This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

FreeGrace2 said:

Please cite the website that indicates such nonsense because I don't believe it.

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Like I said, I have never heard of this and all I know is from you and a quick 3 minute read of an article on got questions.org.

FreeGrace2 said:

There will be great suffering for the believer who rebels. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?Consider the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5. He was turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. How does that sound like no big deal?

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I fully agree with you on 1 Cor 5

FreeGrace2 said:

I'm betting you only read websites that disagreed with the theology. They have totally and grossed misrepresented the theology. Not like that's anything new, though.

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Stated above

FreeGrace2 said:

Here are the basics of free grace theology:

1. Jesus Christ died for everyone.
2. Man is free to either accept God's gift of eternal life or reject it. (free will)
3. Once saved, always saved. (eternal security)
4. Rebellion/disobedience/apostacy/etc will face God's hand of discipline, which can be extreme, to the point of death. (1 Jn 5:16)
5. A life of obedience and faithfulness will be blessed in time and rewarded in eternity.

Which of these points would you disagree with on the basis of your knowledge of Scripture?

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What do I disagree with?
1. Jesus died for every one (disagree)
2. Free will (agree) but have a different definition on free will then you.
3. Eternal security (agree)
4. Discipline to the point of death (agree)
5. A life of obedience and faithfulness will be rewarded (agree)

FreeGrace2 said:

Why did you stop reading after the word "grace"? We are saved THROUGH FAITH, which has been my point all along. iow, faith must be present before we are saved. Same as faith is present before we are regenerated.

Apparently you don't understand what "through faith" means then. If faith isn't present, one CANNOT be saved, or regenerated.

And I've shown it to be true. THROUGH FAITH means just that.

I'm sure every hardcore Calvinist will agree with you. And everyone else who doesn't understand what "through" means.

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Somewhere along the line you developed the idea that people who espouse regeneration before faith deny that salvation comes through faith. Where on earth did you get such an idea?

No faith = no salvation (justification). No one including John Calvin and R.C. Sproul say otherwise.

That first part of the last sentence in the first paragraph above is correct and testified to by scripture. Then you add the last part of the sentence as if they were the same thing entirely. The last half of the sentence is what you need to prove. The first half is crystal clear in scripture.

The second paragraph is the same idea. I do understand what "through faith" means. One is born into the Kingdom of God through faith. Then you add your opinion which, IMO, is wrong and needs to be proved by something more substantial than Acts 2:5 and 8.

One is born in due time because he has had life generated by a secret act of his father before that. Jesus made that point perfectly clear. We see the results of the wind's activities (the Holy Spirit's work). But that is not the work itself. Jesus could not have given us better illustrations than the two He gave to us. The invisible work of the Spirit appears in due time in a visible manifestation of that invisible work. (By grace you have been saved, through faith. It is not the result of works lest any man should boast.)

People are justified through faith. They are not regenerated through faith. But then - the opposite of that opinion is what you are trying to prove. You'll have to do better than Acts 2:5&8 in my opinion and in that of most reading your presentation here.

Every "hardcore Calvinist" will agree that justification comes through faith. They will not agree that regeneration comes through faith - because the scripture teaches otherwise.

Marvin Knox said:

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

Call it regeneration. Call it the internal call. Call it whatever you want to call it.

It is still crystal clear that God is the one who worked mysteriously within Lydia so that she would respond to the gospel.

The same is true for all of us.

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Isaiah55:6 said:

Like I said, I have never heard of this and all I know is from you and a quick 3 minute read of an article on got questions.org.

Click to expand...

That one article was hostile. Please read from actual freee grace sites.

I fully agree with you on 1 Cor 5

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What do I disagree with?
1. Jesus died for every one (disagree)
2. Free will (agree) but have a different definition on free will then you.
3. Eternal security (agree)
4. Discipline to the point of death (agree)
5. A life of obedience and faithfulness will be rewarded (agree)

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We're not that far apart, then.

How do you define free will?

Marvin Knox said:

Somewhere along the line you developed the idea that people who espouse regeneration before faith deny that salvation comes through faith. Where on earth did you get such an idea?

