The gift of Tongues

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 27, 2015

Biblicist said:
Believe me, even though I will face up to whatever sins, evil and false doctrine that we Pentecostals have and will continue to propogate, I am certainly well versed enough with church history to recognise that Rome has a lot to answer for. I probably should say that about 12 months ago I passed on some information regarding a paedophile that a rather well know Pentecostal leader here in Melbourne had "protected" about 20 years back, so as you can imagine, if I can face up to our own wickedness, then the sins of the various historical denominations are absolutely fair game - let's hope that I can be as honest and judicial with my own life as well!

As my primary interest is with Pneumatology, where my views are heavily conditioned by a strong Trinitarian foundation, this means that I will relate to the better contemporary scholars, be they theologians, exegetical scholars or lexiographers. This demands that I read through the better commentaries and monographs that are based on First Corinthians in particular, where at the moment I currently own 14 contemporary commentaries (along with about four monographs) on First Corinthians. My Avatar contains all of my commentaries on First Corinthians which came about when I had them stacked on my desk during a particular study. As I have an interest with photography I though that it would make a great Avatar, so I grabbed a background screen and hey presto!

It's admirable and right that you passed this information on. I know of a Pentecostal church in Brisbane which attempted to cover up heinous inappropriate sexual advances made by a church employee to underage girls. The pastor of the church when addressing the issue to the congregation mentioned that Brendan Mann (why wouldn't I say his name) was simply offering assistance to the police.

Owning 14 commentaries on Corinthians is admirable too. My interests aren't in the Corinthian community so the only overviews on Corinthians I own are the general overviews of the NT, Paul Achtemeier and a few others. I did have Daniel Boyarin's monograph of St Paul from a Jewish perspective but I think it's been misplaced.

Biblicist · Nov 27, 2015

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
It's admirable and right that you passed this information on. I know of a Pentecostal church in Brisbane which attempted to cover up heinous inappropriate sexual advances made by a church employee to underage girls. The pastor of the church when addressing the issue to the congregation mentioned that Brendan Mann (why wouldn't I say his name) was simply offering assistance to the police.

Owning 14 commentaries on Corinthians is admirable too. My interests aren't in the Corinthian community so the only overviews on Corinthians I own are the general overviews of the NT, Paul Achtemeier and a few others. I did have Daniel Boyarin's monograph of St Paul from a Jewish perspective but I think it's been misplaced.

Aahhh...so your an Australian as well!!

When it comes to First Corinthians, even though chapters 12, 13 & 14 tend to be passages that seem to dissappear from the Bibles of many cessationists, I am just as convinced that for many Pentecostals, and to a lesser degree with those who are charismatic, these same chapters can easily make those within my ranks to feel as if they have became dyslexic when they turn to them.

Even though I have focused heavily on First Corinthians, to the detriment of some of the other Books, which I am slowly trying to rectify; these newer commentaries have undoubtedly allowed me to understand essentially the best thought (and also some of the bad) when it comes to the very important Pneumatic chapters of First Corinthians.

At the moment I am purchasing the four volume set on Acts by Craig Keener where he is still to release his final fourth volume. This has been a monumental work on his part where it will reach somewhere around 4500 pages. The benefit of this particular work is that along with his commentary, he has provided an incredible amount of technical support for his views which allows his readers to make up their own minds as to the validity of his points. Sadly, I do not own a single commentary that is based on the OT. (I'm logging off now.)

Shane658 · Nov 27, 2015

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
Apostasy is strong language... Some people know French or Italian some don't. Those who do have the spiritual gift of knowing another language as St Paul would have considered it. Don't confuse Glossolalia, "speaking another language" with Xenoglossia "the miracle of Pentacost" wherein people magically began to speak in other known languages not having learned them at all prior.

