Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

Viren · Nov 26, 2015

parousia70 said:
1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of Antichrist, which you have heard shall come, and is now already in the world.

That also includes the believer's flesh because 1John later states. "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life"

Since Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son (John 3:16) that means his Son comes in the flesh of believers.

iamlamad · Nov 26, 2015

parousia70 said:
So the opinions of fallible men outside of scripture are what you hold as authoritative above the actual scriptural teaching on antichrist.
Precisely my point.

Rather, you have created a doctrine from silence, applying the term antichrist to something or someone scripture does not.

If you would let scripture interpret scripture, instead of speculation and assumption to suit your previously held opinion, You would see that St John makes it perfectly clear what that "antichrist that shall come" is:
1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of Antichrist, which you have heard shall come, and is now already in the world.

The Antichrist that shall come of scripture is a spirit of heresy affecting many. Antichrist of scripture is not a single end time despot.

Bah.. And it's common knowledge among Jews that Jesus is not the son of God..

Stick with scripture friend. Abandon the unscriptural "common knowledge" of fallible men.

Does it really matter what the Beast of Revelation 13 is called? He is coming. That is what matters. He and the false prophet will create an image and a mark and demand all worship them or else lose their life. I think that is the point that matters.

Will he be ANTI-Christ? Most certainly he will.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come

Hmmm: many today have heard that Antichrist shall come.

By the way, YOU are a failable man.

BABerean2 · Nov 27, 2015

jerry kelso said:
2. Daniel's 70th week is still future and is known as the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel 12:1-2; Matthew 24:21). This has never happened and is also connected with the end times in the tribulation and the jews and not 70 A.D. Also, the new covenant has not been given to the nation of Israel yet and it is still future. Jeremiah 31:32-33. This is the same as in Hebrews 8:7-13. It could not have happened at 70 A.D. because it never came to fruition because they rejected Christ and he had already prophesied in his days. The new testament itself in Jesus blood still happened but not for the nation of Israel especially in 70 A.D. because they were destroyed as a nation. Paul was after Calvary and was still concerned about his fellow people and their receiving the covenants as the head of the nations and the new covenant because they have to have a holy heart before they can literally rule with Christ in the kingdom. 1948 wasn't it and still isn't because they are still backslidden and many of them are atheists. You are wrong again.

Since the angel Gabriel did not mention a "gap" in the 70 weeks, it ended in the first century.

The time of Jacob's trouble is history.

Daniel 12:1-2 is a reference to the resurrection at Christ's Second Coming.

There is no such thing as "national salvation", since salvation has always occurred on an individual basis. God saved the children of Israel from the army of Egypt, but then destroyed some of those same people during Korah's rebellion against Moses.

The New Covenant was first made with Israelites like the Apostle Paul.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The New Covenant is "now" in effect as found in Hebrews 8:6. It is not waiting on a future fulfillment.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

It is the same covenant found in Romans 11:27. It is now in effect.
All that the modern Jews need to do is accept it.

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The middle wall of separation between all peoples was broken down at the Cross.

Salvation is not dependent on one's bloodline.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?

http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

Viren · Nov 27, 2015

The spirit of the antichrist is the belief that Jesus doesn't come in the flesh, but instead comes in the physical sky riding a literal cloud. Anyone who wants to read David's account of the coming of Christ should read Psalm 18. Remember before Abraham Christ is, he is the resurrection and David called him Lord.

iamlamad · Nov 27, 2015

Viren said:
The spirit of the antichrist is the belief that Jesus doesn't come in the flesh, but instead comes in the physical sky riding a literal cloud. Anyone who wants to read David's account of the coming of Christ should read Psalm 18. Remember before Abraham Christ is, he is the resurrection and David called him Lord.

Readers, this is 100% human imagination - backed by nothing but human reasoning.

Viren · Nov 27, 2015

iamlamad said:
Readers, this is 100% human imagination - backed by nothing but human reasoning.

Actually, I have mentioned a few scriptures. Here's another one.

Matthew 28:18

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always.

Jesus has had authority in heaven and on earth and has been with his servants.

iamlamad · Nov 27, 2015

Viren said:
Actually, I have mentioned a few scriptures. Here's another one.

Matthew 28:18

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always.

Jesus has had authority in heaven and on earth and has been with his servants.

I was wrong. Please forgive me. I should not have said 100% wrong. Part of what you said was right on: David DID call Him Lord. You also wrote, "The spirit of the antichrist is the belief that Jesus doesn't come in the flesh..."

