishment.
The Bible IS God's Word. Don't sidestep this, it is very important. Show me where the Bible says that the wicked will receive eternal life. You've sidestepped this question twice already. The answer will prove to you that the wicked do NOT receive eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever while they are dead. The wicked will be destroyed and will be no more just as the Bible says.
The Bible is God's Word, but it is not THE ONLY Word of God. Therefore, I choose not to be limited to just what's in the Bible. I'm not sidestepping anything. We're speaking on two different planes, and I won't play that way.
What about Matthew 25:46? Do you think that Matthew 25:46 says that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment in Hell? It doesn't say that. You just said yourself that those who reject him will have eternal death. Matthew 25:46 says that they go to eternal punishment. You said that is eternal death, and I agree with you on that. Matthew 25:46 doesn't help the side that wants the eternal punishment to be eternal conscious torment.
Matt 25:46 "And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life." You don't know what eternal death means. Obviously. Bye!
 
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Timothew

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Providing text without context gives pretext.
Did you read Psalm 37 for the context? I assumed that you could do that without me posting the entire Psalm. The context agrees that the wicked shall be no more. But I'm willing to listen to what you have to say. Can you show me, from the context of Psalm 37 how "the wicked will be no more" actually means "the wicked will continue to exist forever in hell being tortured alive"?
We're saying different things, though. Eternal death means you are, eternally, without God's love. That's punishment.
That is simply NOT what eternal death means. I suggest to you that you look up the words eternal and death. The Bible never ever says that "eternal death means you are eternally without God's love". But again, I am willing to be proven wrong. Can you show me where the Bible says eternal death means you are eternally alive and not dead and without God's love?
The Bible is God's Word, but it is not THE ONLY Word of God. Therefore, I choose not to be limited to just what's in the Bible. I'm not sidestepping anything. We're speaking on two different planes, and I won't play that way.
That's okay. If God told you Himself that He plans to torture people alive in Hell, who am I to tell you different? But since He said differently in the Bible, I truly doubt that God told you that He has torture planned for anyone.
Matt 25:46 "And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life." You don't know what eternal death means. Obviously. Bye!
Death means the end of life, not being alive anymore. Eternal means forever. So eternal death means being dead forever. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever, so you obviously don't know what eternal death means. But I just believe the Bible which says that the wicked will perish and will be no more, for the wages of sin is death and whoever believes in Christ will not perish but will have eternal life.
 
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BobRyan

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Rev 20
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

And of course these texts become easier to understand once we accept those texts as they read.

1 Tim 6:
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light,

Also the 1Thess 4 rapture text just as it reads.

1Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 11
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

In the actual Bible the body returns to dust - annihilated - and the spirit/soul is that which returns to God. 1 Cor 15 says that the old decayed body that is laid to rest - is not what is raised - rather we are given a new body at the resurrection - 2Cor 5:1-3 says it is made in heaven for us - and is not the decaying tent that was sown.

speaking only of the physical body that dies - the "decaying tent" of 2Cor 5. (But not the soul, not the spirit)

Dictionary:
Annihilate -
to reduce to utter ruin or nonexistence; destroy utterly:
"The heavy bombing annihilated what was left of the city."

In physics at the subatomic particle level there is also the idea of converting matter into energy.
Which is never the context used in the Bible.

speaking only of the physical body that dies -
Ps 90:3
You turn man back into dust
And say, “Return, O children of men.”

Gen 3
By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return

The physical body that is joined with the spirit/soul at the bodily resurrection is not the "old decaying" and decrepit body that was sown just as we are informed in 2Cor 5:1-3. Rather it is an entirely new one.

So you don't believe that the body that returned to dust (which doesn't mean annihilated) can be reunited by God with the soul? Then why are their human people (body and soul) in heaven?

You are not following the point. The physical body that is joined with the soul/spirit at the bodily resurrection of the saints - is not the old decayed body that they had at death. See 2Cor 5:1-4

Matt 17 has humans physically raised to life and Eph 4 says they were taken bodily to heaven just as Christ was taken bodily to heaven - and so also Moses according to the book the "Assumption of Moses" also quoted in the book of Jude.