It is apostasy, its not from the Holy Spirit what is done today.."Speaking another language" means to speak in a different language such as spanish or greek......I.e. You speaking in Greek is speaking in another language.The "miracle of Pentacost" was the same , the ability to speak in another language.which is to speak in a different language such as Spanish or Greek. On Pentecost the speakers spoke in another language. They spoke which ever language was understood by the audience.

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 27, 2015

Biblicist said:
I'm logging off now.

Good chatting with you. I apologise if I came off hostile, yet enjoyed doing so.

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 27, 2015

Shane658 said:
It is apostasy, its not from the Holy Spirit what is done today.."Speaking another language" means to speak in a different language such as spanish or greek......I.e. You speaking in Greek is speaking in another language.The "miracle of Pentacost" was the same , the ability to speak in another language.which is to speak in a different language such as Spanish or Greek. On Pentecost the speakers spoke in another language. They spoke which ever language was understood by the audience.

Yes, I know. I've already said this in this thread. Be realistic though, how is it apostasy to babble incoherently?

Shane658 · Nov 27, 2015

Biblicist said:
As a Pentecosal of 40 years, I can confidently say that it will be highly unlikely that you (or I) will ever hear anyone speaking in a known human language when they are praying in tongues.

Paul goes to some lengths in First Corinthians to explain that when we pray in the Spirit (tongues), that the Holy Spirit will always direct his words to the Father, where in 1Cor 14:2 he goes on to say that no man will be able to understand what the Spirit is saying to the Father.

Tongues have ceased.
In order for something to be considered to be unknown in general, someone much be present to examine what is being considered and then make a determination based on there knowledge if what is being examined can be considered known or unknown.Keep this in mind. Now show me the scriptures to defend tongues still continuing or that defend what goes on in the Pentecostal Churches and Charismatics.

Shane658 · Nov 27, 2015

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
Yes, I know. I've already said this in this thread. Be realistic though, how is it apostasy to babble incoherently?

You seemed to being trying to make a point about, Xenoglossia and Glossolalia, you said dont Confuse Glossolalia with Xenoglossia, when to my understanding you defined them as two different things but gave the same meaning.Am i understanding you correctly?

Aelred of Rievaulx · Nov 27, 2015

Shane658 said:
You seemed to being trying to make a point about, Xenoglossia and Glossolalia, you said dont Confuse Glossolalia with Xenoglossia, when to my understanding you defined them as two different things but gave the same meaning.Am i understanding you correctly?

No I explicitly gave two different meanings. Xenoglossia is the miracle recorded in Acts where people spoke different understandable languages and Glossolalia is speaking different languages... Don't know how you got what you got...

Shane658 · Nov 27, 2015

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
No I explicitly gave two different meanings. Xenoglossia is the miracle recorded in Acts where people spoke different understandable languages and Glossolalia is speaking different languages... Don't know how you got what you got...

I have no idea what point you are trying make.To clear this up , lets back track.
I do not believe the gift of tongues has continued, but has ceased.There is no angelic language as Pentecostal and Charismatics teach.The difference between the Tongues of Acts vs the Tongues of Corinthians is that it was misused .They were not being used correctly.

Shane658 · Nov 27, 2015

Shane658 said:
You seemed to being trying to make a point about, Xenoglossia and Glossolalia, you said dont Confuse Glossolalia with Xenoglossia, when to my understanding you defined them as two different things but gave the same meaning.Am i understanding you correctly?

It is apostasy because the bible does not tell you to babble speak gibberish.Its a defect from the truth and is not from the Holy Spirit, me and others have stated so on earlier pages.What they do is in the same practice found in other false religions such as Mormons, Catholics,voodoo.

Albion · Nov 27, 2015

Biblicist said:
After the crowd heard the 120 praising God in their native languages, it is recognised that when Peter provided the Churches first evangelistic message that he did so in Aramaic, which was also the common language of the Jews in Judea.

I apparently don't follow the point you are intending to make. We all take it for granted that Peter did not go through the rest of his life speaking--and being heard--in the way that happened on Pentecost.