John wrote "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist" So you pretty much quoted John. John also wrote:

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

This gets closer to the real meaning of not confessing that Jesus has come in the flesh. What the Antichrist spirit will never declare is that GOD has come in the flesh as the SON. In other words that the SON is God in the flesh. Satan does not care if anyone believes there was a prophet named Jesus. He hates anyone believing the TRUTH: that God came in the flesh of man. He hates anyone believing that Jesus is not only the Son of God, but a very part of the Godhead.

So let me rephrase what I said: Good job! You were right on! I would have worded it differently, but you did OK.

Jan001 · Nov 29, 2015

ewq1938 said:
no,. It is not the loss of eternal life because they never had eternal life to begin with. The second death is to die and be dead forever. You teach the opposite, that the damned will live forever in the lake of fire.
......
That doesn't mean they don't die the second death. Eternal condemnation simply means they are condemned to their fate (death) forever.

We will agree to disagree.

Jan001 · Nov 29, 2015

ewq1938 said:
None of the above is true. Rev 19 was not fulfilled, the trib never began. History and the lack of these major events prove your theories wrong.

Reading Josephus the Jewish historian's books help us to understand that Revelation 19 was fulfilled in the first century A.D.

Jan001 · Nov 29, 2015

iamlamad said:
You are on a public forum agreeing to disagree. Before you write on a public forum you should be sure what you teach is truth.

James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Surely you should now, NO preterist has EVER been able to point to history and tell us when ANY of the trumpet judgments have come, or the vials. The reason is simple: they are FUTURE events. If I were you, I could do a month long meditation on this word. By the way, MUCH of Revelation is NOT symbolic.

"If the plain sense makes sense, don't look for any other sense, or you will end up with nonsense."

Nonsense runs rampant on these threads.

By the way, as bad as the first century was, it was WORSE for a Jew living in Germany or Poland in say 1943. And Jesus said when days of GT come, they will be worse than any in the world ever. Just to give you a hint, it will be like being a Jew in Berlin in 1943 and being caught: your chances of surviving are ZERO. Only in the GT coming, it will be like that around the world. This time Satan will control the entire world and have authority over it all.

Perhaps it is your own personal interpretations of the Scriptures which are in error and that mine are not.

Jan001 · Nov 29, 2015

iamlamad said:
We will certainly disagree, for almost everything you write is nonsense. You answer everything with human reasoning. May I suggest you camp out on Acts 1 & 2 until you get what they got?

All of Acts was written before 67 A.D.-70 A.D. And your point about Acts 1 and 2 is exactly what?

Jan001 · Nov 29, 2015

redleghunter said:
On Revelation 11 and the measuring of the Temple? That is quite a stretch. Ezekiel also witnessed a measuring of the Temple after it was destroyed by Babylon. John's vision was in Heaven. I think this is a ridiculous stretch to provide evidence for an earlier writing of Revelation.

Ezekiel was commanded to watch the man in heaven measure a future temple because there was no existing temple on earth.

However, John was told to personally measure the existing temple on earth.

Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 do not compute with preterism at all. In both accounts The Lord is destroying the enemies of Jerusalem and not destroying the Jews. So both references must be yet future as God did not deliver the Jews in Jerusalem from the Romans.

How does the above figure into your historical context?

Zechariah 14 -- Zechariah's OT prophecy about a New Jerusalem was fulfilled and it is the NT Church.

Hebrews 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. niv

The New Jerusalem on earth is the Church which came into existence at Pentecost 2000 years ago when the Apostles were empowered to carry out Jesus' command to build His Church.

All people who are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ become new temples of God.

Any new temple built in Jerusalem for inferior animal sacrifices would be a denial of Jesus Christ's perfect sacrifice. This would be a terrible insult to God.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. nkjv

The spiritual enemies of God and His Church are all the people living today who do not believe that Jesus is God and Savior.

In Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14, we see God dealing directly against the nations who are against Jerusalem

In Zechariah 14, we see God dealing directly against the nations/peoples who are against God's people who are the Jews.

In Revelation 19 we see God dealing directly against the nations/peoples who are against God's people/His Church, the followers of Jesus Christ.

There is no distinction between nationalities such as Jew or Gentile in the New Covenant. Either a person is a Christian or else he is not a Christian. A Jewish Christian is one of the people of God. A Gentile Christian is one of the people of God.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. niv

1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. niv

Jan001 · Nov 29, 2015

redleghunter said:
On another matter...Your profile shows you are Catholic. How can you adhere to preterism when being a faithful Catholic?

I am not a preterist.

I believe that we are living in the a thousand years reign right now.

