Does the Bahai' religion...

LoAmmi said:

Kind of semantics here. We call Moses a Jew generally even though that would be wrong. Heck, we call the Levis around today Jews.

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The term Jew is broader than the tribe of Judah, but I think it is restricted to those who descended from the original Kingdom of Judah or whose ancestors were forcibly converted to Judaism during the Maccabean period. Other converts, such as the Kazars would of course, be included as well. Judaism describes the Hebrew religion after the Babylonian Exile. However, the Messianic hope is broader than this. It involves the restoration of those who were exiled by the Assyrians as well, does it not?

smaneck said:

The term Jew is broader than the tribe of Judah, but I think it is restricted to those who descended from the original Kingdom of Judah or whose ancestors were forcibly converted to Judaism during the Maccabean period. Other converts, such as the Kazars would of course, be included as well. Judaism describes the Hebrew religion after the Babylonian Exile. However, the Messianic hope is broader than this. It involves the restoration of those who were exiled by the Assyrians as well, does it not?

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Tell you what, as soon as those exiled return to Judaism, take their proper place, and the Messiah comes we'll talk about who gets what part of land. Fair?

LoAmmi said:

Tell you what, as soon as those exiled return to Judaism, take their proper place, and the Messiah comes we'll talk about who gets what part of land. Fair?

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Well, since the Palestinians are likely descendants of the Northern Kingdom who didn't go into exile and Jews are mostly part of the Kingdom of Judah, whose territory was mostly in Gaza, I figured they could just switch places. Look at it this way, Jews would get Jerusalem, no questions asked. And if they could pull it off, there would be no doubt that the Messianic Age has arrived.

smaneck said:

Well, since the Palestinians are likely descendants of the Northern Kingdom who didn't go into exile and Jews are mostly part of the Kingdom of Judah, whose territory was mostly in Gaza, I figured they could just switch places. Look at it this way, Jews would get Jerusalem, no questions asked. And if they could pull it off, there would be no doubt that the Messianic Age has arrived.

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They're still Muslims. We're not there yet. Besides, that just kicks people out of houses who have lived there their whole lives and give them to people who have been told they used to live there, which, sadly, the Palestinian supports seem to want.

LoAmmi said:

Besides, that just kicks people out of houses who have lived there their whole lives and give them to people who have been told they used to live there

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Palestinians know how that feels.

LoAmmi said:

They're still Muslims. We're not there yet.

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Some are Christians, others Samaritans. But I thought we just had to worship the same God.

LoAmmi said:

The Messiah is the future king of Israel that rules at a time when there is Universal Knowledge of HaShem, Universal Peace, When All Jews live in Israel, and when the Temple is rebuilt. That's pretty much all the information we really have. So what we hope for is the things I listed with the Messiah being the person who will be King when it does.

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It appears that our doctrines coincide about many of the defining characteristics of what we refer to as the Millennium. The idea that this is almost all the information you have about the Messiah is a surprise. I expected more substance than that.

jackcv said:

It appears that our doctrines coincide about many of the defining characteristics of what we refer to as the Millennium. The idea that this is almost all the information you have about the Messiah is a surprise. I expected more substance than that.

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Have you considered that it isn't as important in Judaism as it is in Christianity? Yes, we look forward to the Messiah, but our job is to keep the Torah. Yes, we're curious as to what happens after we die, but our job is to keep the Torah. The Torah and HaShem are important. Wasting our time looking for the Messiah and dreaming what will happen after death isn't. We think this was done on purpose.

LoAmmi said:

Kind of semantics here. We call Moses a Jew generally even though that would be wrong. Heck, we call the Levis around today Jews.

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Semantics is attention to the meaning of words. When we are careless about what a seminal word means, we cannot think with any clarity on that subject.

