Catholic Church and freedom of speech

RenatusFeuritExAqua said:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/15/pope-francis-limits-to-freedom-of-expression

As someone returning to the Catholic Church from atheism, things like this concern me. If I'm not mistaken, Catholics are permitted to disagree with the Pope on political issues like this, and in this case I think the Pope is very wrong.

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ironically that is your right to do so, but you are confused as to what may be disagreed with and what cannot be disagreed with.
As far as the church is concerned Catholics must accept the catechism, the magisterium, and the official writings of the Popes. period.
So what they say about political issues must also be accepted.

The freedom to offend Catholicism and other religions is the exact same freedom that Catholicism uses when it says homosexual acts are wrong.

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once again, you are wrong. The Catholic church understands the difference between temptation and acting out as the result of temptation.
While temptation comes to all men, we are free to turn away from that temptation and choose to live holy lives that glorify God, just as Jesus did.
And also just as He did, our resource in that fight and the fight of the church against temptation is the word of God, and the guidance of the Church.

Secondly the Pope did not say that a person is free to offend other religions. In fact he said just the opposite.

Many homosexuals will find that teaching offensive.

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of course they will. the truth of the word of God is ALWAYS offensive to those in sin, because it exposes that sin to everyone who knows the truth.
truth does that. It shines a light into the darkness of sin and exposes the deception.

If Pope Francis says he wants freedom of expression not to extend to those who offend the Church, then by extension this is also an argument against the Church being allowed to teach against homosexual acts and other teachings.

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and once again you are making assumptions based upon an incorrect reading of what the Pope actually said.

Arguing that one type of offensive speech should be illegal implies that any speech found offensive by anybody ought to be illegal because modern governments apply laws equally to everyone.

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once again two incorrect assumptions:
1. the article did not cover what you are implying here.
2. truth is the opposite of a lie, and will always shine the light on such speech, exposing the lie for what it is.

It is for this reason that the Pope should support the legality of the freedom to insult the Church
because it is the same freedom by which the Church is allowed to teach things that offend certain groups.

Thoughts? Counterarguments?

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the Church teaches what is true, while those opposed to the Church will always teach that which is a lie.
Remember, a house divied against itself cannot stand.
Either the truth will prevail, or the lies will prevail, but they both cannot live
in the same house.

since you are comming out of athiesm, these contrary thoughts are a normal
expression of evil resisting the light of truth.
Many people have come through this battle victoriously,
but it is a difficult one because this battle is for your very soul.

Keep on fighting to understand what is right and true, and you will make it through!

I'd like to hear more about your journey. I think I'm moving in the other direction despite my hope for renewed faith, and I would like to learn from you about what's drawing you back.

RenatusFeuritExAqua said:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/15/pope-francis-limits-to-freedom-of-expression

As someone returning to the Catholic Church from atheism, things like this concern me. If I'm not mistaken, Catholics are permitted to disagree with the Pope on political issues like this, and in this case I think the Pope is very wrong.

The freedom to offend Catholicism and other religions is the exact same freedom that Catholicism uses when it says homosexual acts are wrong. Many homosexuals will find that teaching offensive. If Pope Francis says he wants freedom of expression not to extend to those who offend the Church, then by extension this is also an argument against the Church being allowed to teach against homosexual acts and other teachings.

Arguing that one type of offensive speech should be illegal implies that any speech found offensive by anybody ought to be illegal because modern governments apply laws equally to everyone. It is for this reason that the Pope should support the legality of the freedom to insult the Church because it is the same freedom by which the Church is allowed to teach things that offend certain groups.

Thoughts? Counterarguments?

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There is a distinction between freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and how one uses these tools for proper civil discourse. There are a lot of things under ones disposal with what the law does not prohibit, but one can get their message across without having to jump towards mockery, childish insults, or profanity, which is what the Pope is insinuating. Respect. Not so much to make freedom of expression illegal.

I'll give you an example. Are you familiar with FEMEN? The anti misogynistic group from Ukraine. They could easily convey their points in constructive dialogue or express themselves in a meaningful way, but they instead choose to make a joke of themselves by protesting bare chested and writing things on themselves. Most attention that is given to them isn't over what message they have to relay but rather what shocking thing they will do next. From being spanked in front of a university building, to stimulating masturbation, to chainsawing a crucifix [Unaware that it was placed there in memory of war victims]. In some cases they were fined and arrested, but overall, they still are able to carry on. I ask, what have they gone on to achieve except to have the spotlight on them for just a few more seconds?

RenatusFeuritExAqua said:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/15/pope-francis-limits-to-freedom-of-expression

As someone returning to the Catholic Church from atheism, things like this concern me. If I'm not mistaken, Catholics are permitted to disagree with the Pope on political issues like this, and in this case I think the Pope is very wrong.