1 Cor 15
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Did you read Psalm 37 for the context? I assumed that you could do that without me posting the entire Psalm. The context agrees that the wicked shall be no more. But I'm willing to listen to what you have to say. Can you show me, from the context of Psalm 37 how "the wicked will be no more" actually means "the wicked will continue to exist forever in hell being tortured alive"?
Brother, I pray the Psalms every day. They live in me. But the Psalms understanding of God, death and heaven and hell are the Hebrew understanding, not the Christian understanding. The Psalm, 37, is talking about the wicked on earth, because the Hebrews didn't really have a concept of what happens after we physically die.
That is simply NOT what eternal death means. I suggest to you that you look up the words eternal and death. The Bible never ever says that "eternal death means you are eternally without God's love". But again, I am willing to be proven wrong. Can you show me where the Bible says eternal death means you are eternally alive and not dead and without God's love?
I've done that. Why do I need to go any further?
That's okay. If God told you Himself that He plans to torture people alive in Hell, who am I to tell you different? But since He said differently in the Bible, I truly doubt that God told you that He has torture planned for anyone.
I don't believe God tortures anyone. What God does is gives us whatever it is we love the most. If it's not God, we find out what it's like to not have God's love. You don't think that would be torture?
Death means the end of life, not being alive anymore. Eternal means forever. So eternal death means being dead forever. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever, so you obviously don't know what eternal death means. But I just believe the Bible which says that the wicked will perish and will be no more, for the wages of sin is death and whoever believes in Christ will not perish but will have eternal life.
Right. Death is bodily death. But Revelation shows us that our bodies are reunited with our souls, and this is so for everyone. I think you're mixing bodily death and spiritual death. The spirit does not die.
 
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BobRyan

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Ezek 18 is not talking about people born sinless that remain sinless -- vs those who don't. Ezek 18 is talking about the ultimate fate of the lost and the saved - contrasting both of them. And in that context - the saved live.

Far from talking about "born sinless and living sinless" Ezek 18 is talking about the Gen 6 and Luke 1 examples/context for sinner that are choosing righteousness by faith - and obedience rather than rebellion and is inline with Romans 8:4-9 .

Gen 6
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Gen 7
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The gospel and forgiveness is "in context" in Ezek 18.

Ezek 18
4. “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
 
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Timothew

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The Bible clearly says there are no good people. Therefore all people die and there is no hope of (eternal) life.

bugkiller
True, but some people repent of their sins and turn to Christ for forgiveness of their sins. These people have their sins removed, so they have eternal life because of Jesus Christ. This is what the Bible says, it is the Gospel Message. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life".
 
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Root of Jesse

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The physical body that is joined with the spirit/soul at the bodily resurrection is not the "old decaying" and decrepit body that was sown just as we are informed in 2Cor 5:1-3. Rather it is an entirely new one.



You are not following the point. The physical body that is joined with the soul/spirit at the bodily resurrection of the saints - is not the old decayed body that they had at death. See 2Cor 5:1-4

Matt 17 has humans physically raised to life and Eph 4 says they were taken bodily to heaven just as Christ was taken bodily to heaven - and so also Moses according to the book the "Assumption of Moses" also quoted in the book of Jude.

1 Cor 15
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
I haven't missed the point. I never said it was the old decaying and decrepit body, but it is the body-we're only given one body. Jesus proves this when he shows his wounds after His resurrection. Our bodies will be joined with our souls, wherever they reside, heaven or hell. That's my point.
 
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BobRyan

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I haven't missed the point. I never said it was the old decaying and decrepit body, but it is the body-we're only given one body.

The body "returns to dust" -- the body that is raised is not the one that was sown - according to 1 Cor 15.

And in 2Cor 5 they are two entirely different bodies - a decaying one that we have in this life - and an eternal one made by God that is given at the resurrection.

2 Cor 5: 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

That means that burning all those Protestants at the stake in the dark ages - did nothing to prevent them from being raised up at the 2nd coming. Dust is dust.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The body "returns to dust" -- the body that is raised is not the one that was sown - according to 1 Cor 15.

