Age old issue: free will

grasping the after wind said:

Hopefully one doesn't stop at the beginning.

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Hopefully

DaveW-Ohev said:

You still do not comprehend what free will and what it is not. Growing up in a cave does not impinge free will. Having God decide for me; before I ever existed; does impinge on my free will.

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Prophecies are evidence that we may not be in control.

I have one time received a prophecy through a vision of a future I did not like, although it could be important for me. I have every opportunity to avoid the fate I foresaw and I tried to alter what I saw but 10 year later, the prophecy was fulfilled in clockwork precision. It was as if my actions to avoid it, helped fulfilled the prophecy and I was unaware of what was unfolding.

It did not just happen in one prophetic vision of the future. It was as if someone out there is pushing buttons making sure I ended exactly where I must be at specific points in time and no matter what I think I must do to avoid it, I'll end up in the same situation in the vision. It is as if some things are inevitable.

How free are we if we are bound by sin?
How free are we if we are bound by Righteousness?
Doesn't the scriptures teach us that we would either love the one and hate the other or visa-versa?

timewerx said:

Ever heard of the phrase "If I only knew....." of course, if they only knew, they would have done differently... Therefore, we are not really in control, nor have free will. What controls us is a very ugly word called "ignorance".

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On it's face this argument does not follow. The conclusion does not succeed from the premises. What this assumes is that people are not aware of the alternatives of the choice they originally make. While that may be true in some instances, it is not necessarily true. In fact, I would beg to differ, and assume people are indeed aware of their alternatives, and do not choose those as they are not desirable.

Ignorance does not control us... to make a decision one has to have knowledge of what they are deciding on. They must be aware of it to some extent.

timewerx said:

Ignorance can make you do things you wouldn't do if only you knew, like little mistakes that later on lead to a huge problem, bad decisions, etc... Ignorance of facts, ignorance of the future (lack of foresight/gift of prophecy). And the deadly cycle of letting ignorance place you in perpetual ignorance.

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I just don't think this is true, and even if it is, it's not true for all cases. Just in some cases. A terrorist who detonates a bomb knows full well what the bomb is going to do, as in what the effects could be, how it works, the blast vicinity, and what is in harms way in that vicinity. This is just the a forethought that the human mind is capable of devising.

timewerx said:

So unless you know everything in the Universe in both the physical and spiritual/quantum realm, you aren't really making your own pure choices.

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This also is not true. Absolute certainty is not attainable. That does not mean one cannot attain knowledge or certainty at all, though. If one has knowledge of a situation or object or whatever, it is irrelevant what knowledge or other facts are outside of his scope. You still know about your situation, knowledge in question, etc.

timewerx said:

Your choices will always be influenced by things which you do not know, by ignorance.

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Our choices are influenced, though it is more significant than just ignorance. Most of the time it isn't even that at all. There are various deterministic factors that play a role in the influence of choices.

mikedsjr said:

So you reject the idea that humans can react like Pavlov's dog?

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Not at all. But even Pavlov's dogs had a choice to act that way or not - it was not a pre-programed response to a pre-determined stimulus.

Without free will both the decision to run the test and the dog's reaction were both written in stone thousands or millions of years ago.

The Pavlov effect is a sub-conscious response that can be fought and stopped. That puts it firmly into the realm of free choice.

2KnowHim said:

Doesn't the scriptures teach us that we would either love the one and hate the other or visa-versa?

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Indeed. It is our choice which one we go with.

timewerx said:

Prophecies are evidence that we may not be in control.

I have one time received a prophecy through a vision of a future I did not like, although it could be important for me. I have every opportunity to avoid the fate I foresaw and I tried to alter what I saw but 10 year later, the prophecy was fulfilled in clockwork precision. It was as if my actions to avoid it, helped fulfilled the prophecy and I was unaware of what was unfolding.

It did not just happen in one prophetic vision of the future. It was as if someone out there is pushing buttons making sure I ended exactly where I must be at specific points in time and no matter what I think I must do to avoid it, I'll end up in the same situation in the vision. It is as if some things are inevitable.

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I repeat myself: You are not understanding what free will is.

God preordaining certain things to happen no matter what in no way impinges on free will except in a very narrow issue.
But this is not an issue of linear logic. Hebraic logic is not that at all.

In Hebrew logic God can preordain EVERYTHING; and STILL not impinge on our free will. (western logic has a real problem with that)

DaveW-Ohev said:

I repeat myself: You are not understanding what free will is.

God preordaining certain things to happen no matter what in no way impinges on free will except in a very narrow issue.
But this is not an issue of linear logic. Hebraic logic is not that at all.