The freedom to offend Catholicism and other religions is the exact same freedom that Catholicism uses when it says homosexual acts are wrong. Many homosexuals will find that teaching offensive. If Pope Francis says he wants freedom of expression not to extend to those who offend the Church, then by extension this is also an argument against the Church being allowed to teach against homosexual acts and other teachings.

Arguing that one type of offensive speech should be illegal implies that any speech found offensive by anybody ought to be illegal because modern governments apply laws equally to everyone. It is for this reason that the Pope should support the legality of the freedom to insult the Church because it is the same freedom by which the Church is allowed to teach things that offend certain groups.

Thoughts? Counterarguments?

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I don't see where the pope was calling for changes in Law. Rather he was speaking of prudence among individuals. Like the example given in the article. Freedom of speech gives you the right to say whatever, but if you decided to insult someone's mother, then don't be surprised if you get a fist in your face.

He is calling for individual prudence here, nothing more than that. We should not be insulting each other's religion, and for that matter whatever temptations one may be dealing with. We should be respecting one another. Prudence.

Erose said:

I don't see where the pope was calling for changes in Law. Rather he was speaking of prudence among individuals. Like the example given in the article. Freedom of speech gives you the right to say whatever, but if you decided to insult someone's mother, then don't be surprised if you get a fist in your face.

He is calling for individual prudence here, nothing more than that. We should not be insulting each other's religion, and for that matter whatever temptations one may be dealing with. We should be respecting one another. Prudence.

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Still it could be seen as a Catholic justification to commit violence when faced with insults or attacks on faith.

RenatusFeuritExAqua said:

Please re-read what I wrote. I'm saying that, while it may be true that the Pope thinks it's wrong to offend the Church, in terms of how democratic governments would apply this legal restriction, the Church would actually suffer because democratic governments would also restrict the Church's right to say anything anyone finds offensive.

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guess what---that's exactly the direction that this world is headed. And we have Jefferson and PC history teachers to thank for that.
and that in turn is why we actually need a theocracy to straighten out all this mess.

FlaviusAetius said:

Still it could be seen as a Catholic justification to commit violence when faced with insults or attacks on faith.

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I disagree. It's actually psychology quite frankly. It's the understanding that if you attack or insult what they cherish most, then don't be surprised if they view them as fighting words.

As Christians we are called to turn the other cheek, but not everyone is Christian; and not every Christian is grown to that level of sanctity. When I was a kid, if you wanted to get into a fight, insult someone's mother, and it was on. Why? Because back then you just didn't do that.

No what Pope Francis is pointing out is normal human behavior.

RenatusFeuritExAqua said:

Please re-read what I wrote. I'm saying that, while it may be true that the Pope thinks it's wrong to offend the Church, in terms of how democratic governments would apply this legal restriction, the Church would actually suffer because democratic governments would also restrict the Church's right to say anything anyone finds offensive.

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actually you are comparing apples and oranges. the Church and the government are two very different governing bodies,
they are based upon differing principles, and they are ruled separately. So what is against the rules of one is accepted by the rules of the other. and vice versa.

If the government wants to apply the rules of government to the church (as they have in the past) then they must first establish the legal jurisdiction to do so.
otherwise it is the Church that has jurisdiction over it's members and staff. This is a century's old arguement and tug-of-war between the two bodies.

RenatusFeuritExAqua said:

That's the same issue. Democratic governments would apply this equally. They would say that someone who insults the Church is on the same level as the Church when it insults gay people or another group.

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and likewise the church would rely upon scripture in both cases, and judge each accordingly.

RenatusFeuritExAqua said:

That's the same issue. Democratic governments would apply this equally. They would say that someone who insults the Church is on the same level as the Church when it insults gay people or another group.

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You are missing the whole point of what he said, and what I said. This isn't a discussing of what governments aught to do or not to do. He (and I) are speaking about individual action and morality.

One of the issues it seems that people have is the failure to see things in the light that isn't political. Not everything the pope says, and quite frankly very little of what the pope says, is political.

Besides that the Church doesn't insult, nor has it insulted gay people.

RenatusFueritExAqua said:

"There is a limit. Every religion has its dignity … in freedom of expression there are limits."

Freedom of expression is granted by the state. Therefore limiting it would be a legal restriction. I hope you're right, but I don't understand what else he could have been referring to.

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He didn't mean that it should be illegal. Sometimes words can cause things to boil over. It doesn't excuse people from doing something over what is said or done, but if people hold something dear to their hearts and you attack it, that a backlash could come of it shouldn't be too surprising.

There are plenty of things that are permissible under secular law. The Church, Pope Francis, the bishops, still ask people to not partake in certain things and show restraint in others.