And in 2Cor 5 they are two entirely different bodies - a decaying one that we have in this life - and an eternal one made by God that is given at the resurrection.

2 Cor 5: 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

That means that burning all those Protestants at the stake in the dark ages - did nothing to prevent them from being raised up at the 2nd coming. Dust is dust.
In Revelation, and in the Gospels, there are bodies in heaven.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Are they human?? Is it future? or where they resurrected in Matt 17??

Quote something.
At the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were seen with Jesus. Moses and Elijah were dead. In Revelation, Mary and Jesus are bodily in heaven.
 
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BobRyan

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At the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were seen with Jesus. Moses and Elijah were dead. In Revelation, Mary and Jesus are bodily in heaven.

Elijah was translated by God directly to heaven - bodily assumed into heaven - read 2 Kings 2.
So also was Enoch.

And in Jude we find a quote from the book "the Assumption of Moses" which points to the fact that Moses was resurrected and then bodily assumed into heaven.

Mary does not appear at all in the book of Revelation. She was not resurrected. She was not bodily assumed into heaven. She is not mentioned at all in the Bible outside of the Gospels. She is not even mentioned at the Acts 15 Jerusalem council.

In the Gospels - Jesus was observed to have bodily ascended into heaven just as He was bodily raised from the dead.

Details matter.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Elijah was translated by God directly to heaven - bodily assumed into heaven - read 2 Kings 2.
So also was Enoch.
So there are human bodies in heaven alive. That's my point.
And in Jude we find a quote from the book "the Assumption of Moses" which points to the fact that Moses was resurrected and then bodily assumed into heaven.
Ditto, my point.
Mary does not appear at all in the book of Revelation. She was not resurrected. She was not bodily assumed into heaven. She is not mentioned at all in the Bible outside of the Gospels. She is not even mentioned at the Acts 15 Jerusalem council.
So the woman who gives birth to the male child, who is Jesus, isn't Mary? Secondly, WE don't rely strictly on the Bible.
In the Gospels - Jesus was observed to have bodily ascended into heaven just as He was bodily raised from the dead.

Details matter.
So at the second coming our bodies will be reunited with our souls. Jesus wouldn't show us things that aren't true.
 
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BobRyan

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So there are human bodies in heaven alive. That's my point.
Ditto, my point.

I did not object to Elijah, or Enoch or Moses and in fact I even added those who were raised in Matt 17.

But they have this sort of "body" -
2Cor 5
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,


So the woman who gives birth to the male child, who is Jesus, isn't Mary?

No - a woman is a symbol of a church in the book of Revelation. The woman of Rev 12 is Israel. As Christ said in John 4 "Salvation is of the Jews".

A pure woman in Rev 12 is a pure church. As we see in Rev 19 and as Paul points out in 2 Cor 11
I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. 3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

An impure woman in Rev 17 is an apostate church - as James also points out in James 4.
4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Root of Jesse

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I did not object to Elijah, or Enoch or Moses and in fact I even added those who were raised in Matt 17.

But they have this sort of "body" -
2Cor 5
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
They have a human body. Peter wanted to set up a tent for them.
No - a woman is a symbol of a church in the book of Revelation. The woman of Rev 12 is Israel. As Christ said in John 4 "Salvation is of the Jews".

A pure woman in Rev 12 is a pure church. As we see in Rev 19 and as Paul points out in 2 Cor 11
I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. 3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

An impure woman in Rev 17 is an apostate church - as James also points out in James 4.
4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

in Christ,

Bob
The woman who gives birth to Jesus is Mary, and she's in heaven body and soul. You can twist things all you want to, Bob. But that doesn't make it right.
 
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BobRyan

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I did not object to Elijah, or Enoch or Moses and in fact I even added those who were raised in Matt 17. But they have this sort of "body" -
2Cor 5
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,

They have a human body. Peter wanted to set up a tent for them..

What ????

Peter wanted to setup a tent for all humans on the planet that are alive -- ??

we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God,
longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,


4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed,
 
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