The a thousand years reign is simply the time period between Jesus' first coming and His second coming. Jesus is reigning in heaven over all things in heaven and on earth right now.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, nkjv

All the prophecies you put in the past are claimed by multiple church fathers as yet future. Irenaeus one of the earliest fathers to opine on Revelation and the Sermon on the Mount.

Irenaeus was entitled to teach his own opinion about these topics because there had not been any doctrines about these topics defined at a Church Council. Many church fathers had more pressing things on their minds and so they did not discuss this topic at all.

Jan001 · Nov 29, 2015

parousia70 said:
Absolutely.
I take Irenaeus to task on a whole host of things he was mistaken about.

For example, He taught Jesus lived to be 50 years old. Do you believe he was right about that?

Opinions are simply opinions unless defined by a Church council to be doctrine.

Jan001 · Nov 29, 2015

jerry kelso said:
jan001,

1. Revelation 16-19 past? No! Why? The tribulation is not about the jews alone. 70 A.D. was about the jews alone in reference to their destruction by Rome and not the gathering of the nations. Zechariah 14 shows this in verse 2 which you think is past. Why do you miss this? Because you fail to understand the connection with the restitution of all things with the jews coming back into covenant and not destruction.
70 A.D. was a prophecy of Jesus on Jerusalem and the temple and its destruction because Israel rejected the Messiah and the new covenant.

2. Revelation 16 are the 7 vials which is on the beast kingdom worshippers after the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20 of the martyrs only. It is known as the WRATH OF GOD. It ends up on the fields of Armageddon and not in the city itself of Jerusalem.

3. Revelation 17 is about the Mystery Babylon which deals with the religious system who the 10 horns hate and they kill in the middle of the tribulation from the antichrist who comes up among the 10 horns through the old grecian empire area which covers literal Babylon.

4. This deals with most likely Rome going apostate unless the Vatican moves elsewhere. The whole 10 horn scenario is in Daniel and has nothing to do with Israel alone in 70 A.D. It is a straw man by the RCC to prove all this happened back then and remove Israel from their covenant blessings.

5. Revelation 18 is about literal babylon of which Israel is told to come out of in Jeremiah who was defeated by the Medes and the Persians. There are possibilities of other countries and that is debatable but it could not have happened in 70 A.D. because it is not connected with the full destruction of Israel.

2. Daniel's 70th week is still future and is known as the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel 12:1-2; Matthew 24:21). This has never happened and is also connected with the end times in the tribulation and the jews and not 70 A.D. Also, the new covenant has not been given to the nation of Israel yet and it is still future. Jeremiah 31:32-33. This is the same as in Hebrews 8:7-13. It could not have happened at 70 A.D. because it never came to fruition because they rejected Christ and he had already prophesied in his days. The new testament itself in Jesus blood still happened but not for the nation of Israel especially in 70 A.D. because they were destroyed as a nation. Paul was after Calvary and was still concerned about his fellow people and their receiving the covenants as the head of the nations and the new covenant because they have to have a holy heart before they can literally rule with Christ in the kingdom. 1948 wasn't it and still isn't because they are still backslidden and many of them are atheists. You are wrong again.

3. Rejoicing in heaven wasn't happening after 70 A.D. and the destruction of the elect nation. That is ridiculous.

4. Coming being judgement as in the 2nd coming will be judgement on the kingdoms of the world. The jews will suffer judgement at the hands of the Antichrist and God will purge Israel of 2/3 so the 1/3 can come through the refining power of tribulation. But the purging of Israel comes out in victory which didn't happen in 70 A.D.

5. The 1000 years not being literal and is for this time today is nothing short of ridiculous. This is a straw man and wrong hermeneutic of the RCC to keep Israel out of the picture and put themselves in their place disguised by the RCC being the only church and the false doctrine of Peter's apostolic succession.
It is a fact that at the battle of Armageddon the beast and the false prophet are killed and thrown into the lake of fire at that time (Revelation 19:20).

6. Satan is thrown in the bottomless pit at this time because it is in the context of the martyrs who are resurrected before the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1-2; 16:1-2).

7. Satan is put in the pit so he won't deceive the nations for this specific time. This is not happening now and is a ball face lie by the RCC.

8. The time of the gentiles will not happen until Christ takes the Kingdoms of the world (Revelation 11:15) in the end of the tribulation when the tares and the wheat (Matthew 13) takes place. There will be no absent of the devil deceiving the nations then.

9. The Kingdom of peace in the KoH, the true 1000 years that is literal will be the time of no deceiving by the enemy. It has to happen before he can be loosed for a season. The reason you don't believe this is because you spiritualize the 1000 years.

