Is Christianty elitist?

Gumph

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IS it a "difficult process?"

I don't see any reason to conclude what you have. What makes it "elitist" merely because you have to really commit yourself instead of being only a "fair weather" follower or something like that? You don't have to pass some entrance examination, be voted upon by someone, pay membership dues, or etc., and you also don't have great honor conferred upon you as a result of making your commitment.

Both the words "difficult" and "elite" appear to be inappropriate when we look closely at the proposition.

Yes it is extremely difficult. One has to have Faith. There are no physical interactions. We have to rely on the words of other men. Their words are difficult to understand .....

I may have chosen the word "elitist" badly. Perhaps "select few" is a better way of phrasing it?

What do you mean when you refer to the "proposition"
 
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Gumph

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i fail to see how scripture, such as the scripture i posted above, can give anyone a headache.

Its a generalisation about the language used in the bible. In your quote:

"Come unto me" means what? Walk over, sign a form, register?
"Heavy laden" does anyone really speak like that anymore. Laden with what?
" Take my yoke upon you" Huh?
" Lowly in heart" There must be a better word or phrase for this.
"rest unto your souls" I have no idea.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but most of you read the bible regularly and discuss the meanings, so it probably comes easy to you. For others, such as myself, not so much. It simply does not help me when the answer to my question is a quote from scripture. You are welcome to quote anyway as it may help others who read this thread, but it doesn't help me. Sorry.
 
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brinny

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Its a generalisation about the language used in the bible. In your quote:

"Come unto me" means what? Walk over, sign a form, register?
"Heavy laden" does anyone really speak like that anymore. Laden with what?
" Take my yoke upon you" Huh?
" Lowly in heart" There must be a better word or phrase for this.
"rest unto your souls" I have no idea.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but most of you read the bible regularly and discuss the meanings, so it probably comes easy to you. For others, such as myself, not so much. It simply does not help me when the answer to my question is a quote from scripture. You are welcome to quote anyway as it may help others who read this thread, but it doesn't help me. Sorry.

Did you ever read Shakespeare?
 
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Albion

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Yes it is extremely difficult. One has to have Faith.
Why would you consider that to be difficult?

There are no physical interactions. We have to rely on the words of other men. Their words are difficult to understand .....
Isn't that true of just about any instruction manual?

I may have chosen the word "elitist" badly. Perhaps "select few" is a better way of phrasing it?

What do you mean when you refer to the "proposition"

'Select few' would be better IMO. As for the "proposition," I was referring to this:

Is it really necessary to make the search so difficult?
I'm just not sure that that's the way to look at the matter, but I guess there's no reason to quarrel over it. It seems to me that one reply could be, "Anything worth having is worth a little effort and usually requires it."

I can mow the lawn with little training, but if I want to be a diamond cutter, I'll need some education in how to do it. I never think of that as a failing on the part of that trade.
 
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talitha

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It seems to me that only some people are successful in finding or discovering God. Others fail in their search, are still looking, have given up looking, have found something else or never began in the first place. This latter group seems to far outnumber those who have been successful.

Is this not a cause for concern to Christians, that so many others fail?
Is it really necessary to make the search so difficult?
In asking these questions, it seems to me that you believe Christians invented Christianity. In fact, we did not. We are simply the beneficiaries of it. Christianity is nothing more or less than the ultimate truth. Once we are confronted with it, we can choose to live it or to live a lie. That is true for everyone. Living a lie is like avoiding responsibility - it's more comfortable, except for that little nagging knowledge in the back corner of our minds that we are in the wrong.
 
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Gumph

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Did you ever read Shakespeare?

Yes I had the misfortune of having the works of Shakespeare translated into English for me by my high school teachers.
Its pretty much the same problem as with scripture.

Why would you consider that to be difficult?

Isn't that true of just about any instruction manual?

'Select few' would be better IMO. As for the "proposition," I was referring to this:

I'm just not sure that that's the way to look at the matter, but I guess there's no reason to quarrel over it. It seems to me that one reply could be, "Anything worth having is worth a little effort and usually requires it."

I can mow the lawn with little training, but if I want to be a diamond cutter, I'll need some education in how to do it. I never think of that as a failing on the part of that trade.