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From your own post, where you stopped at the word "grace" in Eph 2:8, thereby avoiding and dodging the WHEN of regeneration.

No faith = no salvation (justification). No one including John Calvin and R.C. Sproul say otherwise.

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And not the issue here. The WHOLE issue is WHEN regeneration occurs; before or after faith. Eph 2:8 says after.

That first part of the last sentence in the first paragraph above is correct and testified to by scripture. Then you add the last part of the sentence as if they were the same thing entirely. The last half of the sentence is what you need to prove. The first half is crystal clear in scripture.

Click to expand...

It was proven in v.5. By the parenthesis, which defines "made alive". If that is not correct, then someone needs to refute my claim exegetically.

The second paragraph is the same idea. I do understand what "through faith" means.

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Well, your post ignored that part, which is the part which informs us of WHEN regeneration occurs.

One is born into the Kingdom of God through faith. Then you add your opinion which, IMO, is wrong and needs to be proved by something more substantial than Acts 2:5 and 8.

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I didn't add any opinion. Please demonstrate how the parenthesis (I know the Greeks didn't use parentheses) doesn't equate with "made alive" in the first part of v.5.

One is born in due time because he has had life generated by a secret act of his father before that. Jesus made that point perfectly clear.

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Where did Jesus make that point "perfectly clear"? Unless there is a verse that supports your claim, I will not believe it.

We see the results of the wind's activities (the Holy Spirit's work). But that is not the work itself. Jesus could not have given us better illustrations than the two He gave to us. The invisible work of the Spirit appears in due time in a visible manifestation of that invisible work. (By grace you have been saved, through faith. It is not the result of works lest any man should boast.)

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The phrase "having been saved" in v.5 and the phrase "made alive" are about the same thing.

People are justified through faith. They are not regenerated through faith.

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According to Paul, they are made alive WHEN they are saved. From v.5.

But then - the opposite of that opinion is what you are trying to prove.

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Right. But not from opinion. From what Paul wrote. v.5 equates "made alive" with "having been saved". The phrase "having been saved" explains what "made alive" means. They aren't 2 separate unrelated things.

You'll have to do better than Acts 2:5&8 in my opinion and in that of most reading your presentation here.

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You seem to have a lot of opinion. I've laid out my view from what Scripture says. If my view is wrong, please lay out your refutation, which means showing me that the phrase "having been saved" doesn't explain "made alive" in v.5.

Every "hardcore Calvinist" will agree that justification comes through faith. They will not agree that regeneration comes through faith - because the scripture teaches otherwise.

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So, where is the Scripture that teaches that regeneration precedes faith? Calvinists are quick to make that claim, but fail to prove it from Scripture.

On the eternal security of the believer who is born of God.

In his commentary on 1 John 3:8-10 Calvin says,
"John (the apostle) denied that any one belongs to Christ except he who is righteous and shews himself to be such by his works; ... Hence two conclusions are to be drawn, that those in whom sin reigns cannot be reckoned among the members of Christ, and that they can by no means belong to his body ... all who are born of God lead a righteous and a holy life, because the Spirit of God restrains the lusting of sin ... John not only shews how efficaciously God works once in man, but plainly declares that the Spirit continues his grace in us to the last, so that inflexible perseverance is added to newness of life. Let us not, then, imagine with the Sophists that it is some neutral movement, which leaves men free either to follow or to reject; but let us know that our own hearts are so ruled by God's Spirit, that they constantly cleave to righteousness ... John declares that all who do not live righteously are not of God, because all those whom God calls, he regenerates by his Spirit. Hence newness of life is a perpetual evidence of divine adoption." John Calvin

http://bcbsr.com/topics/etsec.html
And some more on Free Grace theology.

Part VI: Free Gracers
There's also another theological position which begs for comment, namely Free Grace Theology. These people believe in eternal security, but unlike myself are more in line with those others I mention above who trivialize the effect of regeneration. Thus they would say that a person may come to genuine faith in Christ and be saved, but continue to live a lifestyle of sin and or fall away from the faith, but still maintain their salvation status. These along with the others deny that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." and consequently deny that "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." The Bible says, "everyone born of God overcomes the world."1 John 5:4 Does EVERYONE born of God overcome the world? I say, Yes, but not according to all these other people I've written about. Does "overcoming" involve behavior? It certain does. Read the first three chapters of Revelation where the word is used abundantly. Or better yet Rev 21:7,8"He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."The "But" indicates overcoming involves the opposite type of behavior spoken of those who end up in the lake of fire.