10. There is no problem equating 1000 years to God for it will be a long time but in fulfillment to the context it is in earthly years and that is a fact you can't dispute.

11. The 1000 years is associated with the martyrs who will rule and reign which is future from their resurrection and there will be a literal 1000 years until the 2nd resurrection which is known as the 2nd death.
Satan loosed from the pit, the rebellion and the 1000 years between the 2 resurrections are all connected and haven't happened today and will not be in the midst of the tribulation but after the end of the tribulation to go into the new kingdom which will be God all in all (1 Corinthians 15:24-28). This has to happen in the period of the 1000 years in order for the son to give over the kingdom back to God the father who gave him the kingdom to begin with. The 1000 years is literal and on earthly time.

12. There is no scripture that implies or plainly says that the beast and the false prophet were even around in 70 A.D. That is a fabrication once again of the RCC. The beast and the false prophet concerns the whole world which is already populated fully and connected not 70 A.D. 70 A.D. was the Roman Empire which was only the civilized world which didn't include the whole world geographically on the earth. It is a straw man of the RCC in the past.

Your agree to disagree is just disagreeing and stating your position. If it is just stating a position one can read history and find that out. Jerry kelso

If you will make just one point in each email I will then address that one point.

redleghunter · Nov 29, 2015

Jan001 said:
Ezekiel was commanded to watch the man in heaven measure a future temple because there was no existing temple on earth.

However, John was told to personally measure the existing temple on earth.

Zechariah 14 -- Zechariah's OT prophecy about a New Jerusalem was fulfilled and it is the NT Church.

Hebrews 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. niv

The New Jerusalem on earth is the Church which came into existence at Pentecost 2000 years ago when the Apostles were empowered to carry out Jesus' command to build His Church.

All people who are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ become new temples of God.

Any new temple built in Jerusalem for inferior animal sacrifices would be a denial of Jesus Christ's perfect sacrifice. This would be a terrible insult to God.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. nkjv

The spiritual enemies of God and His Church are all the people living today who do not believe that Jesus is God and Savior.

In Zechariah 14, we see God dealing directly against the nations/peoples who are against God's people who are the Jews.

In Revelation 19 we see God dealing directly against the nations/peoples who are against God's people/His Church, the followers of Jesus Christ.

There is no distinction between nationalities such as Jew or Gentile in the New Covenant. Either a person is a Christian or else he is not a Christian. A Jewish Christian is one of the people of God. A Gentile Christian is one of the people of God.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. niv

1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. niv

Am I to assume you believe the second physical advent of Christ is time past?

Your comments above impress so.

I gather you realize the measurements of the Temple John is told to do differed from the dimensions of the Herodian built temple?

This is the issue with preterism. It is literal about John measuring a temple even though he was in spirit. Yet the defense of a literal physical Jerusalem in Zechariah is somehow spiritualized as church.

In Revelation 19 Christ comes with His saints to destroy the nations. Not Israel in 70AD.

The beast and false prophet are dealt with in Revelation 19. Rome wins in 70 AD.

Preterism has no answer for this but to ignore Revelation 19.

Unless like the Catholic church you believe Revelation 19 is yet future?

ewq1938 · Nov 29, 2015

Jan001 said:
Reading Josephus the Jewish historian's books help us to understand that Revelation 19 was fulfilled in the first century A.D.

I don't recall him or anyone writing that Jesus came back with an army of angels and resurrected saints and slaughtered an enemy army.

Here is the passage in case you forget what is written:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

So you think the second coming and this war happened and historians wrote about it? Can you quote them please?

ewq1938 · Nov 29, 2015

Jan001 said:
I am not a preterist.

Preterism believes Rev 19 has been fulfilled just as you do.

BABerean2 · Nov 29, 2015

Jan001 said:
Hebrews 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. niv
The New Jerusalem on earth is the Church which came into existence at Pentecost 2000 years ago when the Apostles were empowered to carry out Jesus' command to build His Church.

All people who are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ become new temples of God.

You are most certainly on the right track overall...
We are the temples of God, since the Holy Ghost is inside of us.

However, Paul also said there is a Jerusalem that is now above.

It will come down at Christ's Second Coming.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Heb_11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

.

iamlamad · Nov 29, 2015

Jan001 said:
Perhaps it is your own personal interpretations of the Scriptures which are in error and that mine are not.

Not much of a chance. Not when you make a gathering into a revelation! Not when you make Rev. 19 HISTORY.

Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

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