Faith in the religious sense is difficult for the likes of me because it requires me to believe in something without proof.

Lol, clever chirp about the instruction manuals. However if we carry on with that analogy, the TV instruction manual has a TV that comes with it. I can use all 5 of my senses on it. The subject of the bible cannot be sensed using any of them. Yes I rely on the writing of other men, but no longer if steps 1 through 3 don't produce results.

The diamond trade is not failing because it is a specialist trade and requires few devotees.
The Heaven or Hell trade is failing because only specialists (small group) are taking the right path. Perhaps God is satisfied with the low success rate? I'm not judging, just wondering.

In asking these questions, it seems to me that you believe Christians invented Christianity. In fact, we did not. We are simply the beneficiaries of it. Christianity is nothing more or less than the ultimate truth. Once we are confronted with it, we can choose to live it or to live a lie. That is true for everyone. Living a lie is like avoiding responsibility - it's more comfortable, except for that little nagging knowledge in the back corner of our minds that we are in the wrong.

Two problems:
1) Many people are never confronted by Christianity.
2) So many people who are confronted with it choose not to follow.
Should this be a concern, either from a design point of view or from a message point of view. Or is it acceptable?
 
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talitha

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Two problems:
1) Many people are never confronted by Christianity.
2) So many people who are confronted with it choose not to follow.
Should this be a concern, either from a design point of view or from a message point of view. Or is it acceptable?
1) Before becoming a Christian, your concern needs to only be yourself and your relationship to to the Truth. As Christians, we have a responsibility to obey what the Lord tells us to do - which very likely at some point will be to lead others to the Truth. Sitting around thinking about those who are never confronted by Christianity (at this point, that would be a small minority in the world, I'd think) will do no one any good.
2) That is true. People are very apt to choose the most "comfortable" route..... (see above)
Again, Christians did not design Christianity, nor do we dictate what our message is to be. Those decisions are above our pay grade, so to speak.
 
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brinny

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brinny said: ↑
Did you ever read Shakespeare?

Yes I had the misfortune of having the works of Shakespeare translated into English for me by my high school teachers.
Its pretty much the same problem as with scripture.

Are you saying that Shakespeare is impossible to understand?
 
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Albion

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Are you saying that Shakespeare is impossible to understand?
I think it was that this might require some effort; and the point of the discussion amounts to "If God wants us to believe in him, why doesn't he just make it impossible not to?"
 
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brinny

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I think it was that this might require some effort; and the point of the discussion amounts to "If God wants us to believe in him, why doesn't he just make it impossible not to?"

Interesting...

Thanks.
 
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Gumph

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Are you saying that Shakespeare is impossible to understand?

Nope, just difficult.

I think it was that this might require some effort; and the point of the discussion amounts to "If God wants us to believe in him, why doesn't he just make it impossible not to?"

Nicely put.
 
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brinny

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oi_antz

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Because they don't believe he is here. He seems to be hiding, or does not exist.

I haven't assumed its difficult, I have personally found it to be extremely difficult:
- He has never communicated directly with me.
- I cannot get a personal relationship going with him.
- I have no personal experience of him.

Then there is also the matter of most people never finding him. If the success rate is less than 50%, what other answer could there be other than that the task is too difficult?
Yeah the bit that I objected to is not that it isn't difficult to know Him, but that you said it is difficult to find Him. He is right there, everywhere, all the time. Rather what is difficult to find is our comfort in approaching Him. It is us who puts Him out of our life. The difficult part for us in this, typically, is accepting the truth that we know, and just as the writers of the bible say too, we must change our life to live His way. That is what stops us from opening the door. I say this also knowing that it isn't something we will struggle with only once in a lifetime, but as even Jesus instructed us when we pray: "do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil".
 
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oi_antz

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ViaCrucis

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Thank you. I must admit to not knowing too much about Lutheran interpretations.

The question however does not change in essence. It just becomes: Why do so few people receive the word of God? Why does he make his message so unclear and hidden, so that so few receive it?