Furthermore verses which diagnose a person's salvation status based upon their behavior have really no place in Free Grace theology. Consider 1Cor 6:9,10 which I mentioned previously, or like passages which mention a list of characteristics of those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, such as Gal 5:19-21 which ends "those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." When "push comes to shove", Free Gracers end up advocating a puratory scenario to explain such verses. And to be saved from such a purgatory scenario they end up with much the same position as the legalists to be saved from such a scenario. You take for example Witness Lee's Local Church, which advocates Free Grace Theology, one of their theological leaders, Watchman Nee writes the following, "If a person has become a Christian but his hands or feet sin all the time, he will suffer the punishment of the eternal fire in the kingdom of the heavens. He will not suffer this punishment eternally, but will suffer it only in the age of the kingdom" "The Gospel of God, Volume 3" pg 443 "Age of the kingdom", but the way is 1000 years. So they're alleging there are geniune believers in Christ who will suffer in the eternal fire for 1000 years. Not all that much different than Catholicism on that point as I see it.

Thus Free Grace Grace theology has not only a deficient concept of the effect regeneration and sanctification has on a person's behavior, but more significantly is deficient in its concept of being forgiven of sin and saved from God's wrath.

For more on Free Grace Theology see http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/freegrace.html

FreeGrace2 said:

From your own post, where you stopped at the word "grace" in Eph 2:8, thereby avoiding and dodging the WHEN of regeneration.

And not the issue here. The WHOLE issue is WHEN regeneration occurs; before or after faith. Eph 2:8 says after.

It was proven in v.5. By the parenthesis, which defines "made alive". If that is not correct, then someone needs to refute my claim exegetically.

Well, your post ignored that part, which is the part which informs us of WHEN regeneration occurs.

I didn't add any opinion. Please demonstrate how the parenthesis (I know the Greeks didn't use parentheses) doesn't equate with "made alive" in the first part of v.5.

Where did Jesus make that point "perfectly clear"? Unless there is a verse that supports your claim, I will not believe it.

The phrase "having been saved" in v.5 and the phrase "made alive" are about the same thing.

According to Paul, they are made alive WHEN they are saved. From v.5.

Right. But not from opinion. From what Paul wrote. v.5 equates "made alive" with "having been saved". The phrase "having been saved" explains what "made alive" means. They aren't 2 separate unrelated things.

You seem to have a lot of opinion. I've laid out my view from what Scripture says. If my view is wrong, please lay out your refutation, which means showing me that the phrase "having been saved" doesn't explain "made alive" in v.5.

So, where is the Scripture that teaches that regeneration precedes faith? Calvinists are quick to make that claim, but fail to prove it from Scripture.

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Here is the entire passage.

"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God Ephesians 2:5-8

This is not a hard passage to understand.

Paul is simply telling us that when we were dead God saved us. He did so by making us alive and justifying us before Him - placing us in the same position occupied by His Son.

It tells us of God's reason for doing so.

It stresses the fact that we received this salvation as a gift from God and that it wasn't because of anything we did to deserve it.

Our salvation comes through faith - something that any believer knows from scripture. We are justified by faith and not regeneration or any other theological concept.

It does not say that we are regenerated through faith - no mater how many times you say it.

In fact the scriptures tell us elsewhere that we could not even exercise saving faith in our natural state. We must be made alive so that we can understand and respond to the gospel.

I cannot refute your claim exegetically. Nor is it incumbent on me to do so. It is you who are making the claim that faith precedes regeneration and that the verses referred to teach that unambiguously. You must show where the passage teaches that clearly.

Clearly it does not teach that clearly. If it did, I (and I would think any Calvinist) would acknowledge that fact.

Being "saved" includes the process of regeneration, enlightenment, justification through faith, glorification and a number of other theological concepts.

Being saved is not only regeneration.

Because the scriptures say that we are saved "through faith" is no reason to claim that they teach that we are regenerated "through faith".