In my study of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, I have never gotten the idea that Jew and Israelite are synonymous terms. Promises given to the Jews do not necessarily (or even probably) apply to all Israelites, and likewise the other way around, do they?

jackcv said:

Semantics is attention to the meaning of words. When we are careless about what a seminal word means, we cannot think with any clarity on that subject.

In my study of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, I have never gotten the idea that Jew and Israelite are synonymous terms. Promises given to the Jews do not necessarily (or even probably) apply to all Israelites, and likewise the other way around, do they?

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Jew occurs vary rarely in the Tanach. Outside of specific land, I can't think of a promise that would apply specifically to "Jews" that don't apply to all of Israel.

smaneck said:

Yes, Paul saw the Risen Christ. In fact he is the only eyewitness we have in the NT to that. I don't think that makes him a prophet, but I do take what he says about the resurrection seriously.

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We can't let this one go, Smaneck. Paul is the only eyewitness to the risen Christ? Even thinking only of the writers of the NT, Peter and John, at the least are eyewitnesses. Many others are named and mentioned by the various writers - including 500 mentioned by Paul. How do you just write them off?

At the very least, the truth seeker reading these repeated affirmations, has to wonder whether they might, in fact be accurate. Then the scriptures themselves give us clear direction about how to get that question answered conclusively, in fact the only way: the same way that Christ got his answers and direction, that Peter got his knowledge before witnessing the resurrection, that James urged: the prayer of faith, and personal revelation from the Holy Spirit.

LoAmmi said:

Have you considered that it isn't as important in Judaism as it is in Christianity? Yes, we look forward to the Messiah, but our job is to keep the Torah. Yes, we're curious as to what happens after we die, but our job is to keep the Torah. The Torah and HaShem are important. Wasting our time looking for the Messiah and dreaming what will happen after death isn't. We think this was done on purpose.

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The Messiah is honored with the capital M, but he really isn't anything special? I'm sorry, LoAmmi, but that is not believable. What am I missing? The Messiah is somebody special, unique, premier. To blow him off is not credible. I will never (and I don't think most Jews will ever) believe that.

And what was the big deal to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob about millions of children if they were not dreaming what will happen after death? When did Job think he was going to see God "in the flesh...after worms destroy this body"? Where did Elijah ride off to in that the whirlwind after chariots of fire divided him from Elisha? We are here for 3 or 4 score and ten, then spend eternity elsewhere, and the Jews as a people don't care where? I am having difficulty believing that what you are saying here is representative of your people.

jackcv said:

The Messiah is honored with the capital M, but he really isn't anything special? I'm sorry, LoAmmi, but that is not believable. What am I missing? The Messiah is somebody special, unique, premier. To blow him off is not credible. I will never (and I don't think most Jews will ever) believe that.

And what was the big deal to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob about millions of children if they were not dreaming what will happen after death? When did Job think he was going to see God "in the flesh...after worms destroy this body"? Where did Elijah ride off to in that the whirlwind after chariots of fire divided him from Elisha? We are here for 3 or 4 score and ten, then spend eternity elsewhere, and the Jews as a people don't care where? I am having difficulty believing that what you are saying here is representative of your people.

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You are missing the entire mindset I am describing to you and dismissing it as if I'm not saying what I'm saying. If you can't understand the very idea that to Judaism the most important thing for us to do is to keep the Torah and everything after that is secondary, after I've told you multiple times, I have no idea what I can say for you to understand. I feel as if you aren't even trying.

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm


Jewish afterlife beliefs for you.

jackcv said:

The Messiah is honored with the capital M, but he really isn't anything special? I'm sorry, LoAmmi, but that is not believable. What am I missing? The Messiah is somebody special, unique, premier. To blow him off is not credible. I will never (and I don't think most Jews will ever) believe that.

And what was the big deal to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob about millions of children if they were not dreaming what will happen after death? When did Job think he was going to see God "in the flesh...after worms destroy this body"? Where did Elijah ride off to in that the whirlwind after chariots of fire divided him from Elisha? We are here for 3 or 4 score and ten, then spend eternity elsewhere, and the Jews as a people don't care where? I am having difficulty believing that what you are saying here is representative of your people.