In Lutheranism we have something called the Crux Theologorum, literally "the Cross of the Theologian", that is, the burden that the theologian must bear. It refers to an unanswerable paradox, namely: If it is the will of God that all be saved, and salvation is only by grace through faith (that is, from God alone apart from our will or effort), then has God then chosen actually to damn some? Not at all, for again, God desires that all be saved? Why then is not everyone saved? Because some choose their own destruction, preferring this over the life of God.

If these ideas seem to be in conflict and, in fact, contradict then you're right. That's the Crux Theologorum. It's the fact that we read in Scripture conflicting statements which, rather than choosing one over the other as Calvinists and Arminians do, we assert both are true, but do not try to reconcile them together or explain how they can be true together. It remains a paradox and a contradiction.

Because God has not revealed all things to us, we don't have all the answers. Often the answer to many tough theological questions is "I haven't the foggiest."

Which is also why we shouldn't be dogmatic in certain areas: We confess that salvation is found in Christ alone on account of Christ alone, by God's grace alone, through faith alone which He alone gives; this faith comes through the Means of Grace, His Word and Sacraments not of ourselves and our own strength. We confess this; but to confess the opposite--that all who have not heard God's Word, all who have not received His Sacramental gifts, are immediately damned--we cannot say this. Luther, for example, states that we cannot and do not say that unbaptized children are damned, even though we confess that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Because the ordinary and normative means does not exclude the extraordinary and the absolute ability of God to work and to act beyond and outside of the ordinary as suits His purposes without having told us. So we must instead confess what is revealed, and admit and entrust to God's judgment and mercy all else.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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oi_antz

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Before deciding how to live, one first has to believe that that decision is even necessary in the first place.
Do you look around you and not see that human's desires being unrestrained are a bad thing?
Why did he create us with urges and desires to live a certain way and then instruct us to live another way. To me that makes things unnecessarily difficult.
I expect to find there is a good reason for every urge and desire, and that when it is found to have become a problem, it is due to some person having chosen to gratify their urge and desire when it impacts someone else in an unwelcome way. The basic problem is then not the urge or the desire, but the person's decision to act immorally. In this way, selfishness is seen to be the real problem, not the desire. Of course, if you think this is not always the case, I'd certainly be interested to consider an example!
 
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oi_antz

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Ok, not impossible, but difficult....

the question is...

is it worth it?
Actually, I reckon you should help him with that. I'm also at a bit at a loss to observe it's value in context, TBH. What sort of image does it give you, that you can describe to Gumph, when Jesus appeals to us who "labour and are heavy laden" so that He may "give rest for our soul"?
 
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brinny

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Actually, I reckon you should help him with that. I'm also at a bit at a loss to observe it's value in context, TBH. What sort of image does it give you, that you can describe to Gumph, when Jesus appeals to us who "labour and are heavy laden" so that He may "give rest for our soul"?

labor
heavy-laden
rest
for the soul

Ok, where's the difficulty?

Why don't you take a shot at it?

What does this conjure up for you?
 
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Job8

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So why did he create most people with a pride level that prevents them from being saved?
The issue is more related to the fact that God allowed Adam and Eve to produce a human race that was infected with the virus of sin, so that He could display His grace and mercy through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The Gospel is designed to show men that without Christ they have no hope of ever approaching God or entering Heaven or having fellowship with Him.

But God requires all men to come "as little children" by putting aside their pride and self-righteousness and seeing themselves as God sees them -- sinners on their way to Hell. That means truly humbling themselves before God as abject and wretched sinners in need of the Saviour. There are few who are willing to accept God's verdict, which means coming to the end of themselves. Thus only relatively few will be saved. Others will resort to philosophy, false science, false religions, or anything other than the Cross of Christ -- a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.
 
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oi_antz

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labor
heavy-laden
rest
for the soul

Ok, where's the difficulty?

Why don't you take a shot at it?

What does this conjure up for you?
It seems to me, this describes people who care and push against the tide, much like a vegan does. That even though they work so hard for what they know is good, yet it is a heavy burden because nobody helps them and everyone makes them work harder. But that's just what I'm seeing. I only suggested that since you mentioned it and OP said he couldn't understand it, maybe you'd be able to explain a bit more to him why you thought it might be helpful to him. I wonder if this is similar to the idea you get when you read this.
 
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