It simply does not teach that.

Now - you may disagree that the scriptures teach regeneration before faith.

What I have challenged you with is the fact that this passage does not teach that they occur at the same time.

sdowney717 said:

And some more on Free Grace theology.

Part VI: Free Gracers
There's also another theological position which begs for comment, namely Free Grace Theology. These people believe in eternal security, but unlike myself are more in line with those others I mention above who trivialize the effect of regeneration.

Click to expand...

This opinion (trivializing the effect of regeneration) is false. Those who claim that once saved (regenerated) always obedient cannot prove their claim. In fact, counting ALL the warnings in the NT prove that believers are quite capable of protracted sin. We clearly see this fact in the life of King Saul. His life was so miserable that the Bible says that God killed him for seeking a medium in 1 Chron 10:14, yet Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day per 1 Sam 28:19. We all know where Samuel went after death; paradise. Saul joined him.

This refutes the false doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Along with all the warning passages.

Thus they would say that a person may come to genuine faith in Christ and be saved, but continue to live a lifestyle of sin and or fall away from the faith, but still maintain their salvation status.

Click to expand...

That is claimed only because of OSAS.

These along with the others deny that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

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Have you been born of God? Do you still continue to sin? The Bible does NOT teach sinless perfection, once a believer. So either you are not born of God, or you continue to sin. And fail to understand 1 Jn 3:9.

and consequently deny that "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God

Click to expand...

Please check out the Greek. The word "a child" does NOT appear in the original. So, to "not be of God" only means is not doing according to God.

nor is anyone who does not love his brother." The Bible says, "everyone born of God overcomes the world."1 John 5:4 Does EVERYONE born of God overcome the world? I say, Yes, but not according to all these other people I've written about. Does "overcoming" involve behavior? It certain does. Read the first three chapters of Revelation where the word is used abundantly.

Click to expand...

This is a failure to properly divide the Word of Truth. In 1 Jn, the BASIS of being on 'overcomer' is our faith. 1 Jn 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

The first 3 chapters of Revelation base overcoming on behavior, not our faith.

Furthermore verses which diagnose a person's salvation status based upon their behavior have really no place in Free Grace theology.

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Because the Bible doesn't either. King Saul as a prime example.

Consider 1Cor 6:9,10 which I mentioned previously, or like passages which mention a list of characteristics of those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, such as Gal 5:19-21 which ends "those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." When "push comes to shove", Free Gracers end up advocating a puratory scenario to explain such verses.

Click to expand...

This is simply a LIE. The notion of purgatory has NO PLACE in free grace theology. I DARE you to cite any free grace website where that notion is taught. I don't expect any response to this request.

In fact, there are 3 parallel passages about inheritance and the kingdom, but you only noted 2. Eph 5:5 says this: For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Note that behavior is noted just like in the other 2 passages in 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5. But Eph 5:5 says "has no inheritance IN the kingdom". iow, they will be IN the kingdom, but have no inheritance IN the kingdom.

Therefore, believers who live like that described in all 3 passages will lose their inheritance IN the kingdom. This refers to rewards, of which all the warning passages are about; not loss of salvation as the Arminians claim.

And to be saved from such a purgatory scenario they end up with much the same position as the legalists to be saved from such a scenario. You take for example Witness Lee's Local Church, which advocates Free Grace Theology, one of their theological leaders, Watchman Nee writes the following, "If a person has become a Christian but his hands or feet sin all the time, he will suffer the punishment of the eternal fire in the kingdom of the heavens. He will not suffer this punishment eternally, but will suffer it only in the age of the kingdom" "The Gospel of God, Volume 3" pg 443 "Age of the kingdom", but the way is 1000 years. So they're alleging there are geniune believers in Christ who will suffer in the eternal fire for 1000 years. Not all that much different than Catholicism on that point as I see it.

Click to expand...

This nonsense does NOT represent the vast majority of those in free grace theology.

Thus Free Grace Grace theology has not only a deficient concept of the effect regeneration and sanctification has on a person's behavior, but more significantly is deficient in its concept of being forgiven of sin and saved from God's wrath.

Click to expand...