In Hebrew logic God can preordain EVERYTHING; and STILL not impinge on our free will. (western logic has a real problem with that)

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If I gave you a prophecy that you will lose your phone on a very specific time and how and the very action you did to avoid it, caused it to happen at exactly the same time and manner as the prophecy. How would you feel if such thing happened?

Something similar happened to me. I did what I believe is my free will but it is not my will that was fulfilled but what was shown to me in a vision.

It makes you think about what Christ said - His duty to find the lost sheep. And I believe those who choose to believe are the lost sheep and those who don't has been predestined not to be saved. It may sound cruel but that's how it seems to be in reality.

timewerx said:

If I gave you a prophecy that you will lose your phone on a very specific time and how and the very action you did to avoid it, caused it to happen at exactly the same time and manner as the prophecy. How would you feel if such thing happened?

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It would make me question the source of the "prophecy." The devil can prophecy too.

It makes you think about what Christ said - His duty to find the lost sheep. And I believe those who choose to believe are the lost sheep and those who don't has been predestined not to be saved. It may sound cruel but that's how it seems to be in reality.

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Yes - came for the lost sheep OF ISRAEL; and ONLY those lost sheep. Keep it in context. That was a time-specific statement that later was expanded to everyone when HE gave the Great Commission. (Acts 1, Mark 16, Matt 28)

We all have the opportunity to come to salvation. The devil tries every trick he knows to get us to choose against it. But either way, the choice is ours.

Think about it - if God is just, how can He condemn someone to eternal infinite torture for roboticly following His decision that they cannot be saved?

DaveW-Ohev said:

It would make me question the source of the "prophecy." The devil can prophecy too.

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To me, they were conveniently superimposed visions. I have many and it goes off so often but I don't pay attention to most of them. As you have said, they could have come from the devil. Some careful analysis is still required, if the events seen in the vision are actually plausible.

Think about it - if God is just, how can He condemn someone to eternal infinite torture for roboticly following His decision that they cannot be saved?

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I'm one of the Christians who do not believe in eternal torture.

And read Christ's encounters with the Pharisees. Many of those encounters make Christ seem not eager to give the Pharisees a chance to change or even be saved, save for a few.


Many would be lucky to even obey God like a robot. Many are in it just to save their skins. It's a premeditated response. Robots on the other hand, will faithfully do their jobs even if they know they won't be saved - this is a gem of quality that's very hard to find in people.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Indeed. It is our choice which one we go with.

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Since when is Love a choice?

mikedsjr said:

I'm not going to bring any light to this topic. I just wanted clarity by those who believe in free will. To what extent is your defense of free will? I believe in free will of some form. But the issue seems to be God doesn't change our free will. I disagree. In fact, I can change your free will. If your will is to go to the beach today, all I have to do is shoot you in the leg and your free will has been hampered. So what extent do you believe God doesn't have the freedom to change your directions?

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If you do shoot me in the foot, then I still have my own free-will to make a choice of what I will then do.

Our free-will is us making decisions each moment of each day. We can and do plan for short term and the long term, but with sin in the world, both our sins and others that sin against us, we are constantly using our free-will in unperfect situations that often change.

That does not mean that we do not have free-will, but that we make different choices based on circumstances and events.

Does that make sense?

cgaviria said:

We choose because he chose. The will of man is subject to the will of God. Not one thing that you choose happens unless God willed for you to do it. I am typing this post right now. Although I am willing for it this to happen, it was actually God who willed for this to happen from the very foundation of the world. This is how deep the power of the Father runs, its incredible and also fearful, hence, the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord.

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I totally disagree.

First and foremost, we all either choose God or do not choose God. That is one of the basics of free-will. God created us this way when He created us in His image.

Christians who are born again through Jesus Christ, have the Holy Spirit of God Himself. One of the attributes of the Holy Spirit is that He convicts us of our sin. However, we do have the choice to follow the Holy Spirit and His convictions or not to. God calls us to Him, but never forces us to do anything.

DaveW-Ohev said:

there is a growing core of people in the SBC that are 5 point Calvinists - no free will.

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They just think that they have no free-will.

They have it though, although they deny it. We all do. It was given to us from the beginning. Adam & Eve had the choice to eat from the Tree of Knowledge or not. To disobey God was a choice, hence free-will. There is no getting around that.

mikedsjr said:

But the issue seems to be God doesn't change our free will. I disagree. In fact, I can change your free will.

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Free will means that God can -- and does -- act upon the hearts and minds of men so that they change their thoughts and actions. For further insight study Nebuchadnezzar and how he changed his ways after being reduced to the status of an animal. Study how Saul the persecutor of the Church was converted to Paul the leading apostle of Christ. The Gospel and the Holy Spirit work on the hearts and minds of sinners to bring them to salvation.