Hillsage · Nov 27, 2015

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
OK... So either you're right and some weird babbling practice was part of the Christian tradition and subsequently lost for millennia before being rediscovered in Azusa Street or I'm right and Paul was saying "Hey guys, keep the Mass intelligible"...

A comment to make on your post. Was it truly "rediscovered" or was it simply more spiritual enlightenment coming as a sort of latter rain from God to a church whose light was still so dimmed with the 'dark ages' of spiritual depravity?

EDIT Initial post was wrongly answered as a combination to Biblicist/Aelred. Deletions/corrections now made.

Hillsage · Nov 27, 2015

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
Some people know French or Italian some don't. Those who do have the spiritual gift of knowing another language as St Paul would have considered it. Don't confuse Glossolalia, "speaking another language" with Xenoglossia "the miracle of Pentacost" wherein people magically began to speak in other known languages not having learned them at all prior.

Now you remind me of another FundaMENTAList patient of mine who wanted to pat my flesh on the back by saying; "Isn't it wonderful that God has blessed you with the SPIRITUAL GIFT OF HEALING?" To which I had to tell her; "The GIFT OF HEALING from the Holy Spirit is manifested individually as HE wills not as WE/I WILLED. And that's why I don't have 'the GIFT OF HEALING'...I only have the Gift OF the Holy Spirit. who can manifest His GIFTS through ME, to those needing 'them', when HE WILLS."

I then explained to her; "The healing art I practice comes from a degree of man and not God. And the heathen peer of mine down the sidewalk has the same 'degree' as I." He later ran off with his secretary leaving his wife and 2 kids abandoned.

rockytopva · Nov 27, 2015

Here is a video of a lady speaking in tongues in my Pentecostal Holiness Church...

Shane658 · Nov 27, 2015

rockytopva said:
Here is a video of a lady speaking in tongues in my Pentecostal Holiness Church...

Funny how no one interpreted the gibberish.

rockytopva · Nov 27, 2015

I know that the Holy Spirit was there, not because that my ears heard the tongues, but because I could sense his Holy and Sweet Spirit in the sanctuary, warming the hearts of all who were there.

Albion · Nov 27, 2015

rockytopva said:
I know that the Holy Spirit was there, not because that my ears heard the tongues, but because I could sense his Holy and Sweet Spirit in the sanctuary, warming the hearts of all who were there.

He would have been there in the absence of any "tongues" demonstration, then. It would be interesting to contemplate a Pentecostalism that emphasized what actually happened on Pentecost but without all the phony-baloney theology that usually accompanies it like "angelic speech," "you're not a real Christian until you exhibit some of the gifts," etc.

rockytopva · Nov 27, 2015

There have been interpretations of tongues in our services. There also have been those who have attempted to interpret when we have known very well that it was not the Spirit of God doing the interpreting. We welcome interpretations of tongues so long as the Holy Spirit is the one doing the interpreting and that this is not something that came out of the flesh.

Albion · Nov 27, 2015

rockytopva said:
There have been interpretations of tongues in our services. There also have been those who have attempted to interpret when we have known very well that it was not the Spirit of God doing the interpreting. We welcome interpretations of tongues so long as the Holy Spirit is the one doing the interpreting and that this is not something that came out of the flesh.

But the tongues, if genuine, MUST be interpreted.

On the other hand, I completely understand what the lady on the video was doing if we agree that she was experiencing a deeply emotional physical release of some sort.

Shane658 · Nov 27, 2015

rockytopva said:
There have been interpretations of tongues in our services. There also have been those who have attempted to interpret when we have known very well that it was not the Spirit of God doing the interpreting. We welcome interpretations of tongues so long as the Holy Spirit is the one doing the interpreting and that this is not something that came out of the flesh.

Those that claim to be able to interpret/translate this gibberish should also be able to interpret/translate a human language which Tongues in the bible is.

The gift of Tongues

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