Simply quoting one over the edge nut does not apply to all of free grace theology. I'm sure there are some real nutty types in Calvinism as well, those you would NEVER associate with.

Marvin Knox said:

Here is the entire passage.

"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God Ephesians 2:5-8

This is not a hard passage to understand.

Paul is simply telling us that when we were dead God saved us. He did so by making us alive and justifying us before Him - placing us in the same position occupied by His Son.

It tells us of God's reason for doing so.

It stresses the fact that we received this salvation as a gift from God and that it wasn't because of anything we did to deserve it.

Our salvation comes through faith - something that any believer knows from scripture. We are justified by faith and not regeneration or any other theological concept.

It does not say that we are regenerated through faith - no mater how many times you say it.

Click to expand...

All you're doing is talking AROUND the issue.

Please explain what the parenthesis relates to in v.5. I say it relates to the phrase "made alive".

In fact the scriptures tell us elsewhere that we could not even exercise saving faith in our natural state. We must be made alive so that we can understand and respond to the gospel.

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Please support these claims with Scripture.

I cannot refute your claim exegetically.

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Of course not. It is a solid claim.

Nor is it incumbent on me to do so.

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Because you can't.

It is you who are making the claim that faith precedes regeneration and that the verses referred to teach that unambiguously. You must show where the passage teaches that clearly.

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I have done that and you have dodged that.

Clearly it does not teach that clearly. If it did, I (and I would think any Calvinist) would acknowledge that fact.

Click to expand...

Please explain the parenthesis in v.5.

Being "saved" includes the process of regeneration, enlightenment, justification through faith, glorification and a number of other theological concepts.

Being saved is not only regeneration.

Click to expand...

So? the point is about 2 phrases in v.5; "made alive" and "having been saved". Did Paul equate them or not? Explain your answer.

Because the scriptures say that we are saved "through faith" is no reason to claim that they teach that we are regenerated "through faith".

Click to expand...

Then explain the parenthesis in v.5 and what it refers to in the verse.

It simply does not teach that.

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It simply does.

Now - you may disagree that the scriptures teach regeneration before faith.

What I have challenged you with is the fact that this passage does not teach that they occur at the same time.

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I agree that they don't teach that they occur at the same time. 1 Jn 5:1 does that.

Please stick with the issue at hand. Eph 2:5 equates "made alive" with "having been saved". Prove that it does not do that.

FreeGrace2 said:

This opinion (trivializing the effect of regeneration) is false. Those who claim that once saved (regenerated) always obedient cannot prove their claim. In fact, counting ALL the warnings in the NT prove that believers are quite capable of protracted sin. We clearly see this fact in the life of King Saul. His life was so miserable that the Bible says that God killed him for seeking a medium in 1 Chron 10:14, yet Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day per 1 Sam 28:19. We all know where Samuel went after death; paradise. Saul joined him.

This refutes the false doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Along with all the warning passages.


That is claimed only because of OSAS.


Have you been born of God? Do you still continue to sin? The Bible does NOT teach sinless perfection, once a believer. So either you are not born of God, or you continue to sin. And fail to understand 1 Jn 3:9.


Please check out the Greek. The word "a child" does NOT appear in the original. So, to "not be of God" only means is not doing according to God.


This is a failure to properly divide the Word of Truth. In 1 Jn, the BASIS of being on 'overcomer' is our faith. 1 Jn 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

The first 3 chapters of Revelation base overcoming on behavior, not our faith.


Because the Bible doesn't either. King Saul as a prime example.


This is simply a LIE. The notion of purgatory has NO PLACE in free grace theology. I DARE you to cite any free grace website where that notion is taught. I don't expect any response to this request.

In fact, there are 3 parallel passages about inheritance and the kingdom, but you only noted 2. Eph 5:5 says this: For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Note that behavior is noted just like in the other 2 passages in 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5. But Eph 5:5 says "has no inheritance IN the kingdom". iow, they will be IN the kingdom, but have no inheritance IN the kingdom.

Therefore, believers who live like that described in all 3 passages will lose their inheritance IN the kingdom. This refers to rewards, of which all the warning passages are about; not loss of salvation as the Arminians claim.