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You say your most important concern is to "keep the Torah". What does "keep" mean to you in this context?

jackcv said:

You say your most important concern is to "keep the Torah". What does "keep" mean to you in this context?

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Follow it. To keep to HaShem's laws.

LoAmmi said:

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
Jewish afterlife beliefs for you.

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Well, there are some pleasant surprises here. Thank you.
Now that correlates nicely with Malachi's last words.

That bolded section (all emphasis is mine for clarity of discussion) loses me. What is the soul's "portion"?

in·i·ti·ate verb

1. 1. cause (a process or action) to begin.
   "he proposes to initiate discussions on planning procedures"
   synonyms: begin, start (off), commence;More: institute, inaugurate, launch, instigate, establish, set up, start the ball rolling on; originate, pioneer;
   informalkick off, spark "the government initiated the scheme"
   antonyms: finish
2. 2. admit (someone) into a secret or obscure society or group, typically with a ritual.
   "she had been formally initiated into the sorority"

So, the Anointed One institutes, inaugurates, instigates (?) the preliminary Olam Ha-Ba (what we Christians call the Millennium)? He admits us into the society of God?
LoAmmi, that's pretty special for somebody who isn't. Your characterization of Jewish thought as considering the Messiah as just somebody who almost happens to be there - not anyone worth considering - that's hard to understand.

So your statement that you do not waste your time looking for the Messiah and dreaming what will happen after death, I guess, means you focus on doing good, and leave it to a just God to reward you as His lovingkindness dictates, "the awe of Heaven"?

See, that's what you're not getting. I never said that he wasn't special. But when compared to Christianity, where the Messiah is absolutely central to the religion and could not exist without the Messiah, Judaism does not have such an emphasis on the person. That's the point I was getting at. The Messiah is not central to Judaism nor is it a very important part in my opinion. Keeping the Torah and all that dictates is very important.

Let me put it this way. The goal of a good religious Jew is keeping Torah. It is not believing in the right Messiah or hoping for the afterlife or any of that. A Jew who believed 100% in HaShem but kept 0% of the Torah would be considered an absolute failure as a religious Jew.

LoAmmi said:

Follow it. To keep to HaShem's laws.

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We keep God's laws in anticipation of what? To be His little lambs (barnyard animals) forever? Or to be like Him? Preparing for the one here in this lobby may not prepare one for the other. Maybe the lobby is simply a matriculation exam to see which of these (and other alternative) destinies we individually choose, which we love, which we merit? Here we de-velop, un-veil, dis-close what we are.

Or perhaps, as some people speculate, we are e-volving - spinning off into something that we are not.

Jews, just like Baptists, Mormons and Buddhists, have and are allowed all kinds of personal speculations about eternal destiny. I see no evidence that we are evolving, but lots of evidence that we are being tested on our ability and desire to solve problems, being unveiled, developing what we individually are.

LoAmmi said:

See, that's what you're not getting. I never said that he wasn't special. But when compared to Christianity, where the Messiah is absolutely central to the religion and could not exist without the Messiah, Judaism does not have such an emphasis on the person. That's the point I was getting at. The Messiah is not central to Judaism nor is it a very important part in my opinion. Keeping the Torah and all that dictates is very important.

Let me put it this way. The goal of a good religious Jew is keeping Torah. It is not believing in the right Messiah or hoping for the afterlife or any of that. A Jew who believed 100% in HaShem but kept 0% of the Torah would be considered an absolute failure as a religious Jew.

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As I understand it, the doctrine of the Restored Church of Jesus Christ is just about perfectly congruent with that last paragraph. My own religion is.

Of course, since you believe that Israel as a body is the savior of the world, you sort of usurp the center. More than a little egocentric, but if you live for it, admirable and I'm sure acceptable to HaShem.