This nonsense does NOT represent the vast majority of those in free grace theology.


Simply quoting one over the edge nut does not apply to all of free grace theology. I'm sure there are some real nutty types in Calvinism as well, those you would NEVER associate with.

Click to expand...

Don't you believe that when a person confess they believe in Christ they are then saved even if later on they say they no longer believe in Christ? Due to God giving them eternal life from that time they believe in Christ, regardless of what they say they believe or how they live their life later on in their life?

sdowney717 said:

Don't you believe that when a person confess they believe in Christ they are then saved even if later on they say they no longer believe in Christ?

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To be clear, it's not what one says (confesses). It is what one actually believes that results in salvation.

I gave a very clear example of a believer who joined Samuel when he died and he died at the hand of God for his sin.

So even if one later ceases to believe, they are still saved because salvation is guaranteed by the sealing with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1;13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

Further, there are NO verses that warn that if one ceases to believe, they lose salvation.

In fact, such a scenario is actually covered by Paul in Rom 8:38 - 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I bolded the part that covers any future event.

And Jesus Himself noted that some will "believe for a while, and in time of temptation, fall away" in Luke 8:13. Yet nowhere in Scripture do we find any warning that loss of faith results in loss of salvation.

Due to God giving them eternal life from that time they believe in Christ, regardless of what they say they believe or how they live their life later on in their life?

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I believe God's promises. Neither things present, nor things to come, shall separate us from the love of God.

And, eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23. And Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable. It's not very difficult to connect the dots here. Eternal life is irrevocable. Period.

And 1 Thess 5:4-10 contrasts 2 lifestyles; that of the night and that of the day. Those of the night sleep or get drunk. Those of the day are alert and sober. Yet, Paul concludes with this: salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Paul wasn't speaking of literal sleep or being awake, but contrasting lifestyles. Regardless, "we will live together with Him".

FreeGrace2 said:

All you're doing is talking AROUND the issue.

Please explain what the parenthesis relates to in v.5. I say it relates to the phrase "made alive".............

Please explain the parenthesis in v.5.........

So? the point is about 2 phrases in v.5; "made alive" and "having been saved". Did Paul equate them or not? Explain your answer............................

Then explain the parenthesis in v.5 and what it refers to in the verse.............................

Please stick with the issue at hand. Eph 2:5 equates "made alive" with "having been saved". Prove that it does not do that.

Click to expand...

Paul is not "equating" being made alive and being saved by grace. And he was absolutely not "equating" faith with regeneration.

His is simply commenting on what should be obvious to every person who knows what the scriptures teach about the spiritual deadness of mankind.

Obviously Nicodemus is not the only one in need of chastisement for not knowing about this very basic doctrine concerning fallen man.

Paul simply says that God made us alive when we were dead and not able to do anything toward salvation because of this common condition of fallen man. Then he exclaims parenthetically what should also come inescapably to the mind of anyone considering this basic truth about salvation. Salvation is by grace.

Taken as a unit - the passage states that you are saved through faith (duhhh). But that salvation is by grace because it's very beginnings started with an act of grace whereby you were made alive while you were dead.

If we were dead and couldn't understand and respond in faith to the gospel (as the scriptures clearly teach) - then it is an obvious, inescapable and wonderful truth that salvation is by grace from the very beginning.

This truth should stir the heart of every believer. Instead - you have chosen to twist it to support salvation by human effort and merit. Not only have you missed the glorious truth about grace - you have it completely backward from what Paul was exclaiming about the exciting truth of salvation by grace.

What Paul was exclaiming was that it was God who made you alive when you were dead. You could not make yourself alive. It was God. In so doing He made it possible for you to understand and respond to the gospel and be saved through faith in the Word of God.

You were born again by believing the Word of God as Peter tells us. But being born is the result of the invisible work of the Spirit prior to our being born again - as Jesus tells us.

You've got it backward - at least as far as this particular doctrine goes. And, IMO, you have purposefully got it backward in order to escape the concept of election unto salvation through the grace of God.

We could debate the overall issues as we have several times. But one thing is obvious for all to see here. This particular passage does not prove what you say it does concerning the relationship of faith and regeneration.

This is not rocket surgery. What I have said about the passage makes perfect sense.

You want it to say something that it does not say. Saying it over and over again will not make it so.

And, by the way, 1 John 5:1 does not teach that faith and regeneration happen at the same time either. Again - you have brought your theology to a passage and are trying to make it say what it does not say - just the same as with the Ephesians 2:5-8 passage which we have been discussing.

P.S.

I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving day brother.

I sure did. We had a couple of tables full of family.

Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Baptists, Catholics, and Word of Faith.

No theology allowed at the table except for "praise the Lord and pass the gravy".

FreeGrace2 said:

To be clear, it's not what one says (confesses). It is what one actually believes that results in salvation.

I gave a very clear example of a believer who joined Samuel when he died and he died at the hand of God for his sin.

So even if one later ceases to believe, they are still saved because salvation is guaranteed by the sealing with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1;13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

Further, there are NO verses that warn that if one ceases to believe, they lose salvation.

In fact, such a scenario is actually covered by Paul in Rom 8:38 - 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I bolded the part that covers any future event.

And Jesus Himself noted that some will "believe for a while, and in time of temptation, fall away" in Luke 8:13. Yet nowhere in Scripture do we find any warning that loss of faith results in loss of salvation.


I believe God's promises. Neither things present, nor things to come, shall separate us from the love of God.

And, eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23. And Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable. It's not very difficult to connect the dots here. Eternal life is irrevocable. Period.

And 1 Thess 5:4-10 contrasts 2 lifestyles; that of the night and that of the day. Those of the night sleep or get drunk. Those of the day are alert and sober. Yet, Paul concludes with this: salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Paul wasn't speaking of literal sleep or being awake, but contrasting lifestyles. Regardless, "we will live together with Him".

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There is that part about continuing faithful till the end and salvation.
Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Hebrews 3
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

I see two verses saying we are saved and we share in Christ if we are faithful till the very end. Obviously Hebrews 3:12 says an evil heart of unbelief disqualifies you from sharing in Christ, which the writer makes equal to the failure of the wilderness wanderers to enter into God's promises, because of their unbelief. In other words such persons are not saved but will go to hell, as they are unbelievers.
There is such a thing as false brethren who claim to believe but fall away from the truth, so they depart from God's truth, just like the parable of the sower Jesus tells us of.

Hebrews 3
4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Whose house we are IF we endure till the end, thus proving we are born of God.
For those who depart in unbelief, they are not Christ's house, meaning Christ is not in residence in our house, He and the Father have not made their home in us, so unsaved.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Else not having them in our homely little house, means we don't have them indwelling us, meaning we are not saved.

I found this on Facebook, and it speaks directly to the discussion about repentance and works:

Eternal security is false and is heresy.It gives license for immorality and makes people think and believe that they can claim to be Christians ,live like the devil and still be saved.For more info:

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternal-security.htm

jonnox777 said:

Eternal security is false and is heresy.It gives license for immorality and makes people think and believe that they can claim to be Christians ,live like the devil and still be saved.For more info:

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternal-security.htm

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John Calvin would agree that people like this in the link below are not saved. And so would I.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/1cor55_calvinism.htm

In his commentary on 1 John 3:8-10 Calvin says,
"John (the apostle) denied that any one belongs to Christ except he who is righteous and shews himself to be such by his works; ... Hence two conclusions are to be drawn, that those in whom sin reigns cannot be reckoned among the members of Christ, and that they can by no means belong to his body ... all who are born of God lead a righteous and a holy life, because the Spirit of God restrains the lusting of sin ... John not only shews how efficaciously God works once in man, but plainly declares that the Spirit continues his grace in us to the last, so that inflexible perseverance is added to newness of life. Let us not, then, imagine with the Sophists that it is some neutral movement, which leaves men free either to follow or to reject; but let us know that our own hearts are so ruled by God's Spirit, that they constantly cleave to righteousness ... John declares that all who do not live righteously are not of God, because all those whom God calls, he regenerates by his Spirit. Hence newness of life is a perpetual evidence of divine adoption." John Calvin

Election by foreknowledge, for whom God foreknew, He also did predestinate.... to be glorified.
So far only the doctrine of election by grace fits what the scriptures teach. And all other doctrines fall far short.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

You must know none can bring a charge against God's elect, or your fighting against, resisting the Holy Spirit. Unless you are saved by grace, then you're like a wild beast making pontificating statements about spiritual things of which you can know nothing right or good or true.

Marvin Knox said:

Paul is not "equating" being made alive and being saved by grace. And he was absolutely not "equating" faith with regeneration.

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Then please explain what "made alive" means, and why the parenthesis (by grace you have been saved) doesn't relate to being made alive. Simply claiming they are not equated doesn't explain the verse. My explanation is that they ARE equated. Prove why they aren't.

His is simply commenting on what should be obvious to every person who knows what the scriptures teach about the spiritual deadness of mankind.

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Uh, he mentioned being made alive and being saved, all in the same breath. Why are you ignoring that?

Paul simply says that God made us alive when we were dead and not able to do anything toward salvation because of this common condition of fallen man. Then he exclaims parenthetically what should also come inescapably to the mind of anyone considering this basic truth about salvation. Salvation is by grace.

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So then, IF Paul didn't equate being made alive with being saved, then it should follow that one can exist without the other. is that your view? Can one be saved who isn't regenerated, or can one be regenerated without being saved?

Taken as a unit - the passage states that you are saved through faith (duhhh). But that salvation is by grace because it's very beginnings started with an act of grace whereby you were made alive while you were dead.

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Tap dancing lessons are in order here. lol

If we were dead and couldn't understand and respond in faith to the gospel (as the scriptures clearly teach)

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This claim is made repeatedly, yet without any evidence of it.

- then it is an obvious, inescapable and wonderful truth that salvation is by grace from the very beginning.

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This isn't the discussion. It's about what is being equated in v.5, or not. Prove your view.

You've got it backward - at least as far as this particular doctrine goes. And, IMO, you have purposefully got it backward in order to escape the concept of election unto salvation through the grace of God.

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You've proven nothing yet.

We could debate the overall issues as we have several times. But one thing is obvious for all to see here. This particular passage does not prove what you say it does concerning the relationship of faith and regeneration.

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Truth is always easy to prove. So please be my guest.

This is not rocket surgery. What I have said about the passage makes perfect sense.

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You've not proven anything. I do understand your opinion. But it has not been proven. My view is simple: Paul equated the 2 phrases. If he didn't, it should be easy to prove, which you haven't done.

And, by the way, 1 John 5:1 does not teach that faith and regeneration happen at the same time either.

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I never said it teaches that. The verse indicates it, through Greek grammar, which I gave. Prove me wrong.

I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving day brother.

I sure did. We had a couple of tables full of family.

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I did and glad to hear that you did too.

Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Baptists, Catholics, and Word of Faith.

No theology allowed at the table except for "praise the Lord and pass the gravy".

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Well, if it's polite and courteous, it's ok.

sdowney717 said:

There is that part about continuing faithful till the end and salvation.
Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

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Real simple. Check out the context. It's about the Tribulation.

Hebrews 3
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

I see two verses saying we are saved and we share in Christ if we are faithful till the very end.[/QUOT]
The Matt passage is limited to the Tribulation and isn't about eternal soul salvation. Context tells us what will be saved. The Hebrews passage isn't even about salvation. It's about sharing or partnering with Christ. This is about fellowship, not salvation.

Obviously Hebrews 3:12 says an evil heart of unbelief disqualifies you from sharing in Christ, which the writer makes equal to the failure of the wilderness wanderers to enter into God's promises, because of their unbelief.

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And the promises were about eternal reward, which is clearly indicated in Heb 11 and the references to the New Jerusalem. Which is noted in Rev 21. Again, it was about reward, not salvation. We are rewarded for obedience. We are not rewarded with salvation.

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jonnox777 said:

Eternal security is false and is heresy.

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Please prove your opinion. Truth is aways easily proven. And false doctrines are always easy to prove false.

It gives license for immorality and makes people think and believe that they can claim to be Christians ,live like the devil and still be saved.

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Nope. No one needs a license to sin. It comes with our physical bodies. It's called the sin nature. Everyone sins. Any argument about having to license to sin is ridiculous.